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[MBTI General] STJs + FPs

Forever_Jung

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My ENFP pops and ESTJ younger brother share exactly this kind of bond. My pops makes my brother laugh with his scattershot humor & pushes his intellect with his musings, which are frequently all over the place and longwinded. My brother slays my pops in response with his straightforward cynicism and deadpan little asides. Whenever we're all together on a big holiday or something, they always gravitate towards each other. Humor seems to be the glue between STJs and NFPs.

IT TOTALLY IS! I didn't realize how crucial it is, but now that I think of it, it's so true to my experience.
 

Cimarron

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Reading the first page vs. my own thoughts, it's funny that the FPs seem to be attracted by our differences, whereas I feel attracted by our similarities: Our Fi, as EJCC pointed out (though she framed it as a difference, as well). That Fi seeking out something similar to itself. Maybe this is why STJs and FPs are types usually known for their "high standards", but it's something I admire in them and recognize as an attitude we share.
[MENTION=9883]Redbone[/MENTION]
I enjoyed that feeling of knowing I got special treatment that very few others received and had the privilege of being close to them...
Yes, I love when the people I'm close to realize that. :) I like that concept of having my own private world, privy to few.
 
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five sounds

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My ENFP pops and ESTJ younger brother share exactly this kind of bond. My pops makes my brother laugh with his scattershot humor & pushes his intellect with his musings, which are frequently all over the place and longwinded. My brother slays my pops in response with his straightforward cynicism and deadpan little asides. Whenever we're all together on a big holiday or something, they always gravitate towards each other. Humor seems to be the glue between STJs and NFPs.

haha yeah, i like this too. very true to my experiences.
 

chubber

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Was going to post this about TJs + FPs generally, but didn't want the conversation to turn into an INTJ/ENFP bitchfest, so I'm asking my fellow low-drama STJs about it instead. :drwho:

Looks like it happened anyway...

/INTJ derailing threads.
 

SD45T-2

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Not being aware of the limitations of their innate strengths and assuming they are just as epic when working with people yet treating them like objects and ignoring collateral damage along the way? No.......:whistling:
He treats objects like women, man.[/The Dude]
 
0

011235813

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I'm good friends with several STJs. My best friend from college is an xSTJ.

I don't really have any deep insights on this one other than I like how straightforward and frank they are, no bullshit, we share a similar sense of humor, and they tolerate me and even enjoy me, although they admittedly find me strange. :shrug:

One of my close ENFP friends is married to an ISTJ guy who holds most of her (very wide, very diverse) social circle in the deepest distrust and suspicion because of how "weird" they are but likes me because I'm "funny", even though we have zero cultural similarities in common and I'm the essence of everything he thinks is weird. My best friend is pretty similar in that sense, she's very judgy about most people and doesn't like "weirdness" (as defined in her own head) but we clicked even though we were culturally completely different.

My grandfather, whom I've always been very close to, is an ISTJ. I used to follow him around like a puppy when I was a kid. He took me riding and fed me ice cream and taught me how to math. At this point, I think I'm the only family member he still talks to; he's alienated everyone else because of his insane standards for how people should be. For some reason though, he never tried to impose those standards on me (except for minor stuff like the "right" way to write down or tell someone else your phone number) and doesn't flip out or sulk when I disagree.

I like my STJ friends because they make me feel like they're making an exception for me in their well ordered worlds. But to my credit, I help them write nice emails to people and teach them how to reject romantic overtures nicely. :alttongue:
 

Southern Kross

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Why didn't I see this thread earlier? :huh:

My current theory is that we find their Fi expression to be cathartic, somehow. Since we're so unwilling to express that most of the time.
Really? That's pleasant and interesting thought. I wondered how it would feel to you guys.

It fascinates me why TJs (particularly ExTJs) have any interest in connecting to Fi. Part of me struggles to comprehend what the hell they could get out of it. Maybe its a misconception but it seems to me that TJs seem to see Fi as equivalent to weakness (in the broadest sense of the word). Actually what I'm talking about is less developed TJs, because as they get older they seem to soften and are less critical of Fi qualities. But really, I remember so many occasions where (often younger) TJs seem offended by my Fi-ness - like they couldn't stand how backward it was. I just don't how they can go from that reaction to feeling pleasure in it. It's also hard for me to get why someone so driven by hard logic and so self-assured in the way they see the world (as TJs generally are) would slowly back away from that over time. I know in theory that they're discovering the complexities of the world and learning to live with the 'grey areas', but still...

