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[MBTI General] ESTJs and ISTJs being busy

SilkRoad

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I have a question about ESTJ/ISTJ "busyness".

I understand that ESTJs and ISTJs are basically busy, hard-working types who base quite a lot of their sense of self and accomplishment on getting a lot done. So, a happy and healthy ESTJ or ISTJ would probably be hard-working. (It's hard to imagine otherwise).

However, I also get the feeling that these types will throw themselves into hard work and general "busyness" specifically to avoid things like: uncomfortable emotional situations, people they're trying to ignore, deeper reflections on their lives, etc.

This is really general and I'm not sure where I'm going with it ;) but I was wondering if you guys could fill me in on how "healthy busy" and "unhealthy/avoidant busy" might show up in different xSTJs.

Thanks!
 

violet_crown

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My dad's ESTJ. From what I can tell, work is caring to him. It's tangible evidence of his responsibility, but also how he marks what's in his sphere of existence--what matters to him--and he assumes the same meaning for everyone else. He leads by example. He works his hardest to indicate how he feels things ought to be done, and takes it as a sign of disrespect if after being shown the "correct" way to do things someone choses to do otherwise.

There are two things that come to mind when thinking of the unhealthy side of work for him. The complication goes back to the fact that work equates to caring for him. Work can show up where it's not wanted as a kind of demand. It's the INFP shadow that rears it's head and gets hurt that leads to problems, "I've done for you. I shouldn't have to ask for you to do for me, too." When dad's really stressed this goes into overdrive for him. He's a stress cleaner. It's awful for everyone when dad gets into a stress clean mode and no one pitches in. It's like he put in all the hours that he ought to, then went over and above and still no one recognizes him. For ESTJs, at least, if they're working they're not avoiding, but there can still be that desperate edge. There's something that needs to be mollified.
 

SilkRoad

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^ Thank you, that is helpful. So it sounds like it has something to do with wanting to be recognized...well, that does fit with the xSTJs I have known

My brother is ISTJ and he always had much more of a desire to be "recognized" (in a sort of fame/hard work kind of way) than I do. It is very difficult to talk to him about anything except his work, which is admittedly very interesting and absorbing, but I don't understand the degree to which it IS his life. He doesn't really do anything anymore which isn't work-related, but he's managed to find a work niche for himself which involves most of his main interests, I guess. It feels to me like he's avoiding deeper things, though (ie. emotionally.) But I'm not him, so...
 

Owfin

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I often say I'm busy when I'm in the middle of something. I hate interruptions.

But other than that, busy is more like something that happens as a side effect of doing stuff. I don't try to be busy! I experience more the desire to get out of having crammed up time than I do trying to push things aside by squeezing them away.
 

violet_crown

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^ Thank you, that is helpful. So it sounds like it has something to do with wanting to be recognized...well, that does fit with the xSTJs I have known

My brother is ISTJ and he always had much more of a desire to be "recognized" (in a sort of fame/hard work kind of way) than I do. It is very difficult to talk to him about anything except his work, which is admittedly very interesting and absorbing, but I don't understand the degree to which it IS his life. He doesn't really do anything anymore which isn't work-related, but he's managed to find a work niche for himself which involves most of his main interests, I guess. It feels to me like he's avoiding deeper things, though (ie. emotionally.) But I'm not him, so...

What kind of things do you think he ought to be pursuing?
 

SilkRoad

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What kind of things do you think he ought to be pursuing?

Oh, it's not that I think his work is bad or anything. He seems to find it fascinating and satisfying and it is about as interesting as work can get. But it just doesn't seem well-rounded to me. I need a lot more in my life than interesting work (and my work is fairly interesting); I also need a variety of friends, spirituality, relationships or the possibility for them, etc. It doesn't seem like he has much of that, but then, it may just be that he's very private about it all. He has a lot of no-go areas, it seems.
 

