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[MBTI General] Trusting intuition

The Machine Stops

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When you're in a relationship with an intuitive type, does that ever create a conflict for you?

"Do you know how to get there?"
"Absolutly."
"How? Where is the map?"
"A map? I have a nose, what do I need a map for!" :devil:

It does for me. She needs data, I don't have data, I have a feeling, and that usually turns out right, but hardly makes her feel better until it turns out right.
 

entropie

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Well I wouldnt know if I was to trust an Intuitor on roadmap topics, I think for this things you really should consult a map.

Still I know your problems, tho I think it is a problem that concerns more primary intuitive types. My boss lately asked me about the topic of electrical mobility and future developments in that field. She asked me how much of our work we should dedicate that topic and how much can be earned in thze field. I am convinced that the topic is part of a wider spread developing german conciensce for renewable energy sources, a modern way of living and a technologized future but I dont think that e-mobility will be there too fast and I dont think people will abandon the combustion engine over night.

Ok that was no art so far, but then she asked me why I am so convincved that our generation will be intrested in all sorts of innovative ways to move around on the world and in a thing like e-mobility aswell. Well I cant, I am guessing, like I am often. And this is a thing I often come in troubles with.

I had to learn over the last years that I just cant always speak my mind like I please, but instead that I have to sometimes collect proof first aswell. My hunches are often great and I have an intense understanding to within minutes understand how a complex system operates as long as it is logical to some extent, but speaking properly with people who demand some proof for your facts, I had to learn.

Germany is a very counter-intuitive country and I like that sometimes, because they dont do so many crazy things like other countries to easily. They need time to convince themselves of things, tho the will to innovation always seems to be embedded on all levels no matter how conservative they are. I am known in my company for my ability to fix things or to come up with ideas how to fix things. Tho everybody knows I am a very crazy idea-generator, people trust me cause I build myself a trustable image. They know that I will look at a matter from different perspectives before I judge it. I even learnt to become a bit J for my work and sometimes judge things quickly, because they need to. It is important that people trust you first before you show them how you see the world.

I generally avoid people and only those who are intrested in me, I let in. If a sensorish guy blocks out my ideas kinda quickly and says I am flighty not living in the here and now, I quickly loosen this contact. So it's important for me to surround myself with people who help me, I am egoistic like that.

I can give yopu little advice on your gf situation, but the relationship I had with an ISFJ didnt play out at all. We had such an intensive language barrier that we never grew happy. It's totally different with an intuitive partner and tho I am not saying every N needs a N, I am at least convinbced that a primary insane N better needs a N partner, if N is a thing he values.

Maybe it would help if you could give some concrete examples of misunderstandings between you and your girlfriend. Some which are a bit deeper and not too superficial like map problems. Maybe then we can see what your real problem is here
 

MonkeyGrass

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I'm an INFJ in a committed relationship with an ISTP. This comes up really, really often for us, obviously! ;)

He trusts my intuition a lot more than I give him credit for, but, along the way, I have to put up with a lot of wry remarks about how little sense it makes until proven correct. :p On the flip side, his know-how skills in the physical world seem almost unparalleled to me, and after a couple of years of razzing him, I've come to trust his instincts about how something will work (or not work) nearly wholeheartedly.

The neverending quest for more data, though, tends to yank me to the mundane surface of life more than I can really tolerate, and tends to feel relentlessly critical to me. When I know something will work, I'm totally sure. I've already noodled the details, and to have to walk someone else through the process again is so boring to me, it's painful. And then, of course, there are the instances that I can SEE how something going to end up in my mind's eye (for instance, the brilliant color of paint in a small space), but can't really just project that on the wall for him to see. It's frustrating, and it requires some degree of trust from him. ;oP
 

The Machine Stops

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The primary roadblock for us is the concept of change and growth. It's easy for me to adapt, to adopt a new viewpoint. I grow readily, but she is highly rigid, and more and more, seemingly incapable of it.

For instance, her behavoir, her views, her attitudes and values show me that she is constructing a prison for herself. Isolating herself, blaming other people for her failures. If she doesn't make it in an interview, it's the fault of the system. Having blamed the system she now absolves herself from ever having to apply for another job in that field again. She has a Phd in Literature and works as a nanny, for a family member. Her prison is shrinking.

I am very good with dynamics such as these. They appear to me readily, but I cannot convince her that my "hunch" has any validity. The system is to blame. This person is to blame. That is to blame, but not her own view. Abstract concepts are meaningless, I cannot convince her that if she remains on the path she is taking, that the outcome will be as I say. The path that I see is merely fiction in my head, not something real. Or that her rigidity makes me feel like this relationship has turned into a one way street. There is a language barrier there, there is a barrier of perception. When I actually do break through to her, and she does listen to me, then she doesn't understand me. I speak in concepts, in abstracts, in metaphors, in philosophies, encompassing our relationship, and none of these have a value to her as concrete data. I ask if it is about faith, about trust, but I am told it's not, that we can both be right. But that I see as just another deflection for her to not move an inch from her position.

