[ISFJ] Help me understand and respect my ISFJ mate?

[heart]

I had a best friend who is ISFJ. She was incredibly stubborn and immovable on certain things. Once she was convinced of something, I don't think dynamite would move it. However, everything was always all about feelings for her. So if you can make your case using feelings as the be all and end all reasoning, perhaps that would help.

I have an ISFJ relative like this. She is extremely stubborn and the best way to get her to close her mind to anything is to simply suggest it. She's got really severe anxiety disorder issues. She is very inconsistent in her parenting, lets things go because she's too stressed to deal with them and then blow up and over-react. Now her children have behavior issues and need medications. She makes the most illogical, pure instinct emotional decisions of anyone I ever knew. I care about her but have trouble dealing with her.

 

[crandolph]

Anybody know (or have an opinion or theory) if ISFJ's on balance have a harder time with anger/frustration management?

 

[Ivy]

attachment parenting

Is attachment parenting some new parenting movement? I've never heard of it.

In some ways it's the oldest parenting movement there is. Basically, the idea is that babies come out with the expectation that they will spend their first few months (some call it the "fourth trimester") attached to their caregivers: being held, being breastfed, being near their parents even during sleep, and so on. So instead of strollers an "attachment parent" would use a sling or other carrier, keep the baby in the parents' room and maybe even in their bed, and exclusively breastfeed until solids are introduced at about 6-8 months.

I did this "by the book" with my daughter- she slept in our bed and made an easy transition to her own room when she was almost 3, she nursed for about that long, I carried her most of the time until she made the move to get down and crawl. My son was not a good co-sleeper so he went into a crib after a month or two, but he did nurse until after he was 2 (although I weaned him, whereas I had let my daughter wean herself) and I carried him.

It's a nice approach IMO, except that a lot of people who are seriously into it get kind of uppity about it and treat it as a checklist rather than a philosophy. They would have (and did) raise eyebrows at my son sleeping in a "baby jail" instead of with me, although I was being sensitive to his needs and doing what helped us all get the most peaceful sleep, which should be right on point with the philosophy.

(Probably more than you asked for...)

 

[Ivy]

I may or may not be an ISFJ but I do have some of the characteristics. I think sometimes ISFJs spend a lot of energy keeping the peace, which often means ignoring their own needs, which build up and bust the seams after a while. If you can help him vent it more regularly it may help to avoid the resentments. We started doing a "Clean Slate" thing every night, then a few times a week after the logjam was clear, now I just bring stuff up as it comes up.

Also, about the parenting styles- sometimes an ISFJ needs to see it from an "expert." Can you get some books and share the more "gentle" approach with him? Maybe if it's a "method" he'll receive it better. I can make some recommendations if you like, let me know if he prefers the scientific approach or the "family man" approach or some other, I have all kinds.

 

[crandolph]

Lovely description of AP Ivy, and spot on about the problem with so many practicioners having an uppity, even macho attitude about it (which is why I avoid the label, even though I'm like a 70% AP parent). The checklist vs philosophy thing is accurate too. A philosophy can be adapted to circumstances, like working full-time, having a babe that actually likes to sleep independently (like your 2nd) etc. A checklist, not so much, but boy does it give you permission to criticize and judge! It's also, to me, an abdication of responsibility. I've seen some hardcore AP folk check off the little boxes and then, once their kids turn 3, because these parents believe they've done everything they are supposed to do and were such superior parents, but lack any real guiding principles behind the choices they made, become truly weird disciplinarians. And then of course there are the awesome reflective AP mamas like yourself.

 

[crandolph]

Also, about the parenting styles- sometimes an ISFJ needs to see it from an "expert." Can you get some books and share the more "gentle" approach with him? Maybe if it's a "method" he'll receive it better. I can make some recommendations if you like, let me know if he prefers the scientific approach or the "family man" approach or some other, I have all kinds.

Here is where he's really not behaving like a typical ISFJ. He scoffs at all the parenting experts (except on medical stuff). In fact, my excessive reading gets on his nerves a bit. Anything about psychological development in little ones is, in his mind, BS theory and not actual science. That's his take on psychology generally. What seems to move him on occassion is if one of his friends from work (or anyone in the damn world but me, basically) were to share a current newspaper article on this stuff. Then it becomes a bit more authoritative for him. Mostly he believes parenting is something that will come naturally (very un-ISFJ). Then of course 90% of the folks he complains to about the bear's sleep habits advocate CIO just because it is still what most people do, and so it seems to him that it must therefore be correct. (This does seem ISFJ to me.)

 

[Ivy]

Here is where he's really not behaving like a typical ISFJ. He scoffs at all the parenting experts (except on medical stuff). In fact, my excessive reading gets on his nerves a bit. Anything about psychological development in little ones is, in his mind, BS theory and not actual science. That's his take on psychology generally. What seems to move him on occassion is if one of his friends from work (or anyone in the damn world but me, basically) were to share a current newspaper article on this stuff. Then it becomes a bit more authoritative for him. Mostly he believes parenting is something that will come naturally (very un-ISFJ). Then of course 90% of the folks he complains to about the bear's sleep habits advocate CIO just because it is still what most people do, and so it seems to him that it must therefore be correct. (This does seem ISFJ to me.)

Would a sciencey book be more likely to sway him, or would he just think they had an agenda? Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small is packed with data. Yeah, it has an agenda- but it's pretty well-backed with anthropological and biological evidence.

Is he asking that you let the babe CIO multiple times in a night? If so, what about all the medical responses to Ezzo's Babywise method being bad for the mother's milk supply? Would he hear any of that?

For sleep, The No-Cry Sleep Solution was a GODSEND for us with Thing 2. It was more "low-cry" than "no-cry," but I at least felt like we were reassuring him rather than leaving him alone. There was a lot of back-patting and stuff.

