[MBTI General] ISTJ Help! ISTJs & INFPs

[Adasta]

I've finally succeeded in typing most of my friends and now it's come to the ISTJ. I've also got a friend who I recently figured out was an ISFJ (there's a thread about it) but I find the far more confusing.

What do you ISTJs think of INFPs if you know any? Less specifically, can you just tell me how you would respond to these questions/ideas/concepts?

1. How do you feel when people don't seem to care about "duty" in the same why you do? Most of my disputes with my ISTJ result in me asking why she cares about it so much (society, for example), and her asking me why I don't place as much value on it as she does. To me, society seems to be one part of a whole that I might reject for whatever reason; to her, society is almost the be all and end all of human expression: since we're in it, we are of it.
2. Is an unwavering loyalty to a personal ideology admirable, laughable, indulgent or something else? I tend to deny the pragmatic elements of life (e.g. in politics, I might reject something that seems to treat something ad-hoc but undermines an overall ideological viewpoint) if I don't value it. I think this appears too extreme to my ISTJ, but she seems to harbour a certain amount of respect towards my loyalty to my own beliefs.
3. Would you say that "slackers" irritate you the most?

 

[MBTI Enthusiast]

What do you ISTJs think of INFPs if you know any? [/list]

My sister and one of my best friends are INFPs, although they are quite different. I get along with both quite well, we have become accepting of each other and have come to understand each other's points of view.

1. I can't really relate to your friend's duty to society, but if either my INFP sister or my friend did not agree with something that I valued, I would probably feel disappointed in them that they didn't believe in something that seemed so obvious to me, and then just turn my head and try to forget about our differences. I've realized that others have different values than I do and it is not my place to impose my values on anyone.

2. I think unwavering loyalty to a personal ideology is admirable. I believe ISTJs have unwavering loyalties to their personal beliefs as well?

3. "Slackers" can irritate me, but it depends on the situation. If they are slacking in school, and their slacking has no effect on me, then whatever, of course they can do what they please and face any consequences. But if their slacking affects me personally then I get frustrated. For instance, I let my INFP friend borrow things (too often, I'm starting to think) and she won't return them for extended periods of time and when she does finally return it, it is usually not in the pristine condition I gave it to her.

I would say that the thing that irritates me the most about my friend may be her lack of cleanliness, but only because she is one of my roommates this year, so it affects me. If she were living somewhere else, I would probably not care how messy she was.

 

[Habba]

INFP buzzwords:
Cute, Difficult, Intriguing, Spiritual, Fluffy, Fragile, Sensitive, Caring.

[*]How do you feel when people don't seem to care about "duty" in the same why you do?

If you have agreed to do something, I expect you to give your 100% to perform it. Anything else is a disgrace and a lie, which makes you less worthy. But I don't expect you to do fulfill your duty, if you never agreed doing it in the first place. For example, in Finland we have mandatory military service (6-12 months). I don't mind if someone manages to skip it with lies (some people are diagnosised not being fit for the army, for mental or health related issues). And I care even less if someone picks up an alternative community service (13 months) or chooses to serve unarmed (as a cook or medic). However, I do strongly object if you start avoiding tasks during the service, and thus make it more difficult for the others. So, I dislike people who need to be "carried" because they are lazy or otherwise choose not to do their part.

Most of my disputes with my ISTJ result in me asking why she cares about it so much (society, for example)

Be reminded that not every ISTJ cares about the society. I think it's more of a EJ type of personalities that want to take part in the society. I for one abstain from voting since I think the current democratic process is meaningless and a mere theather. But I do like reading news about the progress of city infrastructure (they are actually planning some few big changes to the city where I live in... which is by the way the best city in the best country , and I've got research to back it up. ).

[*]Is an unwavering loyalty to a personal ideology admirable, laughable, indulgent or something else? I tend to deny the pragmatic elements of life (e.g. in politics, I might reject something that seems to treat something ad-hoc but undermines an overall ideological viewpoint) if I don't value it. I think this appears too extreme to my ISTJ, but she seems to harbour a certain amount of respect towards my loyalty to my own beliefs.

It is laughable, when you don't know why you are doing it. Well... not exactly laughable, since I don't like laughing at others (been laughted at far too many times, so I know how it can hurt). Sure, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I prefer rationality over sentimental values. Take religion for an example. A whole lot of people believe in their god(s) only because they have been brought up that way. If it wasn't like that, religions would be far more mixed geographically than they are. Also good majority of religion are in contradiction of each other, so they are either all terribly off, or there's only one true religion. So, believing that your very own religion, that you inhereted from your parents (and they from their parents, etc), is very selfish and short-sighted.

So... unwavering loyalty is good. Unwavering stubborness on the otherhand is not.

[*]Would you say that "slackers" irritate you the most?
[/list]

Only when done at the expense of others.

 

[IZthe411]

What do you ISTJs think of INFPs if you know any? Less specifically, can you just tell me how you would respond to these questions/ideas/concepts?

