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[ISTJ] Could the ISTJ be considered a Rational personality?

Jstrazz

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rational? hardly, istj is the most common personality with emotional lying problems,(compulsive lying) ie inability not to lie because of emotional reasons. if theres an istj who doesnt have this problem, then they have my full respect.

irrationality, i think its source is disintegration, and every type is equally liable to that.

on other notes, i think sx so is the most rational minded of instincts.

I am not sure where all of that came from, or if you had a really really bad experience with an ISTJ, but as an ISTJ myself who knows over 15 other ISTJ's I would say ISTJ's are not emotional in the least, and if they are they hide it and compartmentalize it. In addition, I have never known an ISTJ to lie, least of all compulsively lie. I think, given your standards, most of not all ISTJ's would receive your full respect.

I don't compulsive lying, in and of itself a very negative attribute, can be awarded to any MBTI type. I think all of us have the potential to be either very rational or equally irrational. I do believe however, that some of us are predisposed to certain ways of thinking and visa-versus. Whereas the Enneagram and the MBTI have 9 and 16 options respectively, sx/so/sp are very few to make a broad generalization concerning who is and is not rational. In addition, rationality is not analogous to instinct. They complement each other in certain people and situations, but instincts and intuition are not the mark of rational thought or behavior.
 

Vilku

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Interesting. What does this mean?

i think each instinct combo has their true philosophy or religion, meaning they have a natural way of gravitating to those even if they dont see it themselves. for sp sx its pessimism, so sp capitalism and superficialty, sx so rationalism, sx sp christianity, sp so common sense and so sx buddhism, taoism and hippieism.

for me, as an sx so for example, before, the years 8 to 18 i thought all philosophies and religions were silly stupid, and without realizing my own philosophy at the times was that of intelligence and rationality, but now i realize it has always been that way because i gravitate to my natural instincts. even if i followed christianity, i still do my decisions concerning it because i think its the smart thing, and stupid to otherwise.

i do see that each instinct has two other instincts beliefs/views which they find useful to themselves, although it will still all be done in a very way natural to your instincts. like for me delving into taoism which is so sx, but i do it slightly differently, in a more rational way cause im an sx so.

for example, where they believe in reincarnation, i rationalize as simply all psychological settings being the same, where they believe in the collective unconscious, i rationalize as the survival of species by teamwork and unconscious communication.

I am not sure where all of that came from, or if you had a really really bad experience with an ISTJ, but as an ISTJ myself who knows over 15 other ISTJ's I would say ISTJ's are not emotional in the least, and if they are they hide it and compartmentalize it. In addition, I have never known an ISTJ to lie, least of all compulsively lie. I think, given your standards, most of not all ISTJ's would receive your full respect.

I don't compulsive lying, in and of itself a very negative attribute, can be awarded to any MBTI type. I think all of us have the potential to be either very rational or equally irrational. I do believe however, that some of us are predisposed to certain ways of thinking and visa-versus. Whereas the Enneagram and the MBTI have 9 and 16 options respectively, sx/so/sp are very few to make a broad generalization concerning who is and is not rational. In addition, rationality is not analogous to instinct. They complement each other in certain people and situations, but instincts and intuition are not the mark of rational thought or behavior.

well then im very glad the rest of the world isnt as contaminated as the one ive been facing with.

and yes i think istj's hide their emotionality, but to me its very apparent cause im intuitively attuned to these things. i think emotionality is what guides much of their standards, but maybe thats just cause im a Ti user so i observe them using Fi where i would be cold rational, so i perceive every bit of it as irrationality. like "norms", much of their norms are useless and irrational, only slowing down the pace of efficacy, which annoys me.
 

Thalassa

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I trust ISTJs COMPLETELY with rationality and order; I actually think in some ways they seem more rational than INTJs, but only because they're mor e "earth bound" by Si.

In truth neither INTJ nor ISTJ are truly "rational" but that's the Te face they typically show to most people. The Ni or Si inner world is actually their primary ego and point of perception. Ni and Si are both completely wacky for different reasons, people who don't realize just how wacky Si can be probably don't even realize that some of the "eccentric" or structured yet cool people they know are actually ISxJs.

I view Te largely as being more rational in a lot of ways than Ti, but that's because of a personal preference, so I would tend to trust an ISTJ with my life probably before an ENTP, even though ENTP is called a "rational."
 

