# Thread: How far can N be improved?

1. ## How far can N be improved?

Hello. I am new to this forum. I found the forum through googling about personalities and my specific personality ISTJ. Actually, I found the INTP sub-forum first and then found my way here.

I am an ISTJ. In college I majored in economics and mathematics. Within mathematics, though I earned good marks, I do not consider myself great at mathematics. To mathematicians, for example, real mathematics is in proving and creating new theorems (something which I was not great at). Real mathematics is not being able to solve textbook type problems (which I was great at). For the mathematicians out there, I was the guy in the back of the class who, after hearing the instructor introduce and speak on a new theorem, would shout: "Can you give us an example?"

I also had similar problems in philosophy class in understanding the abstract ideas. The only philosophy class I was good at was symbolic logic, which is just showing the truth or validity of arguments within the closed system of the rules of logic (something which I am good at -- operating within the closed system and following their rules).

Another example is computer science class, which I also did good in. However, I would never think of myself as a capable programmer because if I had to set up a system from scratch, I think I would probably freak out!

In short, I am a wannabe N. I want to be able to understand abstract ideas and theories without having have them be applicable in the real world. I want to be more than good at "operating within the system". I want to be able to create the systems as well. I want to understand the big picture and how it all fits together too. But I think this is very hard for an ISTJ since, from my reading, N is the weakest trait... Thank you...

2. then take more physics. I've almost a minor and i see what is likely a good % of SJs in many classes, I would guess primarily STJs. You guys have the perfect tools for formal physics in my opinion, Te for math and Si for making keen accurate observations, and you can get the abstraction over time just by observing - Ne works on observations as well as imaginations!

I believe Dalton is a good textbook case of an ISTJ who fully developed and excercised his Ne. Just sit around, and reflect, its good for you! You guys have a lot of potential in the physical sciences, and i'm saying that as an arrogant-minded NT here

3. Originally Posted by nozflubber
then take more physics. I've almost a minor and i see what is likely a good % of SJs in many classes, I would guess primarily STJs. You guys have the perfect tools for formal physics in my opinion, Te for math and Si for making keen accurate observations, and you can get the abstraction over time just by observing - Ne works on observations as well as imaginations!

I believe Dalton is a good textbook case of an ISTJ who fully developed and excercised his Ne. Just sit around, and reflect, its good for you! You guys have a lot of potential in the physical sciences, and i'm saying that as an arrogant-minded NT here
You are right, you are right. But look at what you described. I need to look at the data and the observations first before understanding the theorems. This is not N at all!

4. Who's Dalton by the way?

5. john dalton was the founder of the modern theory of the atom. I am proposing he is ISTJ for heuristic purposes on what that might be like for ISTJs (develpoing N)

He basically developed his theories and ideas all off of his lifelong hobby of observation of weather patterns. he kept strict records of data and everything for like 20+ years. In other words, in MBTI land, you don't develop N... the N finds and develops YOU!!!

ITS A MONSTARRRR arrrr

6. An ISTJ has Ne, which is more about actively exploring new ideas and avenues of investigation than simply considering abstract ideas. To explore this way of relating to the world you should try experimenting with stuff, just to see if you can get it to work.

Have a look at this video at how to make impossible shapes, then try making some yourself. Why? Just to see if you can.

IMPOSSIBLE SOLIDS - Discovery of New 3D Optical Illusion -｜明治大学グローバルCOEプログラム 現象数理学の形成と発展

7. It might be reassuring to note as well that all through your life you'll be developing your function use, and Ne will come more naturally over time.

8. I would start by making associations between things that have no obvious relationship. Just remember to turn off your inner critic for a while when you do this, so the connections are stable long enough for you to form another conection with some other (seemingly unrelated) concept, and so on, until you find a connection that sparks you to explore it further.
Also, once you find an interesting connection, see if you can 'elevate' your perspective to see what the over-arching principle that defines the ralationship is.
It's hard for me to clarify this too much further. I'm very 'N' and this is how I tend to think.

9. Originally Posted by nebbykoo
I would start by making associations between things that have no obvious relationship. Just remember to turn off your inner critic for a while when you do this, so the connections are stable long enough for you to form another conection with some other (seemingly unrelated) concept, and so on, until you find a connection that sparks you to explore it further.
Also, once you find an interesting connection, see if you can 'elevate' your perspective to see what the over-arching principle that defines the ralationship is.
It's hard for me to clarify this too much further. I'm very 'N' and this is how I tend to think.
Can you give an example?

10. I guess my larger question is, how far am I limited by my ISTJ-ness for doing N type things?

If you look at the list of famous ISTJs, there are no great scientific or philosophical thinkers on the list...

If an ISTJ manages to get into Computer Science / Programming, usually he is not the one designing the complete system/program on the team. He is the one that operates within the existing code/structures -- like debugging or lower-level things like that...

I also still want to be able to think abstractly and understand the thinking of the great philosophers and scientists. ..

I don't want to just be good at operating within the system. I want to be able to think like N and look at things from multiple perspectives and see the big picture and be able to design from scratch...

If I was in IT/Computer Science, I wouldn't want to be relegated to doing the mop up work or low-level analysis...

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