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  1. #21
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ that's very interesting @Owfin; my husband (an ESTJ), in response to trying to imagine a future possibility (for example, a new job) will say, "How do I know I will like this? I don't know what this will be like. I might really hate it." Sometimes that means he takes no action to find out rather than actually trying to it find out if it is right for him.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin View Post
    Ni seems to create a future concept of how they want things to be and look into it with the same conviction I would to a concept that is existing. They seem to say "Oh, I want a treehouse" and then once they have an idea of a treehouse, they can start waxing on the feeling of being in a treehouse. It seems a bit strange to me. They see what they are working towards as the "big picture". It doesn't seem to be bigger or smaller than my own picture, but where I consider understanding my own current information to be crucial, they consider it essential to understand their prediction of the future. To me it seems like a bit of a waste of effort, because the future is unreliable. Below I put my idea of a argument between very disagreeable versions of them (I apologize if I make it seem like Ni is worse or has worse arguments- it's just that I can create reasonable Si arguments much more easily than Ni ones because I am familiar with a Si line of reasoning):

    Si: "How do you know what a treehouse is like?"
    Ni: "I know what my treehouse is going to be like."
    Si: "But how? You've never been in a treehouse."
    Ni: "Well my idea of a treehouse has me feeling like X"
    Si: "That doesn't make it true."
    Ni: "Is your motto 'prove it' or something?"
    Si: "No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying that you can't make observations about events that haven't happened."
    Ni: "You can predict."
    Si: "But you are talking about the future like it actually exists right now!"
    Ni: "You are so stuck in the past!"
    Si: "You think that the future is going to be one way just because you think it is!"
    Ni:
    Si:
    Hahah (I wouldn't say the Ni responses are spot on, but they give a good enough impression of what bothers you about them)...so, when I was reading this, one word that popped up into my mind in connection with Ni was imagination (which in my experience tends to be very true).

    Perhaps the big picture thing is related more to generality and abstraction: our general and abstract grasp of general and abstract images and the connections between them that we tend to "base" our predictions of the future on. But then, are Si users more concerned with concrete data?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    But then, are Si users more concerned with concrete data?
    Eh, not really. I think Si and Ni types have a different idea of the abstract, though. For Si, an abstract thing can be very specific, such as the word "open" (as in a open floorplan). You can't define the point where a room becomes open.
    I don't see any invisible treasure chests.

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  4. #24
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin View Post
    Eh, not really. I think Si and Ni types have a different idea of the abstract, though. For Si, an abstract thing can be very specific, such as the word "open" (as in a open floorplan). You can't define the point where a room becomes open.
    Wow, I would never consider 'open' to be abstract. To me, it falls into the more general concrete category (as opposed to 'floorplan,' which would be more specific concrete). It has to do with visuals. To me, abstract is more like the word 'justice,' which has no connection to anything tangible.

    I'm not saying either definition is incorrect; I'm just showing that you're right in that we have different definitions of it.

    I asked my ISFP mother about this to get another sensor's input. She actually said the same as I was thinking, that she considers 'open' to be concrete since it has to do with something you see. So it could be that Si vs Se is a factor as well in determining how you consider something abstract. Just speculating . . .
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  5. #25
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun
    But then, are Si users more concerned with concrete data?
    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin
    Eh, not really. I think Si and Ni types have a different idea of the abstract, though. For Si, an abstract thing can be very specific, such as the word "open" (as in a open floorplan). You can't define the point where a room becomes open.
    excellent to know.

    more and more i am getting the sense that the biggest difference between Si and Ni is the time focus. Si operates in present reality while Ni operates in the future space.

    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    Wow, I would never consider 'open' to be abstract. To me, it falls into the more general concrete category (as opposed to 'floorplan,' which would be more specific concrete). It has to do with visuals. To me, abstract is more like the word 'justice,' which has no connection to anything tangible.

    I'm not saying either definition is incorrect; I'm just showing that you're right in that we have different definitions of it.

    I asked my ISFP mother about this to get another sensor's input. She actually said the same as I was thinking, that she considers 'open' to be concrete since it has to do with something you see. So it could be that Si vs Se is a factor as well in determining how you consider something abstract. Just speculating . . .
    indeed. i find "open" a very abstract concept. it can mean anything ranging from literally showing a gap between two places to being a sense of vastness of space to something that has much permeability... and so on... even when restricted to the "open" of "open floorplan", there is still little concrete about it in my mind...

