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[SJ] My theory on why SJs are perceived as closed minded

King sns

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INFP 7w8? that's an exotic combination. it would explain the bitchy ass ESTJ shadow mode that comes out of my sometimes lol. so now I have someone who thinks I'm INFP, another thinks ISFJ (lord knows how), another ENTJ, another INTJ and another ESFP. in the meantime I still think I'm ENFP (along with most of the forum members) but I would certainly love to be typed as introverted, partly because INFPs just seem classier.

Like Marm has said before, ENFP's don't walk around with this fragile attitude that only very specific people can approach them. They are very people/ relationship driven. Want to know more deeply into the dynamics of people and want to have relationships with them. Not shoo them away. I actually (sadly enough) see a side of myself in you. Though I see 4, not 7. Someone who is driven by individuality and finding their place. Concern with yourself and yourself only, not others.
 

Elfboy

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Like Marm has said before, ENFP's don't walk around with this fragile attitude that only very specific people can approach them. They are very people/ relationship driven. Want to know more deeply into the dynamics of people and want to have relationships with them. Not shoo them away. I actually (sadly enough) see a side of myself in you. Though I see 4, not 7. Someone who is driven by individuality and finding their place. Concern with yourself and yourself only, not others.

my concerns lack the emotions and the shame of the 4. if I do have shame, I certainly don't indulge it like a 4 does. 4s also are very emotional, I'm practically a sociopath. 7s motivations are adventure, hedonism and comfort, these are much more me :yes:
 

EJCC

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+1 again! The ESTJs I know can be tough at work but they're good people and more than willing to listen to my ideas. Then again, being an SJ myself, I guess I just know how to talk to them? :shrug:
:yes: I think that's it, yeah. In work/business/task-oriented settings, SJs are so in tune with one another. SFJs can really confuse me sometimes (probably from not being friends with many of them), but when we're working together, I know we have the same goals.
As for me though, I'm just on this forum because I like the people on it. A lot of people seem to have had bad experiences with ISFJs so I just try to take this as a learning experience to see possible weak areas within myself and to see if I can improve them.
That's a nice way to approach it. :) Using the MBTI for self-improvement instead of for finding new and interesting ways to stereotype people. A noble goal, sir. :yes:
Seems to be my observation as well, which is a shame but...what can you do? :shrug:
Yeah... :dont: I guess you just fight the fights you can win.
I'm a male ISFJ, right-of-center atheist. I'm totally in support of LGBT rights and am a supporter of feminist ideals. Not sure where the hell this lands me on the "traditional" dart board.
That makes you definitely not traditional. :yes: And an excellent stereotype-breaker! Like me and mnestic, being liberal female ESTJs. But again, if no one communicates with us (via the aforementioned thread), no one's stereotypes get broken... :dont:
Oh, and another thing and this is something I mentioned in another thread: it might be helpful to flesh out what it is we all mean when we say "Traditional" as it seems to me that "traditional" is a term whose meaning is relative depending on the generation you apply it to.
+1. Exactly!!! So many people stereotype SJs based purely on the fact that the only SJs they know are traditional and either middle-aged or old. The teenage through thirtysomething SJs are completely ignored.
As a male ISFJ, I don't know how to take being compared to Elfboy :sadbanana:
Aw :hug: I know how you feel. Honestly, though, of all the people I've ever met, the SFJs have been the least egotistical and the most down-to-earth. So I for one have no idea where that comparison came from.

And Elfboy has so much Fi and Ne that the only legit alternative option for his type is INFP.
 

Elfboy

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:yes: I think that's it, yeah. In work/business/task-oriented settings, SJs are so in tune with one another. SFJs can really confuse me sometimes (probably from not being friends with many of them), but when we're working together, I know we have the same goals.

That's a nice way to approach it. :) Using the MBTI for self-improvement instead of for finding new and interesting ways to stereotype people. A noble goal, sir. :yes:

Yeah... :dont: I guess you just fight the fights you can win.

