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[SJ] My theory on why SJs are perceived as closed minded

entropie

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I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?

I have noticed one ENFP on here change her perspective on SJs. So somebody's listening.

But for the rest of the self proclaimed N types- I think SJ is a catch all for people who irritate them.

Asskissing into the SJ castle... uahh that's disgusting :D
That's like the phrases the nazi used back then: "some people have come to see what is right, but the others who havent are wrong."

Imo it will be the holy day in a phillistine life, if one comes to recognize how many rights certain situation can have ..
 

IZthe411

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That's part of it. Hard data has to be examined and compared to what has been previously validated, in order to make sure it matches up. This takes time. SJs don't necessarily trust change and have to manage the risk, whereas NPs thrive on change and more typically "throw themselves on the currents."



yes. This is why they make great actuaries/accountants and engineers, etc.



I would agree that unwillingness to invest energy at someone else's expense is one reason why some SJs might dig in. I think it is reasonable to expect an SJ type to need some time to explore data and make sure it's solid; so usually if I have an issue with one, it's because I feel that the option was never seriously considered in the first place because it was threatening or inconvenient to them in some way, not because they needed time to process. (I've had a lot of experience, to my detriment, in that area... although there are those who rose to the occasion and diligently plowed through things.) The processing time is necessary, though; and the more concrete and quantifiable the data, the better. No loose/abstract connections.



You seem more flexible than many I've known. Typically, even with the flexible SJs I've known, there is a period of resistance where a new idea that contrasts with their prior held values is shoved back against... and then, if it doesn't just vanish, they'll start to consider it and perhaps change course if there's enough good information to warrant it. I've seen minds change even on things that ran completely counter to their prior ideas... but only if they get the right information and only if they have the time they need to vet it.

EDIT: more comments from the SJ's... we other types need to shut up a bit. :)

I do agree that data has to be examined/validated prior to just accepting it. While Some SJs aren't interested in the change, some are and just want you to prove your point. If you get shook or break down in the process, they take it as you're not too sure of it yourself. Dumb & Shortsighted process? Yes. But it's all about the data.

I wonder if it's due to age, experience, intelligence, or common sense? ;) It's rare that I totally dismiss an idea. I give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they have no idea what they're talking about. LOL. Then you lose credibility. I think learning type really helped as well.

I grew up with 8 kids in a house. 8 totally different personalities. We had a ball. Although I will say my ENFP sister (16 months younger than I am) and ENTP (about 4 years younger than I) brother drove me up the wall when we were younger- that probably helped a lot too! LOL
 

IZthe411

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Asskissing into the SJ castle... uahh that's disgusting :D
That's like the phrases the nazi used back then: "some people have come to see what is right, but the others who havent are wrong."

Imo it will be the holy day in a phillistine life, if one comes to recognize how many rights certain situation can have ..

And the church says "AMEN"
 

entropie

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the church, nazis... it's all the same.

I once tried to form a club of independent free thinkers, I got around 200 people to join; only problem was noone ever came to any meeting :/
 

King sns

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Everyone is pretty closed minded at the end of the day.
 

King sns

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you caught me :laugh: I can't stand 80% of the SJs I know lol, but I at least want to understand them better so that I can make a more informed decision about which one's I don't like vs which one's I just don't understand. I suppose I believe in giving people a chance if I don't understand them

Are you sure you are even typing SJ's correctly? If half the people are SJ's, and you don't like 80 percent of SJ's... Well, you do the math. SJ's are the closed minded ones??

Edit: N's are known to be people who have a greater perspective and ability to see possibilities, yes. I've always thought of S's as equally likely to be open minded because many don't take anything for granted. Facts are believable, and they simply want to wait for more facts/ proof before making a judgment. Before coming here, I thought of S's as more likely to be religiously agnostic. (Not the bible belt SJ's that some talk about here), and N's to be more likely to just "believe" in something that isn't proven. J's in general being the one's to make strong convictions about things, and NJ's to be one's who believe something that possibly isn't true and make a strong conviction about it.

Obviously, the above statement is not true always- (In fact, usually untrue.) The point is, I think that anyone can be closed minded, and any type can come to the same conclusion through different outlets. (If type exists at all.) So you can have SJ's seeing things from a billion different perspectives and coming to different (open or closed minded conclusions) just like everyone else.
 

Randomnity

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When someone like an ISTJ habitually responds to every new idea, no matter how benign, with skepticism, then this is just a learned response pattern. And yes it does drive other people crazy, kind of like if I was always cracking my knuckles in your presence until you were finally tempted to break my fingers.

Wait, surely ISTJs are not the only ones who treat new ideas with skepticism. That implies that Ne doms run around blindly accepting every statement that anyone tells them, which is clearly ridiculous. wth is wrong with skepticism anyway? You can't believe everything you hear....
 

entropie

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Everyone is pretty closed minded at the end of the day.