  6. #26
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    indeed. i find "open" a very abstract concept. it can mean anything ranging from literally showing a gap between two places to being a sense of vastness of space to something that has much permeability... and so on... even when restricted to the "open" of "open floorplan", there is still little concrete about it in my mind...
    What's funny is that, right after I posted yesterday on this thread, my ISTP brother and his ISFP girlfriend came over, and I asked them about this too since it was on my mind to get more data points (luckily they're used to me saying odd things like this by now, lol). And they both said they felt 'open' was concrete based on the visual aspect of it. I thought, "Now this theory needs another Si/Ne user's vote on this!" And now I come back and see your post! *does cheer*

    So it seems that Se-users define abstraction as something that's not related to the five senses, while Si-users define it as something that has a malleable definition (?)
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  7. #27
    All Natural! All Good!
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    indeed. i find "open" a very abstract concept. it can mean anything ranging from literally showing a gap between two places to being a sense of vastness of space to something that has much permeability... and so on... even when restricted to the "open" of "open floorplan", there is still little concrete about it in my mind...
    I find "open" abstract for the same reason. It doesn't seem definable. I mean, you could say what is not closed is open. But the only things that are definitively closed are those completely sealed off from the surroundings... which might exist in theory. If nothing is closed, everything is open... which to me indicates that open has no definition or infinite definitions. And I just talked about permeability to matter... there is also permeability to radiation, or to the unfamiliar ("open-minded"), etc.

    Disclaimer: I don't know whether I'm Ne/Si or Se/Ni but I'll know soon, then this post can be interpreted in light of that lol.

    I will also try to gather data points from people I know! This is a great thread.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    I find "open" abstract for the same reason. It doesn't seem definable. I mean, you could say what is not closed is open. But the only things that are definitively closed are those completely sealed off from the surroundings... which might exist in theory. If nothing is closed, everything is open... which to me indicates that open has no definition or infinite definitions. And I just talked about permeability to matter... there is also permeability to radiation, or to the unfamiliar ("open-minded"), etc.
    With the word "open" though, it doesn't just mean a opened door. It can mean a open field. You seem to be trying to find an exact answer for why something could not be open, while I just stop at "It's undefinable. You can't define how open an area is."

    Methinks that difference in how far we went was more of a Ti vs Te thing.
    I don't see any invisible treasure chests.

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  9. #29
    All Natural! All Good!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin View Post
    With the word "open" though, it doesn't just mean a opened door. It can mean a open field. You seem to be trying to find an exact answer for why something could not be open, while I just stop at "It's undefinable. You can't define how open an area is."

    Methinks that difference in how far we went was more of a Ti vs Te thing.
    Actually my initial reaction was similar to yours: "It has no single definition." My post was just an attempt to explain the rationale behind my conclusion. But I had the conclusion instantly.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


    Don't use the multiquote; it was planted by the devil to deceive us.

    Social Role: Asscrack/Piece of Shit/Public Defecator/Spiteful Urinator


    A different type everyday - so no need to type me anymore. But feel free to enjoy the sound of your own asscrack.

  10. #30
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    What's funny is that, right after I posted yesterday on this thread, my ISTP brother and his ISFP girlfriend came over, and I asked them about this too since it was on my mind to get more data points (luckily they're used to me saying odd things like this by now, lol). And they both said they felt 'open' was concrete based on the visual aspect of it. I thought, "Now this theory needs another Si/Ne user's vote on this!" And now I come back and see your post! *does cheer*

    So it seems that Se-users define abstraction as something that's not related to the five senses, while Si-users define it as something that has a malleable definition (?)
    that's really interesting. yeah, that's how i conceptualize "abstract". as something which has a definition that changes based upon context and/or intended meaning, essentially. "concrete" to me is something like "2 millimeters", which is unit (2) that is understood in math to have a particular definition, and a measurement (mm) that is understood in SI to have a particular, locked-in definition. i suppose looking at it from another angle, that's all abstract, because "2" is a manmade, non-tangible concept and "millimeters" are a manmade, non-tangible concept... but to me it still "feels" concrete.

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