That makes you definitely not traditional. :yes: And an excellent stereotype-breaker! Like me and mnestic, being liberal female ESTJs. But again, if no one communicates with us (via the aforementioned thread), no one's stereotypes get broken... :dont:

+1. Exactly!!! So many people stereotype SJs based purely on the fact that the only SJs they know are traditional and either middle-aged or old. The teenage through thirtysomething SJs are completely ignored.

Aw :hug: I know how you feel. Honestly, though, of all the people I've ever met, the SFJs have been the least egotistical and the most down-to-earth. So I for one have no idea where that comparison came from.

And Elfboy has so much Fi and Ne that the only legit alternative option for his type is INFP.

I agree with most of your post, thankyou for continually bringing us back to the initial topic :hifive:
 

/DG/

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What in the world is going on in here?

Any type can be close minded.
 

Seymour

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EJCC's post above reminds me of her very patient explanation to me of the whole ESTJ "of course what I believe is right; if I thought it was wrong, I'd believe something else. So, convince me I'm wrong and I'll change my mind" mindset. It makes perfect sense, but seems so foreign to me.

I sometimes feel that, as an INFP, I allocate parts of my mind to provisionally believing (or at least seeing the perspective of) the truth the other is offering. It doesn't mean I really believe whatever-it-is to be true, but I can see how it might be true, or could be seen as true. It can sometimes lead to the other person thinking you agree with them, unless one clarifies periodically.

That ESTJ directness seems awfully blunt and refreshing, once one understands where it is coming from. Hearing "I think X is right" from an ESTJ is not necessarily the end of the discussion.
 

Elfboy

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EJCC's post above reminds me of her very patient explanation to me of the whole ESTJ "of course what I believe is right; if I thought it was wrong, I'd believe something else. So, convince me I'm wrong and I'll change my mind" mindset. It makes perfect sense, but seems so foreign to me.
I sometimes feel that, as an INFP, I allocate parts of my mind to provisionally believing (or at least seeing the perspective of) the truth the other is offering. It doesn't mean I really believe whatever-it-is to be true, but I can see how it might be true, or could be seen as true. It can sometimes lead to the other person thinking you agree with them, unless one clarifies periodically.

That ESTJ directness seems awfully blunt and refreshing, once one understands where it is coming from. Hearing "I think X is right" from an ESTJ is not necessarily the end of the discussion.

that's ESTJ? sounds exactly like what I'm thinking when someone questions my opinions. maybe we're more alike than I realized
 

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
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that's ESTJ? sounds exactly like what I'm thinking when someone questions my opinions. maybe we're more alike than I realized

Of course you are. We're all still human beings after all.

If you ask me... judging whether you like people or not based on type is close-minded as well. So does this mean that you're an SJ because you're being close-minded?

Sounds like you just call everyone SJ's if you don't like them. Just because you have ENFP written under you avatar, doesn't mean you're any better than anyone else.
 

Elfboy

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Of course you are. We're all still human beings after all.

If you ask me... judging whether you like people or not based on type is close-minded as well. So does this mean that you're an SJ because you're being close-minded?

Sounds like you just call everyone SJ's if you don't like them. Just because you have ENFP written under you avatar, doesn't mean you're any better than anyone else.

please read the original post a little more thoroughly before you make that assumption :yes:
 

King sns

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that's ESTJ? sounds exactly like what I'm thinking when someone questions my opinions. maybe we're more alike than I realized

:doh:

What did you think an ESTJ was?
 

/DG/

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please read the original post a little more thoroughly before you make that assumption :yes:

I did read your fist post... and it wasn't bad. What got me were a few other posts made by you. I apologize, but I'm too lazy to find them. I think they were within the first few pages, though/
 

mrcockburn

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Aw :hug: I know how you feel. Honestly, though, of all the people I've ever met, the SFJs have been the least egotistical and the most down-to-earth. So I for one have no idea where that comparison came from.

