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[SJ] SJs and Theory

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
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I learn better by theory. I don't understand why this is considered an N trait.
I prefer to start at the top and then work my way downward (Big picture and drill down). Another trait typed at N.

How many of you S types prefer theory over just learning how to do XYZ?
 

Giggly

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For me it depends on what I am learning.

I really can't pinpoint a pattern but I definitely will be disinterested in the theory part of some things I learn. My eyes glaze over in boredom until I get to the practical parts, but with other things like with learning a new language, I need the theory part first or else I can not proceed with learning.

Sometimes it's just a directional thing - theory first, practical to follow, or vice versa, which means they are not always mutually exclusive like MBTI sometimes suggests a difference between Sensors and Intuitives.

I guess if I had to pick one or the other, I'd pick practical hands-on learning.
 

Mad Hatter

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This is a wild guess, but I assume quite a lot of theory is the result of a very diligent Si at work.
Being an INTP, I'm fairly quick to point out error in detail because I think that every detail is relevant to the big picture and you can't just skip them as you like.
 

Giggly

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^ yeah exactly.
 

IZthe411

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For me it depends on what I am learning.

I really can't pinpoint a pattern but I definitely will be disinterested in the theory part of some things I learn. My eyes glaze over in boredom until I get to the practical parts, but with other things like with learning a new language, I need the theory part first or else I can not proceed with learning.

Sometimes it's just a directional thing - theory first, practical to follow, or vice versa, which means they are not always mutually exclusive like MBTI sometimes suggests a difference between Sensors and Intuitives.

I guess if I had to pick one or the other, I'd pick practical hands-on learning.

I think if the theory is too vague, examples upfront are better. Take audit. That's all theory- principles. You can demonstrate an audit, but no one audit will ever be the same.
 

IZthe411

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This is a wild guess, but I assume quite a lot of theory is the result of a very diligent Si at work.
Being an INTP, I'm fairly quick to point out error in detail because I think that every detail is relevant to the big picture and you can't just skip them as you like.

So is theory a more Ne/Si thing or Ni/Se?

I can see elements of Si, Ne and Ni in a good theory.
 

Such Irony

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For me it varies. For some things, if I don't have a sense of the larger picture, the why behind things, I can't really learn it. With other things, I just want to get on with it and don't really care about the underlying theory behind it. I'm more likely to appreciate the theory behind something that I'm actually interested in.
 

Habba

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I'm always interested in how things work. I never liked learning by memorizing steps, I prefer understanding them.

I hate learning on pure theory (e.g. math), I always need a point of reference on what I'm learning. Also, without an useful goal, learning has little motivation for me in itself. Studying math at university has been a huge challenge for me for many reasons, one of them being that it doesn't seem to be applicable to anything I do in life. They thought me how to derivate and integrate, but they didn't tell me how to make money with that knowledge. Learning how to use something to make money is the top priority in this world.

Also, I learn very much by doing things myself, or studying others' work. I'm always interested in reason why something was done in the way it's done. I think I also have a very keen sense of finding ways to improve something, as I seem to be able to find faults on everything. Of course, I do a lot of comparison based on my previous experiences with similar or even remotely similar things.

It helps me a lot when I can recognize a familiar pattern. "Hey, this thing works here the same way as A works in B."

I think these are clear signs of Si and Te at work.

I only support theories if they support my personal experiences.
 

apotheosis29

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I like to start out with the big picture view and from there move into the details of step by step. I want to see someone else's previously attempted steps and view how successful/unsuccessful they are so that I can make improvements upon their previously made attempts.

@Habba...I totally understand what you're saying with the mathematics studies, show me how they are going to be relevant in my daily life, what jobs would I use them in? It's much different when you have to take an intro business course, you can easily relate how the concepts are going to translate to the real world. Even when I had to take group communication studies (which I so wanted to avoid because they have two words I hate right in the title) it's pretty easy to see how those relate as well.
 

Xyk

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I'm always interested in how things work. I never liked learning by memorizing steps, I prefer understanding them.