Thalassa

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I am not sure where all of that came from, or if you had a really really bad experience with an ISTJ, but as an ISTJ myself who knows over 15 other ISTJ's I would say ISTJ's are not emotional in the least, and if they are they hide it and compartmentalize it. In addition, I have never known an ISTJ to lie, least of all compulsively lie. I think, given your standards, most of not all ISTJ's would receive your full respect.

This is also my experience, they are similar to INTJs in that way; same with the "cold" politeness that's not really warm or Fe, but rather a self-control point of pride or a way of getting people to leave them alone. Propriety, I think it's called. I think propriety is actually very ISTJ.

"I am quite sorry that you think I am a total bastard, but I hope you have a nice evening all the same" with not so much as a twitch.

The thing is, though, I've been close enough to ISTJs to see them lose it. IxTJs can have Fi shit fits, especially with the people they've "let in" like family members, lovers, and very close friends.

An ISTJ female once told me that I reminded her a lot of herself, except she keeps it all under control inside.

I think that has something to do with Fi and its placement.

ISTJs mostly seem "irrational" for typical Si dom reasons, such as "this isn't normal, we didn't meet in a normal expected way, so our relationship may not work!!" :huh:

Stuff like that. Like irrationally perceiving things as right or wrong based upon their past experience or Si normative standards.
 

sculpting

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rational? hardly, istj is the most common personality with emotional lying problems,(compulsive lying) ie inability not to lie because of emotional reasons. if theres an istj who doesnt have this problem, then they have my full respect.

irrationality, i think its source is disintegration, and every type is equally liable to that.

on other notes, i think sx so is the most rational minded of instincts.

I have known many ISTJs as friends and I dont see what you are describing-I suspect you are seeing reality, but the mistake is then projecting your own worldview and thought patterns onto the ISTJ leading to an incorrect interp of motive.

ISTJs may be perceiveind to be lying for two reasons:

1. I have seen them to recall what "should be true" logistically rather than what the specific truth was, especially if some time has elapsed. I would not this most in large project meetings, where an entp project manager would write down a decision made by the group, but a month (and a million thoughts) later, often the ISTJs would revert to what the "standard" decision should have been, not the actual decision. When reminded, they would go "Oh yeah, we did decide that." I attribute thei to Si having avery storng set of rules and it will overweight the occasinal Se deviance

2. Emotionally they will reason with SiFi. They can be extremely intense, devoted and loving, but in a very tert Fi way, so it can be undeveloped Fi. Calling this immature or childlike is incorrect, as they are functionaling EXACTLY as they should, but it is Fi reasoning on a less developed scale that one would see in an Fi dom/aux. SiFi is rational, but in a way that will confound most Ti users, and in a way that can be incredibly concrete and difficult to change. To an external listener trying to understand, who doesnt understand the SiFi rules, it could appear very contridictory in nature. So not a lie, but simply a ruleset you are not privy to, which is used to generate a judgement.

Quite funnily, I would suspect the ISTJs you are dealing with might feel that you are lying or being emotionally evasive in return, for the same types of reasons.
 

Coriolis

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This is also my experience, they are similar to INTJs in that way; same with the "cold" politeness that's not really warm or Fe, but rather a self-control point of pride or a way of getting people to leave them alone. Propriety, I think it's called. I think propriety is actually very ISTJ.

"I am quite sorry that you think I am a total bastard, but I hope you have a nice evening all the same" with not so much as a twitch.
Good grief - I have said as much to people on several occasions. Your assessment above does indeed describe many INTJs, especially in the reasons for the observed behavior. We are polite to others in service to ourselves moreso than to them (Fi vs. Fe again).

I agree overall with your assessment of ISTJs. Aside of my SO (INTP), the few people I would trust with my life have all been STJs.
 

Vilku

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I have known many ISTJs as friends and I dont see what you are describing-I suspect you are seeing reality, but the mistake is then projecting your own worldview and thought patterns onto the ISTJ leading to an incorrect interp of motive.