Most SFJs I know are humble to the point where I want to shake them because they don't realize their strengths! :hug:

But a few of the male ones I know are unhealthy - and they manifest this by acting like Elfboy. Very egotistical, very condescending, convinced that they have no feelings, etc. Like an ISFJ in shadow mode - a quasiENTP. That's why you're getting all the Ne, and not in Grade A form.

As for the Fi, that could just be him being a quintessential 4, whether he admits it or not.
 

Elfboy

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I did read your fist post... and it wasn't bad. What got me were a few other posts made by you. I apologize, but I'm too lazy to find them. I think they were within the first few pages, though/

if you're referring to the not liking about 80% of SJs and not liking about 70% of most people, there wasn't really much that was SJ specific about the people I don't like. I thought I explained that
 

mrcockburn

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Hmm.. I have a lot of trouble believing that you're a three. First of all, I have a lot of trouble believing that anybody spending a lot of time on this forum is a three. (Not doubting that some people here may be threes.) Threes are achievers, they need markers of success.

Haha, I'm an exception then. I work from a computer 90% of the time (except for conferences, sales presentations, etc), and I believe in taking regular work breaks (scientifically shown to result in a higher productivity yield over the course of the day), which I spend here rather than on Facebook.

Why here? I got into MBTI to help my business (and it has - tremendously) - so that brought me here. My wing 4 made me stay. ;)
 

King sns

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Haha, I'm an exception then. I work from a computer 90% of the time (except for conferences, sales presentations, etc), and I believe in taking regular work breaks (scientifically shown to result in a higher productivity yield over the course of the day), which I spend here rather than on Facebook.

Why here? I got into MBTI to help my business (and it has - tremendously) - so that brought me here. My wing 4 made me stay. ;)

Yea, I believe you. Somehow I don't think that Elfboy has the same motivation for being here. If he's a 7, (like a lot of us around here), the site just provides an extra boost to the quest for constant mental stimulation/ just something else to do.
 

Elfboy

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Most SFJs I know are humble to the point where I want to shake them because they don't realize their strengths! :hug:

But a few of the male ones I know are unhealthy - and they manifest this by acting like Elfboy. Very egotistical, very condescending, convinced that they have no feelings, etc. Like an ISFJ in shadow mode - a quasiENTP. That's why you're getting all the Ne, and not in Grade A form.

As for the Fi, that could just be him being a quintessential 4, whether he admits it or not.

this post has convinced me that you're almost certainly ESTP. your approach to my posts is much more Fe/Ti (doing a consistancy check, scanning for logical errors with Ti while try to find some sort of emotional weakness or leverage point with Fe ) than Fi/Te (trying to make a logical arguement, trying to come to a conclusion, looking for supporting/contrary data and checking the ethical integrity of the proposes solutions). you seem more interested in deconstructing the post itself more than what I'm actually saying. also, not to be typist, but most of the ENTJs I've met love me and understand exactly what I'm saying while 7/9 of the ESTPs I've met IRL were like "who is this arrogant bastard? he must be insecure." you also seem to have a lot in common with and connect with ISFJs, much more than i see most ENTJs having. most of all is a subtle sort of semi-guilt trip you appear to be unconsciously exuding in your posts that says "you should feel bad about this". ENTJs don't write like that

as for your analysis, I'm sorry but if that were true I would have had to have been in shadow mode since I was 6 months old. I'm sure all of the ISFJs on this forum will tell you they are nothing like me. this is just intuition speaking, but I think you just think I'm an ISFJ 6 because you don't like me
 

King sns

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this post has convinced me that you're almost certainly ESTP. your approach to my posts is much more Fe/Ti (doing a consistancy check, scanning for logical errors with Ti while try to find some sort of emotional weakness or leverage point with Fe ) than Fi/Te (trying to make a logical arguement, trying to come to a conclusion, looking for supporting/contrary data and checking the ethical integrity of the proposes solutions). you seem more interested in deconstructing the post itself more than what I'm actually saying. also, not to be typist, but most of the ENTJs I've met love me and understand exactly what I'm saying while 7/9 of the ESTPs I've met IRL were like "who is this arrogant bastard? he must be insecure." you also seem to have a lot in common with and connect with ISFJs, much more than i see most ENTJs having. most of all is a subtle sort of semi-guilt trip you appear to be unconsciously exuding in your posts that says "you should feel bad about this". ENTJs don't write like that

as for your analysis, I'm sorry but if that were true I would have had to have been in shadow mode since I was 6 months old. I'm sure all of the ISFJs on this forum will tell you they are nothing like me. this is just intuition speaking, but I think you just think I'm an ISFJ 6 because you don't like me

OBJECTION! Projection!
 