I'm not giving up on this relationship. I want to break through to her, and then be able to give her something that she can make sense of, that is useful to her, that she understands and can apply. This was pretty much what I was thinking of when I wrote that first post.
 

IZthe411

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The amount of trust I put into someone's intuition is on the same plane as anyone else's perception. The more erratic or off it is, the less likely I'm going to trust it.
 

entropie

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Hmhm, sounds indeed pretty difficult. I have become very rigid with age and given up to just hope for a situation to change; the idealist in me is long dead, dunno how much I can help you.

Really sounds like she needs a change in perspective. If I may ask, is she older than you (asking because of the PhD) ? The troubles you describe I have with my father who is an istp. He seems to be caught in a loop like that aswell, he has no desire to take any hope from a pool of abstract hopeful ideas or different concepts to view life, no he rather sulks in depression blaming the system and it's always the same story on repeat for 30 years.

My boss told me today that there are people who will always be intrested in change and that there are people who are happy when they are at home after work and finish work then. I dunno, maybe what your partner needs is the direct opposite from an abstract idea at the moment, maybe sensors need to sulk to be happy, I dunno. Or she would need a sensorish advice at the moment, maybe you know a person who is in a job you think your partner could like to and maybe you can bring the too together and see if it matches.

I'll post more if I have an idea, I definitly understand your problem, cause I come from a family I suffered equally for a long time that's maybe why I am blocking your problem out a bit atm aswell
 

MonkeyGrass

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Hmhm, sounds indeed pretty difficult. I have become very rigid with age and given up to just hope for a situation to change; the idealist in me is long dead, dunno how much I can help you.

You could say that you've become less rigid with age, then, since you've given up on idealistic hopes. In my life and relationships, once my pie in the sky ideals have died, they tend to leave room for realistic growth/change. For me, it's looked more like realizing that two very different personalities can co-exist peaceably without one or the other having to transform into the image of the other. I guess the outgrowth of dead ideals, for me, has been deeper respect/appreciation for the differences of the other. :muse: More live and let live, I guess.
 

entropie

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You could say that you've become less rigid with age, then, since you've given up on idealistic hopes. In my life and relationships, once my pie in the sky ideals have died, they tend to leave room for realistic growth/change. For me, it's looked more like realizing that two very different personalities can co-exist peaceably without one or the other having to transform into the image of the other. I guess the outgrowth of dead ideals, for me, has been deeper respect/appreciation for the differences of the other. :muse: More live and let live, I guess.

Those are the things I love you nf's for, I could never come up with something remotly like that :D. I see and understand
 

The Machine Stops

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Really sounds like she needs a change in perspective. If I may ask, is she older than you (asking because of the PhD) ?l

No, we're the same age.

MonkeyGrass said:
You could say that you've become less rigid with age, then, since you've given up on idealistic hopes. In my life and relationships, once my pie in the sky ideals have died, they tend to leave room for realistic growth/change. For me, it's looked more like realizing that two very different personalities can co-exist peaceably without one or the other having to transform into the image of the other. I guess the outgrowth of dead ideals, for me, has been deeper respect/appreciation for the differences of the other. :muse: More live and let live, I guess.

I agree with you. I've come to a place, even, where I think growth and change aren't important anymore. Thanks to her. A realization that, ironically, without either of those two factors, I wouldn't have been able to reach. I had this whole insight into how, really, people are perfect as they are, and growth is simply moving from one state of (spiritual, if you will) perfection to another. I could accept her stoic traditionalism among all those qualities about her that I adore, if it wasn't for her heading towards self destruction. I mean, she will learn, once life teaches her this lesson. She'll hit that iceberg she's heading towards and she will hit rock bottom, when even I have left her, and her prison finally closes on her throat and takes the air away she needs to breath... eventually, experience will teach her... but that is really painful to see in someone you care for.
 

entropie

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You sound pretty convinced that she will fail the way she's progressing. Have you ever entertained the thought that it may just be different for some people in life and that while N-Fe types could be called masters of avoiding the painful, some people need to experience it nonetheless to see it and to change then.

I sometimes noticed that it is a huge N arrogance to always think we know how it's done the right way, because the seemingly right way most often was only fitting for our own personalities
 

The Machine Stops

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You sound pretty convinced that she will fail the way she's progressing. Have you ever entertained the thought that it may just be different for some people in life and that while N-Fe types could be called masters of avoiding the painful, some people need to experience it nonetheless to see it and to change then.