ISTJs may be perceiveind to be lying for two reasons:

1. I have seen them to recall what "should be true" logistically rather than what the specific truth was, especially if some time has elapsed. I would not this most in large project meetings, where an entp project manager would write down a decision made by the group, but a month (and a million thoughts) later, often the ISTJs would revert to what the "standard" decision should have been, not the actual decision. When reminded, they would go "Oh yeah, we did decide that." I attribute thei to Si having avery storng set of rules and it will overweight the occasinal Se deviance

2. Emotionally they will reason with SiFi. They can be extremely intense, devoted and loving, but in a very tert Fi way, so it can be undeveloped Fi. Calling this immature or childlike is incorrect, as they are functionaling EXACTLY as they should, but it is Fi reasoning on a less developed scale that one would see in an Fi dom/aux. SiFi is rational, but in a way that will confound most Ti users, and in a way that can be incredibly concrete and difficult to change. To an external listener trying to understand, who doesnt understand the SiFi rules, it could appear very contridictory in nature. So not a lie, but simply a ruleset you are not privy to, which is used to generate a judgement.

you know, im talking about people who are messed in a web of lies who themselves know this is bad yet they cant choose otherwise because of the emotional attachment to lying. and those who do this but havent yet got to the point where the web is too over whelming so they think its fine to be amoral.

"Quite funnily, I would suspect the ISTJs you are dealing with might feel that you are lying or being emotionally evasive in return, for the same types of reasons."

perhaps but theres a clear difference between morality and amorality, and i do make the effort of showing them that i respect their view by adapting myself into what they think i should be, and i see this strategy has so far always brought good results. i think si fi and fi si love feels funny, and usually makes me think "ohh thats so silly and cute, you love me, AWW! <3 =]" which might seem aa' bit derogatory reaction to their affection.

im fine with istj's who encourage people to get through their emotional blocks with verbal skills, as long as it remains in the side where its done for the benefit of receiver, not the self.

but every one of those who do it for the self corrupt the image of them all.

and i do am aware that istj's perceive the means as elusive while the results as concrete, this making their stance whether its for the self or not as emphasized.

I view Te largely as being more rational in a lot of ways than Ti, but that's because of a personal preference, so I would tend to trust an ISTJ with my life probably before an ENTP, even though ENTP is called a "rational."

then you better hope its one of the good istj's, cause theres equally much the abusive kind of istj's in this mad world who would just use you like a tool for their selfish twisted desires.

that would be like rolling dice, and blindly hoping for the good. you should really concentrate on seeing people for who they are cause otherwise youll end up like me, betrayed. trust isnt commodity which should be freely shared in this crazy world cause there are always people who abuse it.

although i know entp's too have darkside like all types, i would still probably trust every entp i meet on my road with my full heart, but thats just cause they are my soul mate match so im not that cautious with them as im with others.
 

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[MENTION=15003]Vilku[/MENTION] I am curious, who is this sole person (ISTJ) that has so tainted your view of all ISTJ's? They must have done a number on you of incalculable damage as to leave you having such negative views of ISTJ's. You almost make it sound like ISTJ's are plotting to take over the world for their own selfish desires. I would encourage you to actively meet other ISTJ's, so that they can give you a clearer and hopefully more optimistic view of ISTJ's as a whole. Also be warned, INFJ's intuition and instincts about people may be useful and accurate a good portion of the time, but it is not foolproof, what you sense in others (in particular this ISTJ) may be quite different from what s/he is actually thinking/feeling/behaving as.
 

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Good grief - I have said as much to people on several occasions. Your assessment above does indeed describe many INTJs, especially in the reasons for the observed behavior. We are polite to others in service to ourselves moreso than to them (Fi vs. Fe again).

I agree overall with your assessment of ISTJs. Aside of my SO (INTP), the few people I would trust with my life have all been STJs.

I admire it so much. I mean I think I almost have to end up marrying an IxTJ. It's totally irresistable to me that if I throw a fit someone is the "voice of reason" or doesn't break chracter from external motives ...however, I have to have an IxTJ with well-developed Fi who will in fact express emotion from their own internal self, though. I like "softer" IxTJs who aren't as dry (ISTJ) or robotic (INTJ) but have that Fi maturity that gives them a really subtle softness, and an ability express feelings when they feel safe, instead of trying to control EVERYTHING with Te. IxTJs who over-rely on Te or have really immature Fi are the bane of my existence. It's why I either tend to love or hate INTJs, and can be wildly attracted to some ISTJs and feel like others are so fucking boring I'd rather watch paint dry. It's intelligence, maturity, but it's also just Fi.