I know one. I thought he was gay when I first met him- not that it mattered. But he's a cool guy, just kind of quiet and unassuming.

[*]How do you feel when people don't seem to care about "duty" in the same why you do? Most of my disputes with my ISTJ result in me asking why she cares about it so much (society, for example), and her asking me why I don't place as much value on it as she does. To me, society seems to be one part of a whole that I might reject for whatever reason; to her, society is almost the be all and end all of human expression: since we're in it, we are of it.

I did when I was younger, but I've learned that everyone's different. Nobody has to do anything really. I know for myself I want to do my best at whatever I do. I try not to judge others by what they do or don't do, according to my standards.

[*]Is an unwavering loyalty to a personal ideology admirable, laughable, indulgent or something else? I tend to deny the pragmatic elements of life (e.g. in politics, I might reject something that seems to treat something ad-hoc but undermines an overall ideological viewpoint) if I don't value it. I think this appears too extreme to my ISTJ, but she seems to harbour a certain amount of respect towards my loyalty to my own beliefs.

Integrity is admirable. Stand for something- I'll respect you more. Learning MBTI has taught me about Fi and Ti, and when I learn that a person's viewpoint is coming from that aspect, I'm more prone to respect it. I'll back off. If their stand is based off ignorance or laziness, that's a different matter.

[*]Would you say that "slackers" irritate you the most?

Nah- liars and thieves irritate me the most. I can't be irritated by slackers b/c I slack off myself sometimes. Just be ready when it matters.

 

[tkae.]

Integrity is admirable. Stand for something- I'll respect you more. Learning MBTI has taught me about Fi and Ti, and when I learn that a person's viewpoint is coming from that aspect, I'm more prone to respect it. I'll back off. If their stand is based off ignorance or laziness, that's a different matter.

What qualifications do you use for "ignorance" and "laziness"?

I'm very dedicated to my anarchist ideologies, but I'm pretty sure quite a few of the more traditionally-minded SJs would chalk that up as ignorance where I'd maintain that their dedication to a small-minded, archaic concept of political structure is more ignorant than my progressive beliefs.

So where do you make the distinction between semantics and "legitimate" beliefs?

Nah- liars and thieves irritate me the most. I can't be irritated by slackers b/c I slack off myself sometimes. Just be ready when it matters.

Again, what qualifications do you use for "when it matters"?

Me and my mom, who's an ESFJ, have very radically differing definitions of that phrase.

To her, it matters when there's the potential for unpreparedness.

To me, it matters when there's the risk of being unprepared.

She'll make sure that she's never at risk of being unprepared, where I'll begin getting prepared when it's actually possible I might not be prepared.

So what's your definition of it?

 

[cogdecree]

I think you are hugging the mbti a little to close on this specific issue,

1) Appears to be a simple divide in interest/opinion, in which case perhaps this person is looking for you to defend or explain your stance

2) I think this issue you are encountering here is not about loyalty but about a logical framework and consistency that this is what your friend might be looking for in your disputes.

3) I would only image this would be the case if the ISTJ were depending/planning on the person to fulfill some task or if somehow the person's slacking off effected the income, work, or time (or overall wellbeing) of the ISTJ.

One of my oldest friends whom I've known since 6 and currently attend college with is an INFP. We get along great, we have long discussions on life, though we don't argue (though this is mainly due to the fact that he isn't interested in topics which are debatable and he doesn't put forward items which he believes might require him to defend), I actually drag opinions out of him just out of curiosity.

He does not juggle a whole lot of people at one time, and focuses time with one or two individuals over a given time period (days/weeks). Tends to not say things directly, preferring others to take the hint when he wants to relay a potentially unwanted response. Empathy comes easy, even towards those who cause him grief. I’ve seen this empathy manifest itself into something dark even over minor issues when it came to a perceived wrong over a love interest (though this is extremely rare and more likely a reponse to an inured loved one). He definitely feeds off of positive energy (which I don’t emit) and can be quite silly/fun and even outgoing if our ENTP friend comes onto the scene. He loves physics, music, and long walks on the beach.

That’s my quick snapshot of my INFP friend at any rate.

 

[IZthe411]

What qualifications do you use for "ignorance" and "laziness"?

I'm very dedicated to my anarchist ideologies, but I'm pretty sure quite a few of the more traditionally-minded SJs would chalk that up as ignorance where I'd maintain that their dedication to a small-minded, archaic concept of political structure is more ignorant than my progressive beliefs.

When there's evidence that you are speaking based of some preconceived notion, or what you were fed in a situation, without any desire on your own to figure out for yourself how the subject fits into your values, that's ignorance and laziness.

Like someone speaking based on what they are told vs someone who has had experience to back up where they are coming from. Not saying that experience exactly legitimizes things, but it's better than relying on heresay or word of mouth.

I can't speak for all SJs, and why I'm not going at any type here. This is based on my experience. There are a lot of other types who have "small minded" opinions as well- or it seems.

So where do you make the distinction between semantics and "legitimate" beliefs?