Elfboy

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Yea, I believe you. Somehow I don't think that Elfboy has the same motivation for being here. If he's a 7, (like a lot of us around here), the site just provides an extra boost to the quest for constant mental stimulation/ just something else to do.

agreed, although this forum is one of my more 5-ish indulgences. intellectual conversation like personality theory and self discovery make for good tea conversation. the frequent attempts at character assassination give my 8 wing and Te a little excercise too :devil:
 

Seymour

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that's ESTJ? sounds exactly like what I'm thinking when someone questions my opinions. maybe we're more alike than I realized

That's not to say that Fi doesn't lead to certainty, too. But Fi certainty revolves more about what one values and feels is important for oneself, and tends to say less about objective truth or practical implementation. It can wrap around into universal truth (esp those about the value of the individual), but usually it is most certain about what is right, important and good (including aesthetically) for oneself. I may know what's right for me and what I value, but I don't know what's right for you. I expect to be responsible for my own actions, and expect that others will be, too.

Te is more concerned with the correct, the empirically true, and the practical. It tends towards certainty is about the best way to do things, ensure consistency, prove things and organize things. It is fundamentally more cross contextual than Fi (or Ti), so tends to be more certain about the best way to do things across contexts.

Every person can use their preferred type of judging to be certain and close-minded. They do, I think, have slightly difference flavors. Maybe Fi's tagline should be "This time, it's personal!"
 

Viridian

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Is today Pick On Elfboy Day? I wasn't notified... :(

What you said right there doesn't even make you sound ENFP, it makes you sound like an insecure INFP or INTJ or something.

I'm serious, bro. AN ENFP THAT HAD NO FRIENDS IN HIGH SCHOOL BECAUSE ONLY CERTAIN PEOPLE ARE "ALLOWED" TO APPROACH YOU? WTF

Well, ENFPs are "the most introverted extroverts", aren't they? :shrug:

OHH I see, so you're not making a comment about your own class. If I read between the lines a little more, you may have actually been saying that

"I, Elfboy, have an equal possibility of being lower class or upper class, classy or classless, inferior or superior, or just average. However, I only like people who are classy and superior. Low class, inferior people are offputting." Gotcha.

I suspect he's not using the same definition of class as you... I could be wrong, though.

Yeah but you're skipping over all of those self-congratulatory closed-minded NTJs, too.

You can't just contrast ENFP and ISTJ. That's not objective or fair. It's not even about being "nice" or "tolerant"...it's not even fucking logical.

Did you see the ISTP just call us all sociopaths? Have you not missed how closed minded you can be? The stuff you've said in this thread I commented on was pretty outrageously closed-minded.

Si does have a particular inflexibility, but so does Ni in a way, as someone has already pointed out. Except in Ni doms we just call it "being delusional."

I'd say Xi in general can bring a certain close-mindedness in unhealthy individuals...

it's actually kind of relieving to hear you say that. I looked a little more into type 3 and thought "Oh God don't let me be that" lol

I suspect that has a lot to do with descriptions of Threes being very unflattering... That's a common problem with online E-Type profiles.

Like Marm has said before, ENFP's don't walk around with this fragile attitude that only very specific people can approach them. They are very people/ relationship driven. Want to know more deeply into the dynamics of people and want to have relationships with them. Not shoo them away. I actually (sadly enough) see a side of myself in you. Though I see 4, not 7. Someone who is driven by individuality and finding their place. Concern with yourself and yourself only, not others.

What was that "tolerance" thing again? :dry:
 
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