I hate learning on pure theory (e.g. math), I always need a point of reference on what I'm learning. Also, without an useful goal, learning has little motivation for me in itself. Studying math at university has been a huge challenge for me for many reasons, one of them being that it doesn't seem to be applicable to anything I do in life. They thought me how to derivate and integrate, but they didn't tell me how to make money with that knowledge. Learning how to use something to make money is the top priority in this world.

I find that most higher math teachers don't really understand why they teach math, and therefore can't effectively motivate their students. The purpose of math education is not usually for any direct practical reason, but to expand and develop the logical side of the brain. Learning how to do calculus will indirectly help you to solve practical problems. They might not teach you how to directly make money with the knowledge of calculus (because besides engineering, there isn't very much money coming directly from calculus) but knowledge of it will help you to work out complex problems in other regions of your life. Higher math teaches the ability to look at situations from several angles simultaneously and pick the best way to overcome obstacles. Critical thinking is important and is strengthened when practicing higher math skills.
 

skylights

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I think if the theory is too vague, examples upfront are better. Take audit. That's all theory- principles. You can demonstrate an audit, but no one audit will ever be the same.

My SJ is very adamant about the bold. Personally I have a very hard time with details - I must have an overview to understand and I just try to identify big-picture similarities in situations. He's much more attentive to how situations never perfectly fit the model, and how no two situations are ever completely alike. He doesn't have any trouble grasping theory, but he has such an awareness of how removed theory can be from reality that he seems to prefer to dig into the detail where possible, to come up with the best answer for each situation. As far as I can tell, his issue is less theory versus hands-on and more model versus actuality, if that makes sense. It's not about how conceptual it is - it's about the accuracy of it. He has little patience for the theory because it's not real.

Wish I could convince him to be interested in type theory, I bet he'd make some interesting posts.

MadHatter said:
This is a wild guess, but I assume quite a lot of theory is the result of a very diligent Si at work.

Indeed.

The funny thing for me personally, being an N dominant, is I'm an avid artist and I LOATHE art theory. I'm completely hands-on and detail-first when it comes to art. Somehow I feel like art theory robs art of its beauty and mystery... turns it into a science instead of an art.
 

Such Irony

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skylights;1958004 Indeed. The funny thing for me personally said:

I'm not an artist in the sense of creating it but I'm a great art appreciator. Like you, I find the theory part kind of cold and I am an NT. I find art to be about the emotional expression as well as the beauty and mystery. You can't really reduce that to scientific principles. Well maybe you can but it takes the enjoyment out of it.


I learn better by theory. I don't understand why this is considered an N trait.
I prefer to start at the top and then work my way downward (Big picture and drill down). Another trait typed at N.

How many of you S types prefer theory over just learning how to do XYZ?

I noticed you know type yourself as InTJ. Did you decide on N because you prefer theory and figure if you prefer theory you must be an N or some other reason?

It's not as common but I don't see why there can't be S's who prefer learning by theory. The MBTI has a Step II test that breaks up each preference into 5 facets. One of the S/N facets is experiential vs. theoretical. So you could have an S type overall who prefers the theoretical facet.
 

RaptorWizard

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Well at least SJs look at the facts before they assume the theory is true whereas many of the Ns just trust their gut without further inquiry and SJs also once they grasp the theory actually know how to put it into practice. If you ask me the SJ method sounds more scientific.
 

EJCC

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Well at least SJs look at the facts before they assume the theory is true whereas many of the Ns just trust their gut without further inquiry and SJs also once they grasp the theory actually know how to put it into practice. If you ask me the SJ method sounds more scientific.
It depends. It's definitely more scientific than, for example, an INTJ in tunnel vision mode, rejecting all data that opposes their view. But sometimes we take a theory for granted and don't question it, whereas oftentimes Ns are on the lookout for something better.