To me it would be nice that everybody just accepts the difference in others. If everybody would be like you yourself that would be boring aswell.

The country in which I live is SJcentral and over the course of my life I've always had SJ friends. Infact some of my best friends I'ld type as such and I can safely say that there is no difference in intelligence, open-mindedness or whatsoever. The one and only real difference is that my intrests have mostly been of the intangible abstract sort or just plain uncommon, while the isfj buddy at work for example has concrete tangible intrests, like common intrests.

My girlfriend and me went jogging yesterday, I did that at age 27 for the first time in my life and it felt weird, I got embarassed because of it. Nevertheless we tried it out cause we want to loose some pounds and we had fun ( tho I'ld prefer building my cnc machine instead of jogging anytime ) :).

To me the main difference is that little one, but I never thought in all my life that I am better than anyone. The only thing I wish for is to meet someone one day who has similiar intrests like I have. I havent had that luck yet and when I am mad at SJs sometimes, its only because of that. But that is my own issue :)
 

King sns

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To me it would be nice that everybody just accepts the difference in others. If everybody would be like you yourself that would be boring aswell.

The country in which I live is SJcentral and over the course of my life I've always had SJ friends. Infact some of my best friends I'ld type as such and I can safely say that there is no difference in intelligence, open-mindedness or whatsoever. The one and only real difference is that my intrests have mostly been of the intangible abstract sort or just plain uncommon, while the isfj buddy at work for example has concrete tangible intrests, like common intrests.

My girlfriend and me went jogging yesterday, I did that at age 27 for the first time in my life and it felt weird, I got embarassed because of it. Nevertheless we tried it out cause we want to loose some pounds and we had fun ( tho I'ld prefer building my cnc machine instead of jogging anytime ) :).

To me the main difference is that little one, but I never thought in all my life that I am better than anyone. The only thing I wish for is to meet someone one day who has similiar intrests like I have. I havent had that luck yet and when I am mad at SJs sometimes, its only because of that. But that is my own issue :)

:yes:
Agreed. I'm mad at a lot of people sometimes.

Nobody can be 100 percent open minded all of the time. Every thought that everyone has is a thought that someone else probably had at some time. Every new idea is something recycled from something else. We're humans, we use little of our brains. Most of our thought processes are just going in circles. (Whether it's a "common", linear, "boring" circle, or a weird and quirky circle.) We're mostly just closed circuts except for the small percentage of time that we're being challenged by a source.
 

InvisibleJim

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Wait, surely ISTJs are not the only ones who treat new ideas with skepticism. That implies that Ne doms run around blindly accepting every statement that anyone tells them, which is clearly ridiculous. wth is wrong with skepticism anyway? You can't believe everything you hear....

It's about presenting information and facts in a convincing and fully comprehensive way.

It is very easy for those 'stable stable' J's to present information in a natural and consistent stone which others find convincing. The extroverted perceiver is pretty likely to get half way and then present something entirely different and the listener just goes 'You what?' sometimes it comes down to just not 'appearing' sincere because of this tendency.

As a child I taught to present one information at a time in a concise and ordered way because I had real difficulties with doing so (hey I'm an Ni dom whats new, sic. see Kalach/Victor). On the one hand many people find this offensive or 'inhibiting' because it closes off whatever they were doing and forces them to indulge in the facts upon the table. On the other hand many people find it comforting and give it respect.

If I want to play with EPs however, I know that I have to be willing to indulge their creative nature, but I also expect them to reciprocate on occasion. It's simply no good to have someone accuse me of being closed minded because they can't provide a solid and coherent argument; it's the kind of argument that wouldn't convince themselves if it is played back later - but you won't find them calling themselves closed minded when they reject it.

To give the ultimate ExxP idiom it's conclusion:

Give the people what they WANT!
 

entropie

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If I want to play with EPs however, I know that I have to be willing to indulge their creative nature, but I also expect them to reciprocate on occasion. It's simply no good to have someone accuse me of being closed minded because they can't provide a solid and coherent argument; it's the kind of argument that wouldn't convince themselves if it is played back later - but you won't find them calling themselves closed minded when they reject it.

I always feel like an experiment when you talk about EPs :)
 

King sns

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I always feel like an experiment when you talk about EPs :)

ahahaahahaha. "Watch the EP's as they converse with one another in their natural habitat."
 

entropie

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Every experience in life is just another data point.

whatever that means, I have no clue :)

Can I get a hamster wheel ?
funny-pictures-cats-play-game-with-hamster.jpg
 

IZthe411

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the church, nazis... it's all the same.

I once tried to form a club of independent free thinkers, I got around 200 people to join; only problem was noone ever came to any meeting :/

LOL you want a drum roll to go with this routine?
 

mrcockburn

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It sounds obvious, but the best way to convince an SJ is to simply ask: "What would change your mind? What evidence or data would convince you?"