I sometimes noticed that it is a huge N arrogance to always think we know how it's done the right way, because the seemingly right way most often was only fitting for our own personalities

I am convinced. I have a very good track record with her. I've gone deep inside her head and know her like the inside of my glove. I've peeled back her defenses to the core, gently, temporarily. Our relationship is really great in that respect. There are no secrets. There is just this one thing. I wish I was wrong, but there is confirmation and confirmation, for years now.

I just had a lightbulb moment.

Her need for security is absolute, but not realizable. This self imposed prison is all about security. Feeling safe. And I know why, and now I know what to do.
 

entropie

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I have to be honest with you, but your imagination to understand her to the core I find kinda frightening. I have the idea that you can really never understand a human that much that you think you know every move he'll make.

I really dont know your situation, but it sounds a bit like you'ld both need to work on yourselfs a bit
 

Habba

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What you say and the way you say it makes me think if she's not resisting your thoughts, but rather your authority. Your description makes me think she's ISFJ. They hate being belittled by others telling them what they should do. They feel it's a judgement of their persona that people try to control their lives.

If that so, there might be a big misunderstanding in the basic values...
"She has a Phd in Literature and works as a nanny, for a family member. Her prison is shrinking."

Does she agree that it is a prison? As far as I know, INFJs are driven by individual growth. It is everything to them, and not being able to grow as an independant person would feel like a prison to them. But the opposite of freedom is not a prison. It's commitment. What if she's happy having committed herself to something? Such commitments might help people find their place in this world. She's working for a family member... you see it as a fear of letting go of family, or as a chain that's pulling her to take care of her family. But what if she sees a great opportunity to combine both work AND family?

She'll hit that iceberg she's heading towards and she will hit rock bottom, when even I have left her, and her prison finally closes on her throat and takes the air away she needs to breath... eventually, experience will teach her... but that is really painful to see in someone you care for.

Isn't this extremely arrogant and patronizing of you? You are saying that she's completely incapable of controlling her life, and that you are her only chance of rescue. I would understand if she sees you trying to completely dominate her. And that kind of feeling makes it very difficult to accept any thoughts from your side... no matter how reasonable they would be.
 

The Machine Stops

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It's a clearly negotiated and consensual power exchange relationship. My authority, my dominance over her, these are things she wants. These are things that make her feel safe and protected. She is not happy with how her life is going. I would be happy if she were happy, but she isn't. She delegates blame, but it is always external, and something that cannot be changed. People she thinks are out for her without reason, institutions that by their very nature deny her a chance, so she doesn't even try, despite teaching being the job she dreams of. In this relationship, it is my job to control her life. The responsibility that I accepted and she gave, and part of that is kicking her ass out of her comfort zone. And I've done a good job so far. She's a much stronger woman than she used to be. There was a time when she was auto responsive, her submission a reflex. It more and more becomes something that she has control over, and I'm proud of her for that. I used to believe that her auto responsiveness to dominant energy was what had her build her cage. With the data at the time this made sense. That it was a means to protect herself from being taken advantage of.

Patronizing I am, in the sense that I give encouragement, positive reinforcement, feedback and financial support. And I am arrogant and stubborn when I think I am right. No doubt about that.

I've found this. I find it is stunningly accurate. This is basically what I have been telling her for two years.

The main driver to the ISFJ personality is Introverted Sensing, whose function is to define the properties of and locate and recognise the sometimes abstract and innate qualities of and between the objects of the outer world. If an ISFJs picture of the world is threatened by external influences, the ISFJ generally tries to shut such new information out of their lives. This is totally natural, and works well to protect the individual psyche from getting hurt. However, the ISFJ who exercises this type of self-protection regularly will become closed within a small and ever decreasing circle of those family and friends who do not actively disturb their increasingly narrow and rigid world view. They will always find justification for their own inappropriate behaviours, and will always find fault with the outside world for problems that they have in their lives. It will be difficult for them to maintain close personal relationships because they will have a negatively polarised and therefore limited ability to communicate outside of the box of their own security needs.

It all fits, the model of her personality makes sense, survives the reality check of her displayed behavior and emotional states. It also shows a path. A need for security denotes fear, the source of that fear is obvious to me, and the way to dealing with it is counseling. What she needs to do is beyond me and my abilities. I've always avoided that part of her. A sea of enormous size in her subconscious that on a map would be marked with dragons and explosives. What I can do, is send her to an expert, and hope for the best. And hope that it will not be as painful and frighting as I fear it will be.
 

SilkRoad

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I have to be honest with you, but your imagination to understand her to the core I find kinda frightening. I have the idea that you can really never understand a human that much that you think you know every move he'll make.