Personally, I really enjoy theory. I love the moment of enlightenment, when a theory EXPLAINS EVERYTHING -- which is why I'd disagree with Habba and say that I love knowing Why things work, not How things work. (I analyze and over-analyze just about everything; if you ask me what I thought of a movie, you're not gonna hear "good" or "bad", you're gonna get a paragraph or two, and it'll sound like the outline of an English paper or a movie review.)

Also I agree with IZ that theory is extremely useful as a learning tool. It's a framework for the details, like installing a bookshelf before buying your books. (Needless to say, my attitude on theory is very Si/Ne.) But I also relate to Giggly; it's particularly thrilling to learn a new concept within its own logic, without it getting explained to you. A feast for the brain!
 

SD45T-2

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(I analyze and over-analyze just about everything; if you ask me what I thought of a movie, you're not gonna hear "good" or "bad", you're gonna get a paragraph or two, and it'll sound like the outline of an English paper or a movie review.)
I usually gripe about stuf like the way the gunfire sounds, the ballistic properties of the various calibers being used, and that the lightbars on the emergency vehicle were obviously not Califrnia Code of Regulations Title 13 compliant even though the movie was set in California. :D
 

Tamske

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Interesting thread! I"m a very, very abstract learner and I've attributed that to my N side. Both my husband and I are physicists, but he's a climatologist and I'm a string theorist. Granted, string theory was one step too many into the abstract for me, but before I met a few string theory professors, I didn't know there was such a thing as too abstract. And until I met some of my former students, I didn't know there existed people who didn't get the link between "it's 50 euros for the connection to the water distriution and 12 euros for each cubic metre of water" and "f(x)=50+12x".
I think this is similar to other properties and MBTI: preferring the abstract gets you some N points, but not enough to land you in the N realm on its own.
But [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION], what do you mean by "why" and "how" things work? To me, everything that's answerable (and not by religious statements or philosophical mumbo-jumbo) is a "how". Why do I exist? No idea. How did I come to be? Well there was that egg and that sperm...
 

EJCC

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I think this is similar to other properties and MBTI: preferring the abstract gets you some N points, but not enough to land you in the N realm on its own.
:yes:
But EJCC, what do you mean by "why" and "how" things work? To me, everything that's answerable (and not by religious statements or philosophical mumbo-jumbo) is a "how". Why do I exist? No idea. How did I come to be? Well there was that egg and that sperm...
:laugh: True that. I didn't intend my statement to refer to that sort of thought process. I was thinking more along the lines of, say... psychology vs. neurology. The answer to "how" people act a certain way has to do with synapses and muscles and various other technical data, but the answer to "why" people act a certain way has to do with motivations, from my interpretation of it. If I hear about a crime committed on TV, I'm much more interested in the criminal's motivations, than what the details of the crime itself were.

Or maybe this metaphor would work better: How did the model volcano blow up in the middle of class? Baking soda and vinegar reacting to one another. Why did the model volcano blow up in the middle of class? Because one of the students ran up to the volcano -- already full of baking soda -- and poured vinegar in behind the teacher's back.

I dunno. I'm not explaining this very well. :doh:
 

Southern Kross

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I usually gripe about stuf like the way the gunfire sounds, the ballistic properties of the various calibers being used, and that the lightbars on the emergency vehicle were obviously not Califrnia Code of Regulations Title 13 compliant even though the movie was set in California. :D
:D My mechanic (ISTP) dad is like this with engine noises in movies. It seems that half the time they just use a big noise that sounds cool without caring which sort of vehicle it actually goes in - eg. "haha, that's ridiculous. That's a Detroit! That's the wrong engine for that model."

I think more and more now that the N vs S learning differences, is in how things click for you. Both like (and need) theory and details, it's just that we need more clarity in one particular area in order to appreciate and add meaning to the other. Sensors will appreciate theory if they see the application of it, just as Intuitors will appreciate details if they see how they fit together.
 

SD45T-2

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Interesting thread! I"m a very, very abstract learner and I've attributed that to my N side. Both my husband and I are physicists, but he's a climatologist and I'm a string theorist.
[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

funny-pictures-physicist-cat-tries-to-understand-string-theory.jpg
 
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