Now they'll be forced to examine themselves, and either look like a low-IQ 4-year-old by shouting "Nothing!" (which I've had people do before, lol) or give you an answer - and you can do all possible to address that.
 

EJCC

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It's a well attributed fallacy of some P types, especially the EP types, that simply stating their opinion will make another change their mind...

Like seriously, bring substantial information and analysis to the table then people will change their mind if it is factual, otherwise J types will stick to their opinions.
:yes: Exactly!
I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?

I have noticed one ENFP on here change her perspective on SJs. So somebody's listening.

But for the rest of the self proclaimed N types- I think SJ is a catch all for people who irritate them.
+1
That's part of it. Hard data has to be examined and compared to what has been previously validated, in order to make sure it matches up. This takes time.
:yes: Exactly. It's not "time to process", it's "time to research". If this interaction happens...

non-SJ: That's not true, THIS is true. Here's the logical reason why.
SJ: Hmmm.
*next day*
SJ: Yeah, I guess you were right. Sorry about all that.

... then it wasn't because the SJ needed a day to process. Almost certainly that SJ went straight to a computer/library/wherever and did some research. But after the research, they're fully convinced. And often the research doesn't take long; in my case, usually all it takes is one article on Wikipedia or the New York Times.

Typically, even with the flexible SJs I've known, there is a period of resistance where a new idea that contrasts with their prior held values is shoved back against... and then, if it doesn't just vanish, they'll start to consider it and perhaps change course if there's enough good information to warrant it. I've seen minds change even on things that ran completely counter to their prior ideas... but only if they get the right information and only if they have the time they need to vet it.
I dislike the continued use of the word "time" on this thread - because it's misleading. The people who need time to sit and process things internally are generally not the SJs - they would probably be NFs. But I'm nitpicking; you're totally right about SJs needing factual details from trustworthy sources in order to change their minds.

EDIT: more comments from the SJ's... we other types need to shut up a bit. :)
Yeah, I commented earlier, and my post got ignored. :dry: (except for Marm and Jim, who had good things to say.)
Are you sure you are even typing SJ's correctly? If half the people are SJ's, and you don't like 80 percent of SJ's... Well, you do the math. SJ's are the closed minded ones??

Edit: N's are known to be people who have a greater perspective and ability to see possibilities, yes. I've always thought of S's as equally likely to be open minded because many don't take anything for granted. Facts are believable, and they simply want to wait for more facts/ proof before making a judgment. Before coming here, I thought of S's as more likely to be religiously agnostic. (Not the bible belt SJ's that some talk about here), and N's to be more likely to just "believe" in something that isn't proven. J's in general being the one's to make strong convictions about things, and NJ's to be one's who believe something that possibly isn't true and make a strong conviction about it.

Obviously, the above statement is not true always- (In fact, usually untrue.) The point is, I think that anyone can be closed minded, and any type can come to the same conclusion through different outlets. (If type exists at all.) So you can have SJ's seeing things from a billion different perspectives and coming to different (open or closed minded conclusions) just like everyone else.
Excellent post. The bolded, especially. :yes:
It sounds obvious, but the best way to convince an SJ is to simply ask: "What would change your mind? What evidence or data would convince you?"

Now they'll be forced to examine themselves, and either look like a low-IQ 4-year-old by shouting "Nothing!" (which I've had people do before, lol) or give you an answer - and you can do all possible to address that.
And if you're talking about something factual (not value-based or moral), then 99% of the time they'll give you an answer. They'll have a tough time with the Fi stuff.
 

Elfboy

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Are you sure you are even typing SJ's correctly? If half the people are SJ's, and you don't like 80 percent of SJ's... Well, you do the math. SJ's are the closed minded ones??

Edit: N's are known to be people who have a greater perspective and ability to see possibilities, yes. I've always thought of S's as equally likely to be open minded because many don't take anything for granted. Facts are believable, and they simply want to wait for more facts/ proof before making a judgment. Before coming here, I thought of S's as more likely to be religiously agnostic. (Not the bible belt SJ's that some talk about here), and N's to be more likely to just "believe" in something that isn't proven. J's in general being the one's to make strong convictions about things, and NJ's to be one's who believe something that possibly isn't true and make a strong conviction about it.

Obviously, the above statement is not true always- (In fact, usually untrue.) The point is, I think that anyone can be closed minded, and any type can come to the same conclusion through different outlets. (If type exists at all.) So you can have SJ's seeing things from a billion different perspectives and coming to different (open or closed minded conclusions) just like everyone else.