I really dont know your situation, but it sounds a bit like you'ld both need to work on yourselfs a bit

+1

Isn't this extremely arrogant and patronizing of you? You are saying that she's completely incapable of controlling her life, and that you are her only chance of rescue. I would understand if she sees you trying to completely dominate her. And that kind of feeling makes it very difficult to accept any thoughts from your side... no matter how reasonable they would be.

++1
 

The Machine Stops

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She did accept them. It was beautiful moment.

And I learned something, myself. Infjs have this reputation of coming off as arrogant and stubborn when they KNOW they are right. And I can see where this perception comes from now. It's because of how intuition works. How can someone be stubborn when they are readily acceptance of change and growth? How do you resolve this contradiction?

Well, I get a piece of data. It lands on the desk of my consciousness. I look at it, under hellishly bright fluorescent light, and throw it into the back room of my subconscious, completely confident that little magical gnomes there will sort it within a constantly changing kaleidoscope of data evaluation and pattern recognition. Everything anyone does, says, every external action anyone ever takes is a reflection of the internal self. Emotion is rational, logical, bound by causality, just like everything else. If you absorb this data and place it inside a constantly evolving framework of pattern recognition and action prediction you eventually end up with a working model of a personality and the ability to predict them. The ability to really know them, deeply.

A previous relationship of mine evolved into these constant explosions of passion where I was seen as immovably stubborn. "THERE IS NOTHING THAT I CAN SAY TO YOU!" is a phrase that comes to mind when she gave up getting through to me, trying to convince me of something, giving up the fight. But I always thought, of course there is, there is tons you can say to sway me. An infinite possibility of words that would make me change my stance in a second, if you would step outside of your pattern and give me new data. The reason I do not seemingly accept what you are saying is because you aren't saying anything that I haven't expected of you, and already accept as part of your internal system that expresses itself outward in every expression that you make, and is as such part of the problem on a whole that is leading you down the path that you are on. I wasn't this harshly self aware back then, nor did I really understand how someone could perceive differently. I was amazed that they could not see what I saw, how they were unaware of the dynamics playing themselves out over and over on an infinite loop. Can you not see the future? It is right in front of you. IN YOUR FACE!

I gave up the fight with this one. I didn't know how to communicate what I saw in a way that she could see it. For 8 years I tried to convince her of her self destructive ways and did what I could to hold her up. As expected, she hit rock bottom after I left. She was a fighter, nicknamed by family and friends as The Tank. Never gave up, never surrendered, always self sacrificing for others. She was taken for granted and somehow nobody could see how it consumed her. As expected she ended up having a breakdown because of it. She ended in the hospital because of it. Burnt out psychologically, and physically. Her body simply shut down, saying enough is enough. No more, not ever.

She changed, then. At an unimaginable cost that she'll never recover from. And after her part in our dynamic tore us apart.

How I am not supposed to fight this when I see it, I don't know.

Now I have an understanding of sensing. What I had to do, was go into this back room of my subconscious and drag out individual pieces that shaped the changing states of the kaleidoscope of interconnected data for pattern recognition. That was really difficult for me. There is no light switch in there. And those little gremlins of my subconscious don't know how to organize for shit. My memory is mainly emotional, reconstructing events by impacts and changes in concepts rather than specific details. It's like trying to put paint back into a container after the picture has already been painted with it. If god is in the details, I'm doomed to burn in hell.

But I managed. Sitting down, taking notes, wracking my brain, enough specific examples to get through to her. Enough for her to draw from the past to the present. And I did it within an atmosphere of acceptance.

"If you don't stop being so understanding I'm never going to stop crying"

We're not at change yet. But she accepted that yes, there is a problem, and yes, I MIGHT be right about where it is heading, because enough of the course has been reconstructed with specific details outlining a linear progression, causality, for her to be able to see it, now, too. And because her body told her I was right even when she was still unbelieving. She said that if I wasn't hitting bullseyes all over the place, she wouldn't feel like this. Which is interesting... and sort of alien to me. I have a distant memory of what that used to be like. There is something soothing about the thought of being only aware of ones surface expressions of the subconscious. How it makes one feel physically. The jaw that clenches as a sign that something is up. The tip of the iceberg. It's much less complicated to deal with. And it's easy to understand how, with only that perception, one can fall into a pattern of avoidance. She doesn't want to accept it yet, that she has to seek help to do something about it, but accepting that she is on a self destructive path is a big first step, and one that makes me hopeful.

If you think you can never know someone like that... I'm going to tell the story of another infj I've met in another thread. One without values that I can see. A nihilist, perhaps. One with a deeper understanding than myself. Who didn't work with dynamics on an individual basis alone, but with groups. One much more... effective.
 

Giggly

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Do you trust her intuition?

I imagine it to be an extremely beautiful thing to trust each others intuition. I'd really love to see two people mutually doing that.
 
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