I have to say though, there are few things more disarmingly charming than a TJ (again, particularly a ExTJ) momentarily displaying strong Fi traits. It makes me go all mushy inside to see pillars of strength give a little.

Edit: FPs, feel free to post your view as well -- be it why you're drawn to STJs, or why STJs are drawn to you. :)
Relating to what I said above, I don't think you guys realise how overwhelming the endless complexities of the world can be for us NFPs. It's tiring to deal with reality on a case by case basis. Te can just cut through the crap like a knife and get right to the crux of the matter, which can feel like lifting a huge mental burden. It brings clarity where once there was confusion and mental disarray. STJs in general have this (what I call a) restorative quality. It's like when things get off track they bring things back to where they need to be. It's a protective quality but it also renews our awareness and appreciation of what is important.
 

chubber

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Why didn't I see this thread earlier? :huh:


Really? That's interesting thought.

It fascinates me why TJs (particularly ExTJs) have any interest in connecting to Fi. Part of me struggles to comprehend what the hell they could get out of it. Maybe its a misconception but it seems to me that TJs seem to see Fi as equivalent to weakness (in the broadest sense of the word). Actually what I'm talking about is less developed TJs, because as they get older they seem to soften and are less critical of Fi qualities. But really, I remember so many occasions where (often younger) TJs seem offended by my Fi-ness - like they couldn't stand how backward it was. I just don't how they can go from that reaction to feeling pleasure in it. It's also hard for me to get why someone so driven by hard logic and so self-assured in the way they see the world (as TJs generally are) would slowly back away from that over time. I know in theory that they're discovering the complexities of the world and learning to live with the 'grey areas', but still...

I have to say though, there are few things more disarmingly charming than a TJ (again, particularly a ExTJ) momentarily displaying strong Fi traits. It makes me go all mushy inside to see pillars of strength give a little.


Relating to what I said above, I don't think you guys realise how overwhelming the endless complexities of the world can be for us NFPs. It's tiring to deal with reality on a case by case basis. Te can just cut through the crap like a knife and get right to the crux of the matter, which can feel like lifting a huge mental burden. It brings clarity where once there was confusion and mental disarray. STJs in general have this (what I call a) restorative quality. It's like when things get off track they bring things back to where they need to be. It's a protective quality but it also renews our awareness and appreciation of what is important.

Maybe this might explain it?

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/development.html

Let's take a look at Grant's phases of development, using the INFJ Personality Type as an example:

From age 0 - 6 years
At this early age, we use all four of the functions in an indiscriminate fashion. We "try on" the different functions for size, determining which ones work best for us. The little INFJ has not yet emerged as any particular personality type, although his parents may notice trends in behavior which appear to have the characteristics of one or more types.

From 6 - 12 years
During this phase, our dominant function begins to develop and assert itself. Our young INFJ begins to appear dreamy and introspective - he begins to prefer to use his iNtuition to take in information, and he chooses to do this alone (Introverted). The dominant function of "Introverted iNtuition" begins to show itself as the prevailing aspect of his personality.

From 12 - 20 years
The auxiliary function asserts itself as a powerful support to the dominant function. Since all recent studies point towards the importance of a well-developed team of dominant AND auxiliary functions, this is an important time of "self-identification". Research suggests that people without a strong auxiliary function to complement their dominant function have real problems.
In our INFJ example, we see the auxiliary Feeling function come to the front during this phase as a support to the dominant iNtuitive function. Since the INFJ's dominant function is an Information Gathering function, the auxilary function must be a Decision Making one. Without a Decision Making process, we would flounder about and never get anything done! As the auxilary Feeling process comes forth, the INFJ begins to develop the ability to make decisions based on his personal value system. This auxiliary decision making process will be Extraverted, since the dominant function is Introverted. Since the decision making function is Extraverted, our subject now emerges as a "Judger", rather than a "Perceiver". Our INFJ Personality Type is now pretty firmly set in place, and we know the dominance ordering of the four functions.

From 20 - 35 years
We begin to use our tertiary function more frequently and with better success. Our INFJ begins to use his Introverted Thinking function. He continues to make judgments with his Extreverted Feeling auxiliary function, but he also begins to make judgments based on logic and reason, which he works through in his own mind, rather than discussing it with others.