I admire someone who has that level of self-control, especially when it's self rather than other's motivated, because to me that is like some pinnacle of masculine strength. I think I may feel this way because my father figure was an ISTJ.
 

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Good grief - I have said as much to people on several occasions. Your assessment above does indeed describe many INTJs, especially in the reasons for the observed behavior. We are polite to others in service to ourselves moreso than to them (Fi vs. Fe again).

I agree overall with your assessment of ISTJs. Aside of my SO (INTP), the few people I would trust with my life have all been STJs.

I admire it so much. I mean I think I almost have to end up marrying an IxTJ. It's totally irresistable to me that if I throw a fit someone is the "voice of reason" or doesn't break chracter from external motives ...however, I have to have an IxTJ with well-developed Fi who will in fact express emotion from their own internal self, though. I like "softer" IxTJs who aren't as dry (ISTJ) or robotic (INTJ) but have that Fi maturity that gives them a really subtle softness, and an ability express feelings when they feel safe, instead of trying to control EVERYTHING with Te. IxTJs who over-rely on Te or have really immature Fi are the bane of my existence. It's why I either tend to love or hate INTJs, and can be wildly attracted to some ISTJs and feel like others are so fucking boring I'd rather watch paint dry. It's intelligence, maturity, but it's also just Fi.

I admire someone who has that level of self-control, especially when it's self rather than other's motivated, because to me that is like some pinnacle of masculine strength. I think I may feel this way because my father figure was an ISTJ.
 

Thalassa

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that would be like rolling dice, and blindly hoping for the good. you should really concentrate on seeing people for who they are cause otherwise youll end up like me, betrayed. trust isnt commodity which should be freely shared in this crazy world cause there are always people who abuse it.

although i know entp's too have darkside like all types, i would still probably trust every entp i meet on my road with my full heart, but thats just cause they are my soul mate match so im not that cautious with them as im with others.

I don't think you understand what I meant, but yes I was being rather vague: an ISTJ WILL DO THEIR DUTY. If their Fi is developed, they will stick to their morals like glue, the captain going down with the ship. You just pissed me off? I hate your behavior in this moment? I can't let you starve to death. You're my ______. (father, mother, lover, best friend, employee, responsibility). It's not that they care so much about not hurting your feelings, but that many of them would rather DIE than violate their own morals, not entirely unlike xxFPs. Except instead of discussing it or expressing it, they just DO IT.

Do I think all ISTJs are good people? Of course not, I'm not sure what you take me for. And I like some ENTPs, it's not like I'm saying ENTPs are universally "bad."

I just know that the ISTJ will do the "correct procedure" (Si/Te) and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me, he will do his best to go down with his proverbial ethical ship.

My grandfather could be an unberable asshole, though I didn't see this much until my teens he was very sweet or just quiet for most of my childhood because he had this moral about children, but he always did right by me, as he saw fit.

I've experienced the loyalty of an ISTJ man in my adult life, albeit too briefly, and I felt like something had dropped out of the floor beneath me when he was gone from my life, I can't imagine how much more devastated I would have been if we had grown closer.

Even the ISTJ guy I've been seeing casually for a few months responds to everything with almost constant civil politeness and rationality, although I've seen his "human" side, he does get mad and irritated with other people and has let me down emotionally before, he has never once been anything but a perfect gentleman to me in his speech, even if I insult him. I'm sure he'd probably start to insult me more if he felt more comfortable with me and he had deeper feelings because then he'd start to break down, that's what happened with the first ISTJ, he seemed like he could take anything, and I was shocked the first time I actually REALLY HURT HIM, and he had an Fi shit-fit and was like "omg you whore you're meaner to me than anyone in the world" when he had up until that point pretty much let everything roll off him like water. But that kind of thing comes if they let you closer to their heart or something, but the bottom line is that an ISTJ with well-developed Fi sticks to their moral guns, whatever they happen to be.

It's just about finding an ISTJ with matching morals. Or better morals, lol.
 