You got to figure out where a person is coming from before you can distinguish. We don't have that luxury in all cases. I'm talking in cases where you have some time to figure these things out.

Again, what qualifications do you use for "when it matters"?

Me and my mom, who's an ESFJ, have very radically differing definitions of that phrase.

To her, it matters when there's the potential for unpreparedness.

To me, it matters when there's the risk of being unprepared.

She'll make sure that she's never at risk of being unprepared, where I'll begin getting prepared when it's actually possible I might not be prepared.

So what's your definition of it?

I get what you are saying here- but this is 6 of one and half dozen of another here, correct? I'd say this is more of a J/P issue. She's on top of it; you're more just in time. I don't care which approach, whatever the definition of 'ready' is in that situation, when it's in your control, make it happen.

 

[Gerbah]

What do you ISTJs think of INFPs if you know any?

I know one person who has tested as INFP. He gives me the impression of being very much in his own world. It doesn't bother me and I don't try to drag him out of it and just leave him to be as he is. When he does interact, it is generally pleasant and relaxed, at the same time kind of superficial in the sense that I feel him as somehow inaccessible. Sometimes he surprises me because he'll be really quiet and then suddenly start talking for a long time about a random topic.

How do you feel when people don't seem to care about "duty" in the same why you do?

On an individual level, whether or not a person cares about “duty” doesn't bother me if it's not got anything to do with me directly and isn't affecting my life. A person's values are their own responsibility. On a group level, corruption in society and people who abuse other people for their own gain do bother me.

Is an unwavering loyalty to a personal ideology admirable, laughable, indulgent or something else?

It depends on the ideology. I cannot admire loyalty if it is attached to something irrational or evil, etc. At the same time, I do appreciate it if a person has a sincere desire to do the right thing, whether or not I agree with what they think is right. They should just tolerate that I also have the freedom to do what I think is right.

Would you say that "slackers" irritate you the most?

A “slacker” would only irritate me if they were somehow impacting my life negatively. I don't see why I should tolerate being used or abused. Otherwise, I don't see whether or not someone is “slacking” as my business. I assume adults can make their own decisions and handle their own lives how they want.

 

[AutumnReverie]

[*]How do you feel when people don't seem to care about "duty" in the same why you do?

I'm not sure about the whole "society" stance that your friend has -- I can't really relate to that. But as far as the other part of the question: If someone doesn't value "duty" as much as I do, I don't think less of them or anything.

However if they have committed themselves to doing something then, yes, I do think that they should follow through with their duty to the best of their ability. Especially if it's something that they volunteered for and something that other people are depending on them to follow through on.

[*]Is an unwavering loyalty to a personal ideology admirable, laughable, indulgent or something else? I tend to deny the pragmatic elements of life (e.g. in politics, I might reject something that seems to treat something ad-hoc but undermines an overall ideological viewpoint) if I don't value it. I think this appears too extreme to my ISTJ, but she seems to harbour a certain amount of respect towards my loyalty to my own beliefs.

Even if I disagreed with you, if you're ideology is based on substantial well-researched "evidence", then I would respect and admire that. Obviously if I believe otherwise then I have my own reasons/evidence/etc. but I would respect someone who took the time to actually thoroughly think about their position.

As for respecting someone who has an unwavering loyalty to a personal ideology -- not really. "Unwavering" makes it sound like, even despite a logical counter-argument/past experience/practical application showing that it won't work/etc that you would still refuse to abandon or question your ideology. I don't see that as admirable, rather I see it as irrational and stubborn.

However, I agree with Gerbah that "if a person has a sincere desire to do the right thing, whether or not I agree with what they think is right" then I do admire that.

[*]Would you say that "slackers" irritate you the most?

"Slacking" would only irritate me if I end up having to pick up that slack/take over the responsibilities that the "slacker" is failing to do.


The INFP that I know is sort of like a mentor to me and one of my favorite people to talk to. We don't usually talk about politics or religion (because our opinions are very different) but we talk about life. I would describe her as good listener, caring, spiritual, open-minded, non-confrontational, and sensitive.

 

[Adasta]

The INFP that I know is sort of like a mentor to me and one of my favorite people to talk to. We don't usually talk about politics or religion (because our opinions are very different) but we talk about life. I would describe her as good listener, caring, spiritual, open-minded, non-confrontational, and sensitive.

Talking politics with my ISTJ is tricky, particularly since she works for an MP. I never think she has fully considered the wider (philosophical) implications of her views; she thinks I am out of touch with reality. We have completely different opinions on a lot of things in that area.

However, she often seems to suggest that I have some sort of greater insight into life problems in general; to me, she seems to get wrapped up with the nitty-gritty far too frequently. She'll get wound up because her life isn't going the way she wants it to go and I'll explain how these things aren't a big deal. This usually occurs via metaphors about life and reference to poetry/plays

Would you agee that the contrast seems to be between attempts to deconstruct and conquer aspects of the phenomenal, everyday world (ISTJ) and the concentration upon and exposition of the imaginative world of metaphor (INFP)? The contrast need not be antagonistic, I hasten to add...