From 35 - 50 years
We pay attention to our fourth, inferior function. We feel a need to develop it and use it more effectively. Our INFJ begins to use his Extraverted Sensing function. He becomes more aware of his surroundings and begins to take in information from others in a more literal, practical sense. He continues to rely on his dominant Introverted iNtuitive function to take in information, but he is more able to use his Extraverted Sensing function than he has been before in his life. Some researchers have attested that the appearance of our inferior functions at this phase of life may be responsible for what we commonly call the "mid-life crisis".

From 50 onwards
From this age until our deaths, we have accessibility to all four functions. However, we use them in a more disciplined, differentiated manner than when we were very young. Our basic Personality Type continues to assert itself, but we are able to call upon all four functions when needed.
 

Southern Kross

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Thanks. I've read that before but forgot where I saw it. It's good to go over it again.

But again, I understand that stuff in theory, it's just baffling to me when it comes to TJs. I suppose part of the problem is that being a FP, as I mature I start to move toward the things the TJs are backing away from.

It's hard to explain. It just doesn't quite click for me
 

chubber

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Thanks. I've read that before but forgot where I saw it. It's good to go over it again.

But again, I understand that stuff in theory, it's just baffling to me when it comes to TJs. I suppose part of the problem is that being a FP, as I mature I start to move toward the things the TJs are backing away from.

It's hard to explain. It just doesn't quite click for me

I thought it might explain why the ESTJ would move into the Dominant and Auxiliary territory of the INFP. Because from the age of 20, they develop Tertiary Ne and then develop Inferior Fi from 35 onwards. The idea is, that they are well developed from the age of 50+ That neither the dominant, nor inferior matters any more, and they all have equal strength.
 

Southern Kross

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I thought it might explain why the ESTJ would move into the Dominant and Auxiliary territory of the INFP. Because from the age of 20, they develop Tertiary Ne and then develop Inferior Fi from 35 onwards. The idea is, that they are well developed from the age of 50+ That neither the dominant, nor inferior matters any more, and they all have equal strength.
I get that. I guess I'm more confused by the complexities of the "why" than the "what".
 

Elfboy

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[MENTION=13147]senza tema[/MENTION]
I don't really have any deep insights on this one other than I like how straightforward and frank they are, no bullshit, we share a similar sense of humor, and they tolerate me and even enjoy me, although they admittedly find me strange
me too. as much as I feel I'm being direct in my own mind, putting things in simple terms for people is something I've had to work on a lot. (it helps to write down bullet points). STJs are straight to the point. nothing extra, no bullshit, yes the facts and the necessary protocol.
[MENTION=20044]calb[/MENTION]
I don't think which is the dominant and inferior function "doesn't matter anymore" by age 50. your example makes sense overall though. in my teens, I thought I was a hot shot with Te, but the reality was that I had shitty organizational abilities, didn't know how to plan and was mistaking my intuition for "thinking". I've always been distrustful of empirical evidence which didn't match my hunches, but, in my early 20s, I'm learning to take it into consideration more, even if it's not my preferred means.
 

EJCC

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I like my STJ friends because they make me feel like they're making an exception for me in their well ordered worlds.
:laugh: Oh my god, I hadn't even thought about it that way, but we totally do that. My ENFP best friend lives as an exception to every rule I have about everything -- the way she lives her life is so counterintuitive to me that I have to just shake my head at her antics and keep quiet. But I stick around because...
But to my credit, I help them write nice emails to people and teach them how to reject romantic overtures nicely. :alttongue:
... of that ^