EJCC

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I understand that ESTJs and ISTJs are basically busy, hard-working types who base quite a lot of their sense of self and accomplishment on getting a lot done. So, a happy and healthy ESTJ or ISTJ would probably be hard-working. (It's hard to imagine otherwise).

However, I also get the feeling that these types will throw themselves into hard work and general "busyness" specifically to avoid things like: uncomfortable emotional situations, people they're trying to ignore, deeper reflections on their lives, etc.

This is really general and I'm not sure where I'm going with it ;) but I was wondering if you guys could fill me in on how "healthy busy" and "unhealthy/avoidant busy" might show up in different xSTJs.
I'd say that xSTJs aren't busy with the aim of avoiding things; I think the avoiding things happens as a consequence of being busy, most of the time.

But there are a lot of instances, both with healthy and unhealthy ESTJs, when they use business to avoid things. e.g. When xSTJs are stressed, they can get caught up in their Ne, and start avoiding more important things by doing busy-work, i.e. things that still have to be done but just aren't as high priority (like what Wind-Up Rex said about stress cleaning). Also, one common xSTJ coping mechanism in the face of tough times or a personal trauma is to push the emotion away and just Deal With Everything Else. You might see an xSTJ whose family member has just died, being the one person in the family who isn't a wreck about it, because someone has to deal with the funeral arrangements, and plan out the estate sale, and deal with everything calmly and objectively when obviously no one else is being calm or objective. (Later, their emotions might blow up out of nowhere, or if they're an ISTJ they might be able to hold it all in until they're in private)
My dad's ESTJ. From what I can tell, work is caring to him. It's tangible evidence of his responsibility, but also how he marks what's in his sphere of existence--what matters to him--and he assumes the same meaning for everyone else. He leads by example. He works his hardest to indicate how he feels things ought to be done, and takes it as a sign of disrespect if after being shown the "correct" way to do things someone choses to do otherwise.

There are two things that come to mind when thinking of the unhealthy side of work for him. The complication goes back to the fact that work equates to caring for him. Work can show up where it's not wanted as a kind of demand. It's the INFP shadow that rears it's head and gets hurt that leads to problems, "I've done for you. I shouldn't have to ask for you to do for me, too." When dad's really stressed this goes into overdrive for him. He's a stress cleaner. It's awful for everyone when dad gets into a stress clean mode and no one pitches in. It's like he put in all the hours that he ought to, then went over and above and still no one recognizes him. For ESTJs, at least, if they're working they're not avoiding, but there can still be that desperate edge. There's something that needs to be mollified.
Boy, does all of this ring true! The bolded is something that annoys the shit out of me in other people, but sometimes I slip into :doh: and I have to force myself out of. I need to remind myself sometimes: If I want something done, I shouldn't passive-aggressively wait for someone to do it if they don't know that they're supposed to. The concept of reminding people of things exists for a reason.
Oh, it's not that I think his work is bad or anything. He seems to find it fascinating and satisfying and it is about as interesting as work can get. But it just doesn't seem well-rounded to me. I need a lot more in my life than interesting work (and my work is fairly interesting); I also need a variety of friends, spirituality, relationships or the possibility for them, etc. It doesn't seem like he has much of that, but then, it may just be that he's very private about it all. He has a lot of no-go areas, it seems.
^ I get where you're coming from, more than where he's coming from, in a lot of ways. But then again I have so many interests that I would be sad without -- and I am so intensely territorial about maintaining what little free time I have, that some people in my life used to think that I cared more about having fun than doing well in school etc :laugh: but the thing is, if I don't guard that time with my life, then I won't have it, and life would suck.

Privacy must have a lot to do with it; my dad is an INTP and he used to do the same thing, i.e. work, dinner/chatting, TV, bed, every day. But I think he gets a lot of satisfaction from time on the computer, and he finds 5w4 privacy and creative outlet in various places throughout the day, at work and at home. I wonder if that's the case with your ISTJ brother, too.
 