Coriolis

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perhaps but theres a clear difference between morality and amorality, and i do make the effort of showing them that i respect their view by adapting myself into what they think i should be, and i see this strategy has so far always brought good results. i think si fi and fi si love feels funny, and usually makes me think "ohh thats so silly and cute, you love me, AWW! <3 =]" which might seem aa' bit derogatory reaction to their affection.
This is just deceiving both them and yourself.

then you better hope its one of the good istj's, cause theres equally much the abusive kind of istj's in this mad world who would just use you like a tool for their selfish twisted desires.
This sounds more like INTJ. ISTJ is more likely to go overboard in support of some established framework or external value set (for example, Javert in Les Miserables).

I admire someone who has that level of self-control, especially when it's self rather than other's motivated, because to me that is like some pinnacle of masculine strength. I think I may feel this way because my father figure was an ISTJ.
What about women who have these qualities? Does that detract from their femininity, or does their being female reduce your admiration for them?

I just know that the ISTJ will do the "correct procedure" (Si/Te) and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me, he will do his best to go down with his proverbial ethical ship.
Yes, ISTJs (also ISFJ's?) tend to be very process oriented. Follow the right process, and the outcome has to be right as well. In other words, the means justify the ends. When I disagree with ISTJs, it is frequently over this.
 

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What about women who have these qualities? Does that detract from their femininity, or does their being female reduce your admiration for them?

No I still admire them. I think my favorite mod currently on the forum is ISTJ. Love her calm consistency, just love it.

I admire ISTJ females, but I don't tend to have the same kind of sexual idealization of ISTJ females; I like how strong TJ females come across though, it's very inspiring. I've always been a huge Hillary Clinton fan.

Now I know right now that someone is going to tell me I'm an ENFP projecting an Si animus, I just know it.

Yes, ISTJs (also ISFJ's?) tend to be very process oriented. Follow the right process, and the outcome has to be right as well. In other words, the means justify the ends. When I disagree with ISTJs, it is frequently over this.

I have mixed feelings about it. Some times I appreciate so much that they can do this (when I can't, or have weakness in this area) and in others I'm like "GAH YOU ARE BEING SO IRRATIONAL, AND STOPPING THE BEST EFFICIENT END RESULT OR WHAT WOULD BRING ETHICAL HARMONY BECAUSE YOU ARE BLINDED BY SI!!!"

But Si is irrational, just like all of the perceiving functions. That's just the way it happens to be irrational.
 

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[MENTION=15003]Vilku[/MENTION] I am curious, who is this sole person (ISTJ) that has so tainted your view of all ISTJ's? They must have done a number on you of incalculable damage as to leave you having such negative views of ISTJ's. You almost make it sound like ISTJ's are plotting to take over the world for their own selfish desires. I would encourage you to actively meet other ISTJ's, so that they can give you a clearer and hopefully more optimistic view of ISTJ's as a whole. Also be warned, INFJ's intuition and instincts about people may be useful and accurate a good portion of the time, but it is not foolproof, what you sense in others (in particular this ISTJ) may be quite different from what s/he is actually thinking/feeling/behaving as.

several, but i have came across one good istj too, and several which i didnt get to know well enough to say.

im still trying to find a way to view world in such a way where i dont have to go over huge lengths of efforts to understand Fi morals. (its like Fi's have a like bar for every person and depending where they fall on that decides the treatment, whereas we Fe's treat everyone equally. i just dont think its fair to do amoral actions on people just cause you thought on that moment that you didnt like them.)

and yeah, im also trying to come in terms that my understanding/intuition is never final, even though it feels always so convincing.

yep, i hope id meet some more of those good istj's in my road.

I don't think you understand what I meant, but yes I was being rather vague: an ISTJ WILL DO THEIR DUTY. If their Fi is developed, they will stick to their morals like glue, the captain going down with the ship. You just pissed me off? I hate your behavior in this moment? I can't let you starve to death. You're my ______. (father, mother, lover, best friend, employee, responsibility). It's not that they care so much about not hurting your feelings, not entirely unlike xxFPs. Except instead of discussing it or expressing it, they just DO IT.

Do I think all ISTJs are good people? Of course not, I'm not sure what you take me for. And I like some ENTPs, it's not like I'm saying ENTPs are universally "bad."

I just know that the ISTJ will do the "correct procedure" (Si/Te) he will do his best to go down with his proverbial ethical ship.

My grandfather could be an unberable asshole, though I didn't see this much until my teens he was very sweet or just quiet for most of my childhood because he had this moral about children, but he always did right by me, as he saw fit.