(Also, the humor "click" that other people have mentioned, and various other things listed earlier in the thread.)
Reading the first page vs. my own thoughts, it's funny that the FPs seem to be attracted by our differences, whereas I feel attracted by our similarities: Our Fi, as EJCC pointed out (though she framed it as a difference, as well). That Fi seeking out something similar to itself. Maybe this is why STJs and FPs are types usually known for their "high standards", but it's something I admire in them and recognize as an attitude we share.
You're right that it is something shared, technically. We speak the same Fi language -- not like when you're talking to an Fe user and are privy to having your Fi dismissed, unless you explain it properly. (Which is difficult!)
[MENTION=9883]Redbone[/MENTION] Yes, I love when the people I'm close to realize that. :) I like that concept of having my own private world, privy to few.
I wonder if this is related to instinctual variants as well, but I struggle between that extreme and the opposite extreme, where I let everyone in and try to be everyone's friend. But how that ends up in practice (due to lack of energy and some serious boundary-setting), is that everyone is friends with that 25% of me. I get the impression sometimes that people don't realize there's more to me under there, but the closer the friend, the more they see of that. So that gradual reveal is something that appeals to me as well :)
It fascinates me why TJs (particularly ExTJs) have any interest in connecting to Fi. Part of me struggles to comprehend what the hell they could get out of it. Maybe its a misconception but it seems to me that TJs seem to see Fi as equivalent to weakness (in the broadest sense of the word). Actually what I'm talking about is less developed TJs, because as they get older they seem to soften and are less critical of Fi qualities. But really, I remember so many occasions where (often younger) TJs seem offended by my Fi-ness - like they couldn't stand how backward it was. I just don't how they can go from that reaction to feeling pleasure in it. It's also hard for me to get why someone so driven by hard logic and so self-assured in the way they see the world (as TJs generally are) would slowly back away from that over time. I know in theory that they're discovering the complexities of the world and learning to live with the 'grey areas', but still...
Can't speak for other ExTJs, but a big part of how I've been able to get better with that, over time, has been through attempts to introspect as objectively as possible. Analyzing the anger and fear that Fi can create in me. Asking myself: "Why does this freak you out? Is it really going to do you any harm?" It's still not my favorite thing, but now at least I'm more forgiving of it in other people, and I recognize its necessity within myself.

I also had a moment of awakening last year, when my ENFP friend (and I think a few Fi-users on this forum?) pretty much told me that they would PREFER if I showed more Fi. That I'd end up being a better and much more reciprocal friend, if I was more open with that soft side. Like...
I have to say though, there are few things more disarmingly charming than a TJ (again, particularly a ExTJ) momentarily displaying strong Fi traits. It makes me go all mushy inside to see pillars of strength give a little.
... that sort of comment. ^ I wanted to be the best friend that I could be, so I adapted. :)
Relating to what I said above, I don't think you guys realise how overwhelming the endless complexities of the world can be for us NFPs. It's tiring to deal with reality on a case by case basis. Te can just cut through the crap like a knife and get right to the crux of the matter, which can feel like lifting a huge mental burden. It brings clarity where once there was confusion and mental disarray. STJs in general have this (what I call a) restorative quality. It's like when things get off track they bring things back to where they need to be. It's a protective quality but it also renews our awareness and appreciation of what is important.
:heart: Excellent. This is what I aim for.
 

Amargith

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[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] And it does not bother you that your ENFP friend breaks all the rules you hold so dear? I always end up feeling like I'm having my 'bad behaviour' excused while I don't deserve it when that happens :unsure:
 

Southern Kross

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Can't speak for other ExTJs, but a big part of how I've been able to get better with that, over time, has been through attempts to introspect as objectively as possible. Analyzing the anger and fear that Fi can create in me. Asking myself: "Why does this freak you out? Is it really going to do you any harm?" It's still not my favorite thing, but now at least I'm more forgiving of it in other people, and I recognize its necessity within myself.
Interesting. So do you mean that you slowly become more aware of those underlying Fi drives within yourself and how much they undermine your intentions/goals/decisions etc? Is it something you try to conquer or more a process of release?

I also had a moment of awakening last year, when my ENFP friend (and I think a few Fi-users on this forum?) pretty much told me that they would PREFER if I showed more Fi. That I'd end up being a better and much more reciprocal friend, if I was more open with that soft side. Like...

... that sort of comment. ^ I wanted to be the best friend that I could be, so I adapted. :)
But doesn't that feel like compromising yourself? Or is it just a relief to let go a little?

Also are you really able to choose to show your softer side? In other words, is it something you consciously withhold until the right time? I just find it interesting that you see it as an option, rather than a background aspect of yourself that you don't have much control over.

But then I suppose I am getting to the point where I can choose to show Te. More and more I can decide to deal with a situation with Te rather than filter it through Fi. :thinking:
 

Cimarron

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...is that everyone is friends with that 25% of me. I get the impression sometimes that people don't realize there's more to me under there, but the closer the friend, the more they see of that.
I agree with that, too, except I think my friends and acquaintances are aware that they're only seeing a portion of me. Though with my best friends, it's probably more like 80%.
Also are you really able to choose to show your softer side? In other words, is it something you consciously withhold until the right time?
Tangentially related to this, I've been on dates before where afterward it was said, "If you were into her, you clearly would have shown more interest." For me, though, withholding that is my natural state. :alttongue: So it seems pretty conscious.