Mia.

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However, I also get the feeling that these types will throw themselves into hard work and general "busyness" specifically to avoid things like: uncomfortable emotional situations, people they're trying to ignore, deeper reflections on their lives, etc.

This is really general and I'm not sure where I'm going with it ;) but I was wondering if you guys could fill me in on how "healthy busy" and "unhealthy/avoidant busy" might show up in different xSTJs.

Thanks!

Yes. And if nothing is readily available they will invent something mechanical, laborious, and time-consuming to do as if their lives and everyone else's depended on it..... like Farmville on Facebook.
 

tinker683

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I have a question about ESTJ/ISTJ "busyness".

I understand that ESTJs and ISTJs are basically busy, hard-working types who base quite a lot of their sense of self and accomplishment on getting a lot done. So, a happy and healthy ESTJ or ISTJ would probably be hard-working. (It's hard to imagine otherwise).

However, I also get the feeling that these types will throw themselves into hard work and general "busyness" specifically to avoid things like: uncomfortable emotional situations, people they're trying to ignore, deeper reflections on their lives, etc.

This is really general and I'm not sure where I'm going with it ;) but I was wondering if you guys could fill me in on how "healthy busy" and "unhealthy/avoidant busy" might show up in different xSTJs.

Thanks!

I wonder though if this is better/more productive than what I do in such situations: utterly withdrawal from everyone and cry for hours on end :cry:
 

SilkRoad

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I wonder though if this is better/more productive than what I do in such situations: utterly withdrawal from everyone and cry for hours on end :cry:

Perhaps "more productive", but likely to make the xSTJ run themselves into the ground and implode, I'd say...
 

tinker683

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Perhaps "more productive", but likely to make the xSTJ run themselves into the ground and implode, I'd say...

Perhaps.

So then, it is your contention that us big strong SJ manly-men should learn to let out a few man tears every now and then? :coffee:

Please note: I'm just trolling you now, albeit very badly

ETA: Just realized that a guy with a male angel holding a woman really shouldn't be throwing around terms like "manly-men"... :blush:
 

SilkRoad

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Perhaps.

So then, it is your contention that us big strong SJ manly-men should learn to let out a few man tears every now and then? :coffee:

Please note: I'm just trolling you now, albeit very badly

ETA: Just realized that a guy with a male angel holding a woman really shouldn't be throwing around terms like "manly-men"... :blush:


Ummm... I am not at all kidding when I say that an SJ manly-man letting out the occasional manly tears is like MY DREAM GUY!!!!

:blush:
 

tinker683

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Ummm... I am not at all kidding when I say that an SJ manly-man letting out the occasional manly tears is like MY DREAM GUY!!!!

:blush:

O rly?

I guess I can see why my INFJ digged me the way she did... :)
 

SilkRoad

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O rly?

I guess I can see why my INFJ digged me the way she did... :)

Well, all that said I might be slightly atypical INFJ in that regard. The fact that I'm ISFJ-like rather than INTJ-like might have something to do with it. Not sure. A lot of INFJs seem to be very much inclined to N partners only. But in any case, I do have a thing for manly men. At least ones who are reasonably sensitive. :laugh:
 

tinker683

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Well, all that said I might be slightly atypical INFJ in that regard. The fact that I'm ISFJ-like rather than INTJ-like might have something to do with it. Not sure. A lot of INFJs seem to be very much inclined to N partners only. But in any case, I do have a thing for manly men. At least ones who are reasonably sensitive. :laugh:

:)

Anyway, back to the topic...

I am not an xSTJ but I can get like that sometimes. More often than not for me its just frustration not so much at the problem at hand but rather at how whatever it is that's really bothering me has so much power over me that its like a chain or bag of bricks and some part of me just screams, "No, fuck you, I'm GOING to keep pushing forward and FUCK YOU FOR TRYING TO KEEP ME DOWN!!"