I've experienced the loyalty of an ISTJ man in my adult life, albeit too briefly, and I felt like something had dropped out of the floor beneath me when he was gone from my life, I can't imagine how much more devastated I would have been if we had grown closer.

Even the ISTJ guy I've been seeing casually for a few months responds to everything with almost constant civil politeness and rationality, although I've seen his "human" side, he does get mad and irritated with other people and has let me down emotionally before, he has never once been anything but a perfect gentleman to me in his speech, even if I insult him. I'm sure he'd probably start to insult me more if he felt more comfortable with me and he had deeper feelings because then he'd start to break down, that's what happened with the first ISTJ, he seemed like he could take anything, and I was shocked the first time I actually REALLY HURT HIM, and he had an Fi shit-fit and was like "omg you whore you're meaner to me than anyone in the world" when he had up until that point pretty much let everything roll off him like water. But that kind of thing comes if they let you closer to their heart or something,
It's just about finding an ISTJ with matching morals. Or better morals, lol.

", but that many of them would rather DIE than violate their own morals"

you know, thats not very helpful if they just simply dont have morals, or their morals are along the line "everyone is just material, so it doesnt matter what i do to them", aka atheism gone seriously wrong.

" and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me," and if not, youre then just fine they do whatever they wish to you completely ignoring your wishes? i dont have time to befriend everyone, so i should expect other people to still treat me morally even when i lack the time to personally tend to them.

thats the whole deal why Fi morals are annoyingly evil, cause if you arent their friend by an instant, they assume the opposite.

" but the bottom line is that an ISTJ with well-developed Fi sticks to their moral guns, whatever they happen to be."

yeah its good as long as the istj has time to grow in a friendly environment so theyd develop one, but what about all the failed cases? im blind to what i think doesnt make rational sense, and immorality is something completely driven by emotion, thus im naturally blind to it until ive been hit by one.

This is just deceiving both them and yourself.


"This sounds more like INTJ. ISTJ is more likely to go overboard in support of some established framework or external value set (for example, Javert in Les Miserables)."

no, intj's are too wimpy to use other people for their desires, you wish you could but you were never made to be the one who takes action.

what im talking about desires, are things like monetary and status gains, all the superficial of kind.

bring me one intj who is able to realize their daydreams of using other people. thats right, intj's arent really capable of the evil they wish to be,or hopefully dont wish.
 

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" and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me," and if not, youre then just fine they do whatever they wish to you completely ignoring your wishes? i dont have time to befriend everyone, so i should expect other people to still treat me morally even when i lack the time to personally tend to them.
Yes, you should. And ISTJs are more likely than most to treat you exactly this way: to be fair, honest, even courteous regardless of their personal feelings for you, just because it is the right thing to do (agrees with whatever moral code they follow).

" but the bottom line is that an ISTJ with well-developed Fi sticks to their moral guns, whatever they happen to be."
Yes, they will stick to it, whether you are friend, foe, or stranger.

no, intj's are too wimpy to use other people for their desires, you wish you could but you were never made to be the one who takes action.

what im talking about desires, are things like monetary and status gains, all the superficial of kind.

bring me one intj who is able to realize their daydreams of using other people. thats right, intj's arent really capable of the evil they wish to be,or hopefully dont wish.
You seem to know INTJs even less than ISTJs. Most INTJs I know don't try to be evil, they just put the ends before the means more than most, and as a result can make assumptions about the actions and participation of others, regardless of the wishes of those people. This is because they are driven by some individual motivation (NiFi) rather than by some external standard of behavior (SiFi). In my experience of knowing many NTJs and STJs, it is usually the SJs who are telling the NTJs, "You can't do that because it goes against the rules, isn't how we do things around here, people won't like it" etc. The NTJ will usually reply, "I don't care about all that, I want results". Perhaps the INTJs I know are atypical, but we have been fairly successful at realizing our dreams. Using people is just incidental to that, and if we can remain aware and sensitive to that, we can keep it to a minimum.
 

Cellmold

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You seem to know INTJs even less than ISTJs. Most INTJs I know don't try to be evil, they just put the ends before the means more than most, and as a result can make assumptions about the actions and participation of others, regardless of the wishes of those people. This is because they are driven by some individual motivation (NiFi) rather than by some external standard of behavior (SiFi). In my experience of knowing many NTJs and STJs, it is usually the SJs who are telling the NTJs, "You can't do that because it goes against the rules, isn't how we do things around here, people won't like it" etc. The NTJ will usually reply, "I don't care about all that, I want results". Perhaps the INTJs I know are atypical, but we have been fairly successful at realizing our dreams. Using people is just incidental to that, and if we can remain aware and sensitive to that, we can keep it to a minimum.