But really, I remember so many occasions where (often younger) TJs seem offended by my Fi-ness - like they couldn't stand how backward it was. I just don't how they can go from that reaction to feeling pleasure in it.
and also [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]

Well, if your Fi was more "visible", I think that might be off-putting for some STJs. I guess I tend to admire Fi when it's used more indirectly, and you can see its effects through other means, like looking at a building and admiring the builder who you never saw or met or know anything about. It's still true that I don't handle well when people get "emotional", and I usually don't appreciate rule-breakers who just like to show how Rule-Breakerish they are, but if it has a solid principle behind it, I can (often slowly, sometimes quickly) support that, too. If I don't know you, I'll probably assume it's the former, but if we're friends, I trust your judgment to some extent and probably assume it's the latter. :D But that really varies based on situation.
 

Southern Kross

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Tangentially related to this, I've been on dates before where afterward it was said, "If you were into her, you clearly would have shown more interest." For me, though, withholding that is my natural state. :alttongue: So it seems pretty conscious.
Me too :ninja:

Well, if your Fi was more "visible", I think that might be off-putting for some STJs. I guess I tend to admire Fi when it's used more indirectly, and you can see its effects through other means, like looking at a building and admiring the builder who you never saw or met or know anything about. It's still true that I don't handle well when people get "emotional", and I usually don't appreciate rule-breakers who just like to show how Rule-Breakerish they are, but if it has a solid principle behind it, I can (often slowly, sometimes quickly) support that, too. If I don't know you, I'll probably assume it's the former, but if we're friends, I trust your judgment to some extent and probably assume it's the latter. :D But that really varies based on situation.
Hmmm. I'm just trying to think of a time when my Fi is very loud. Usually it's when I'm arguing some bleeding heart liberal agenda, but even this is more tempered with Te now. I had an impassioned, but not heated debate with my INTJ friend about homeless people the other day. I was quite proud of myself for presenting my ideas in a semi-Te manner and actually getting him to a point where he didn't have a counter-argument on one aspect. Proud not because I wanted to win (although it is incredible to be able to out-argue him, a master of debate, on any subject :yesss: ) so much as I was able to debate on more equal terms and keep up. It's not always easy to order my thoughts in the moment like that. Si+Te is helping me to form a memory bank of well-thought out arguments, though.

Also I do have this (Fi-Ne) ditsy/silly streak that does seem to be a major STJ repellent (although it was more present before my mid 20s). The expressive sighs and eye rolling can be deafening. :D Sadly, a ENTJ school friend I had basically became an enemy over this trait as we got into our late teens. She used to rip me apart and publicly humiliate me whenever it happened.
 

PeaceBaby

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But then I suppose I am getting to the point where I can choose to show Te. More and more I can decide to deal with a situation with Te rather than filter it through Fi. :thinking:

No, I don't think that's really what's happening. Te is still colored by the lenses of the preceding functions. The motivation for "being" Te will always be driven by Fi. I think of it as accepting the risk or consequences ... that to me is the choice. I've found in myself I can suppress the resulting emotional elements only for so long. They are never NOT participating.

---------------------

Overall, I think some of this discussion is mixing up emotion with Fi. I might come back to this thread later and tease open the strands.
 

Southern Kross

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No, I don't think that's really what's happening. Te is still colored by the lenses of the preceding functions. The motivation for "being" Te will always be driven by Fi.
Absolutely. I didn't mean it in a literal sense - I was only describing how it 'feels'.

I think of it as accepting the risk or consequences ... that to me is the choice. I've found in myself I can suppress the resulting emotional elements only for so long. They are never NOT participating.
I don't really see that way exactly. It feels like a decision not to internalise something negative (or not to internalise as much - if that makes sense), and to instead deal with it externally in a particular way that's hard to describe. I suppose I would say it's finding some external closure as a way of preventing me stressing over it. It's usually something that I don't need to internalise and fret over, so in that sense it is a healthier thing for me.

Although, this may all be merely an illusionary impression I guess. Or it could be down to being a e4.
 
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