....or something like that :blush:
 

SilkRoad

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:)

Anyway, back to the topic...

I am not an xSTJ but I can get like that sometimes. More often than not for me its just frustration not so much at the problem at hand but rather at how whatever it is that's really bothering me has so much power over me that its like a chain or bag of bricks and some part of me just screams, "No, fuck you, I'm GOING to keep pushing forward and FUCK YOU FOR TRYING TO KEEP ME DOWN!!"

....or something like that :blush:

Frankly, I wish I had the problem of being a workaholic (or something like that) when stressed or unhappy. At least I'd get more done. INstead, it seems like my world descends into chaos, I realise my apartment hasn't been cleaned properly for far too long, I've just spent two days in bed paralyzed with awful thoughts, etc. :(
 

tinker683

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Frankly, I wish I had the problem of being a workaholic (or something like that) when stressed or unhappy. At least I'd get more done. INstead, it seems like my world descends into chaos, I realise my apartment hasn't been cleaned properly for far too long, I've just spent two days in bed paralyzed with awful thoughts, etc. :(

Hmm...

Yeah, as I said earlier, when I do get really stressed my normal response is to withdrawal, sometimes from everyone and everything. The problem is I can only do that for so long. After a while I get intolerant of it and throw myself into things because I'm trying of feeling so damned useless all the time and its like I need to overcompensate for that feeling by constantly keeping myself busy.
 

Giggly

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I have known an STJ or two who have deliberately busied themselves with work to completely avoid other things that they are uncomfortable or not as proficient in but I don't think all of them do that. Like EJCC said, for some of them the avoidance is just a consequence, not the cause. It takes time and intuition to tell the difference between the two and with the former, the "work" excuse just won't add up.
 

Habba

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I have problems concentrating on many things at the same time or divide my attention in many places. More than once I've acted as if I'm so busy that I can't do anything else but the task at hand. Even when I'm not doing that task. Worst case scenario is when I want to avoid that task, but still remain "being busy".

For example, few months back I was to write my candidate's thesis. I really hate writing scientific text (don't ask why I chose to go to university) and it took me months to write this very short work. The whole time I was "writing", I tried to avoid in any other lengthy project or time consuming thing. That resulted me just being stressed for a long time and wasting my time doing nothing. I'm noticing this feature is wrecking havoc with my social interactions. I appear to be very busy to my friends all the time, meanwhile I do nothing but waste time.

An example how I'm unable to divide my attention would be when I'm talking to two or more people at the same time in chat/messenger (one-to-one connections, not multichatting). I feel very stressed about having to share my attention with many people at the same time. This makes me look very uninvolved with all the participants. This makes me look distant to people.

On the more positive side, I'm very good at concentrating in one task at a time, even for a long time. Just few weeks back I took part in Global Game Jam (48h game creation event) in which I practically coded through the whole weekend, sleeping only total of 5 hours. I loved it how much I could commit to the team effort.

So, I'm really just a guy who can handle only one thing at a time. If I can't handle it (and can't put it aside), it will be bad for me. But if I can, it will be great. :)
 

SD45T-2

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I suggest you watch this movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113277/ I highly recommend the 2 disc special edition. If you don't rewatch it with Michael Mann's commentary you'll only get the tip of the iceberg.

Vincent Hanna (Al Pacino) is the most thoroughly/accurately ESTJ character I can think of. He's a workaholic under a ton of stress and his life is a wreck as a result. My life is not at all like his, but as an ESTJ I could easily relate to him, and almost everything he did and said rang true to me.

Neil McCauley (Robert De Niro) is an INTJ 8w9 sp/sx.

I'm somewhat of a nerd when it comes to guns/ammo/ballistics/tactics and I could go on and on about why Heat is one of the best and most accurate movies you'll ever see in regards to that stuff, but that aspect probably doesn't interest you very much. :D
 
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