I can't stand 70% of people as a whole. to me, most people are low class, vulgar, unpleasant, irrational and dense, so saying that I can't stand 80% of SJs is not so biased. this may be a foreign concept to you (not because you're ESFP, but because you seem to be a people person)
 

ICUP

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I totally disagree that any SJ will change their opinions for any reason. I think there are some SJ's who will still believe in heaven when the sky falls on them and kills their first-born child. I know SJ's who have been to-hell-and-back because of their beliefs and never changed a thing. (And this is with 80 million people telling them to change it for themselves and their kids). Some SJ's are SO resistant it is unbelievable.

I know other SJ's who won't believe the news at all, or the court system, if it suits them. One, for instance, thinks cheating is wrong, but Bill Clinton is the most wonderful man walking. So, if I ask them, "well, what about Monica Lewinsky?", they will claim that it never happened, that Bill Clinton was framed.

So you SJ's telling me that if I gather the right information and arguments to present, you will readily change your beliefs, imo, is ridiculous. I have not found one SJ who would listen to reason, agree with it, and then change their lives and beliefs because of it. (And they continue totally living according to belief when there is TONS of information out there telling them that what they are doing is wrong.) This doesn't mean I don't like SJ's; I just accept them for who they are.

I know alot of SJ's, and some like to think they are open-minded to new ideas, but even with the best of them, you can give 'em some convincing arguments with excellent sources to back you up, and they will agree, but they aren't gonna budge irl. During the discussion, sure, they will be positive, but the next day, they will wake up, and do the exact same thing again according to old beliefs. They take no action on the information, even if it is sound. And this is what gets on my nerves so badly. LoL.

It has nothing to do with how well you can present an argument. People are who they are. Even I as a P: once I have agreed that some sort of information is solid, it will be semi-difficult to convince me of otherwise. But if it's true, I will probably see it myself anyway. I have few social or traditional concerns.

Basically, if you don't like SJ's because they are resistant, just give up and accept them as they are. Know what you know, but don't try to get them to believe you, or change them. It's pointless and it won't work. LoL..... At some point I learned not to care, and to allow them to be themselves. They are like a rock, steadfast and strong in their ways.

Now, if there are SJ's who are "different" from the SJ's I have known, I'd be willing to SEE it. Telling me they are one way won't do the job, I have to SEE it happen. And as of yet, I have not. So yea, I'm a skeptic and not so easily convinced myself, but I'm nowhere near as resistant as any SJ I know. Someone prove me wrong.......

I am talking the actual lifestyles they live. Sure, I know an SJ who drives a bug, has spiky hair, listens to the buzzcocks, etc. But when it comes to his "real" life, he's a christian and goes to church, and lives a very traditional lifestyle (4 kids, a wife who doesn't work, plays golf, watches sports), and his beliefs are in-line with social concerns (goes along with what everyone else is doing). I am talking the things that matter here and there's where you can see a real distinction between types, and THAT is where you know what they stand for. THERE'S where they don't budge. Converting a Christian to an atheist or convincing them to have sex when they don't believe in having sex before marriage is practically impossible. But an istp can change religions 4 times in a year, and be talked into trying a new activity in 10 minutes lol....... Now I have known SJ's who will delve into the realms of subcultures and deviances, of course, but in their daily lives, they are REALLY conservative and traditional. An ISTP lives there and is one of the few scouting it out, an SJ just visits basically when it's more mainstream to do so, and that's the difference. SJ's are much more mainstream, conservative, and traditional in their values, regardless, and they won't be convinced to live otherwise. Even the liberal ones I know who do delve into religion-changes, etc., are hard-pressed to change their beliefs concerning religion-changes lolol....They have been convinced of certain values from early-on, and even though these values seem to be more progressive, they are still mostly unchangeable.

I think it's mostly about values, tried-and-true (traditional) methods that have always worked, lifestyle changes, religions (whether it be worshipping cows, Metallica, or Christ, it's still THEIR tradition and not easily changed), etc. The ones I know watch everyone else change these things while they remain the same, and when it comes time when everyone else is doing it and apparently it is the right thing to do, they change it, but not until then. Non-risky and like-a-rock. That's the way it was meant to be. They aren't meant to be ahead-of-the-curve, but behind it. I pretty much see them as holding-down-the-fort while the rest of us explore the frontiers. Somebody has to do it!

End result is: An SJ or anyone else can SAY they do anything, but irl, their actions don't back up what they are saying they do. When an ISTP does make changes to their lifestyles based on information, that is when you know who they are. It takes a lot more pressure from outside sources for an SJ to make a change in action. Processing and learning information is not what it's all about, but action. Anyone can learn anything, it's what they do based on that information and how they use that information, that counts. Just my two cents.
 

ICUP

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I can't stand 70% of people as a whole. to me, most people are low class, vulgar, unpleasant, irrational and dense

Welcome to 2011. Get used to it! It will get much worse before it gets better LoL.
 
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