This is an important point and when it comes to the, (suspected), INTJ's ive experienced, ive observed that the 'ends justify the means' isn't really intended with malicious intent, it's merely the product that their combination of functions tends to bring about.

However with self awareness, as you have said, they are able to understand how others might misconstrue their goals with an intent in maliciousness. Which isn't to say there aren't INTJ's with intentionally ill aims, merely that most truly don't intend to come across that way, they just aren't focused on that angle of the situation.

Hah it looks like ive just repeated your point for you, talk about lack of efficiency, (Te).
 

Thalassa

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", but that many of them would rather DIE than violate their own morals"

you know, thats not very helpful if they just simply dont have morals, or their morals are along the line "everyone is just material, so it doesnt matter what i do to them", aka atheism gone seriously wrong.

" and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me," and if not, youre then just fine they do whatever they wish to you completely ignoring your wishes? i dont have time to befriend everyone, so i should expect other people to still treat me morally even when i lack the time to personally tend to them.

thats the whole deal why Fi morals are annoyingly evil, cause if you arent their friend by an instant, they assume the opposite.

" but the bottom line is that an ISTJ with well-developed Fi sticks to their moral guns, whatever they happen to be."

yeah its good as long as the istj has time to grow in a friendly environment so theyd develop one, but what about all the failed cases? im blind to what i think doesnt make rational sense, and immorality is something completely driven by emotion, thus im naturally blind to it until ive been hit by one.

Fi is a more subjective, internal method of morality building which means that some ISTJs may have morals that you disagree with, they aren't going to necessarily respond to the Fe of a particular group, community, or whatever.

Yes, some ISTJs are crass or materialistic. They might walk around in their 300 dollar jeans or their expensive cologne, looking down their nose behind their sunglasses at you on the way out to their BMW to vaccuum it and polish it to perfection daily. They may tell your kids to get off of their fucking lawn or tennis court. They may care more about the end result in business than is tasteful to some people, but that's true of many Te types, not just ISTJs.

All ISTJs aren't the same, of course. My grandfather was an old fashioned Southern man, the kind of hard-working, hard-ass ISTJ that has "good Christian morals" but exhibits very low actual forgiveness or kindness to strangers, saving his well-guarded feelings of empathy and loyalty to his family, who he'd sacrifice everything for, feeding them, protecting them, dressing them well, taking them on vacations, etc. Sure he was kind of a jerk, and he could be really intolerant of anything or anyone he saw as deviant, but I am not quite sure I could have asked for a more devoted father-figure, who also had the decency to give me space and privacy. When I was 25 years old he would still take me clothes shopping and buy my dinner, but tell me how I'd failed in this or that way on the ride home.

Some ISTJs are really dull and unassuming, some are the bigoted old-fashioned workaholic hardass family men, some are scientists or doctors or lawyers, and some are health-conscious pretty boys with a stick up their ass.

I never said they're all the same, but I've noticed that despite interests or culture, they have a really relieving consistency that is both physical and moral, whatever their morality happens to be, I didn't say every ISTJ would have a morality you'd agree with.
 

Thalassa

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Yes, you should. And ISTJs are more likely than most to treat you exactly this way: to be fair, honest, even courteous regardless of their personal feelings for you, just because it is the right thing to do (agrees with whatever moral code they follow).


Yes, they will stick to it, whether you are friend, foe, or stranger.

Exactly.
 

Sacrophagus

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I understand that ISTJ's value typical customs and traditions like most guardians. But despite this, they still seem like a highly rational personality to me.

Or is this not true? Do ISTJs place guardian values above rational thought patterns?

Most likely.
ISTJ's loyalty can transcend their personal opinion. I highly admired this ISTJ who once followed instructions even if they were against his personal opinion. TJs can do that in general, but NTJs are likely to show more resistance if they didn't see any practical use in what they're doing or if it defeats their vision, the prism through which they think the world should be. Having an ISTJ by your side is a win, though their convictions are different.
 
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