 

[crandolph]

Would a sciencey book be more likely to sway him, or would he just think they had an agenda? Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small is packed with data. Yeah, it has an agenda- but it's pretty well-backed with anthropological and biological evidence.

Is he asking that you let the babe CIO multiple times in a night? If so, what about all the medical responses to Ezzo's Babywise method being bad for the mother's milk supply? Would he hear any of that?

For sleep, The No-Cry Sleep Solution was a GODSEND for us with Thing 2. It was more "low-cry" than "no-cry," but I at least felt like we were reassuring him rather than leaving him alone. There was a lot of back-patting and stuff.

I think throwing more material at him at this point would just be badgering. He gets it, he just doesn't necessarily buy it. I really do believe there won't be permanent damage if we went to a modified CIO but I also don't think it will work with bear, given his own temperament. Even the Pantley put-down/pick-up stuff just got him wound up and hysterical and made things more trying on everybody. For now, on this one point, we are co-sleeping (and there's dramatically less crying with the boob right there) and I am periodically checking in with my husband and asking if our night-time game plan is still working for him. This is not a complete solution, because I fear that rather than tell me when it's becoming too much and saying we need to move to Plan B, even with my checking in, he'll instead bottle up and then explode at some point.

It's going to be a longer-term issue for us in terms of negotiating these decisions, well beyond sleep training. (How should we discipline for X behavior? Should he go to a private preschool? What's a reasonable curfew? etc.) So I keep re-reading everyone's feedback, particularly Jennifer's and FineLine's, to try to figure out how best to modify my more bothersome behaviors and to get where my husband is coming from. And then my posts periodically devolve into rants or complaints, before I can take a step back again, but better online than at home I think.

 

[INTJMom]

In some ways it's the oldest parenting movement there is. Basically, the idea is that babies come out with the expectation that they will spend their first few months (some call it the "fourth trimester") attached to their caregivers: being held, being breastfed, being near their parents even during sleep, and so on. So instead of strollers an "attachment parent" would use a sling or other carrier, keep the baby in the parents' room and maybe even in their bed, and exclusively breastfeed until solids are introduced at about 6-8 months.

I did this "by the book" with my daughter- she slept in our bed and made an easy transition to her own room when she was almost 3, she nursed for about that long, I carried her most of the time until she made the move to get down and crawl. My son was not a good co-sleeper so he went into a crib after a month or two, but he did nurse until after he was 2 (although I weaned him, whereas I had let my daughter wean herself) and I carried him.

It's a nice approach IMO, except that a lot of people who are seriously into it get kind of uppity about it and treat it as a checklist rather than a philosophy. They would have (and did) raise eyebrows at my son sleeping in a "baby jail" instead of with me, although I was being sensitive to his needs and doing what helped us all get the most peaceful sleep, which should be right on point with the philosophy.

(Probably more than you asked for...)

Ah. Thank you. I was taught that also. I didn't know it had a name.

When I was in my 30's, I found out that I spent the first 6 months of my life in a crib in a room with other babies in other cribs. Apparently, that's how they were doing it in the late 50's.

 

[INTJMom]

Anybody know (or have an opinion or theory) if ISFJ's on balance have a harder time with anger/frustration management?

I had a close ISFJ gal friend who called everything "hurt". She did not allow herself to feel anger. Even if she was angry, she identified it to me as hurt. She stuffed all her feelings, could not forgive and forget and weighed almost 400 lbs. NOT a healthy ISFJ.

I knew a wonderful man who was an ISFJ. He was very disciplined by an act of his will to forgive people when he was hurt or offended.

 

[Eve]

attachment parenting

Is attachment parenting some new parenting movement? I've never heard of it.

Ivy already answered that one.

In my case, that was what I wanted to do since day one (nurse, co-sleep, and respond to the child's needs), it felt natural. I started to read about it a couple of months after my son was born. I just found a label to put on what I was trying to do, in order to keep in-laws off my back. I ignored the part that I thought didn't suit me, like carrying the baby on a sling. I carried my son a lot, because I wanted to, the sling was too much for me.

I tend to think moms have to find a style that suits them, the child will most likely adapt. If you're satisfied with what you're doing, then you'll be in good spirits and you'll definitely need that in that first year (or second, third... ).

 

[RDF]

Anybody know (or have an opinion or theory) if ISFJ's on balance have a harder time with anger/frustration management?

From what you said in subsequent messages, it does sound like he's stressing out a bit too much and running hot and cold. It's probably just immaturity coupled with stress from being a parent for the first time. And/or he's bringing stress home from work.

The two ISFJs that I described in my earlier posts are pretty even-keeled. But they're older (middle-aged like me) and have fairly high-ranking positions at work (which socializes them a bit). Also, I think their families are more oriented toward traditional roles and the wives took on most of the child-rearing responsibilities.

If your husband isn't handling his anger well, then maybe he needs to talk to someone and learn to anticipate his stress and deal with it better. Sometimes guys need to be told that it's okay (not a personal failure) to relax and go out bowling with the boys one or two nights a week. They don't have to do it all or have all the answers.

One other possible consideration: INFJs (your type) are well-known for having some anger issues. So there may be a feedback thing going between you two.

Here are a couple links on the negative personality traits of both personality types, from the PersonalityPage.com website.

For ISFJs:

ISFJ Personal Growth

For INFJs:

INFJ Personal Growth

PersonalityPage.com takes the approach of looking at how the Dominant and Auxiliary functions interact, both in healthy and unhealthy ways. If you want more, you could try out the following post. It tries to boil down how the PersonalityPage.com system works. The pertinent section for you and your husband would be "Dominant Ni/Si". (If it's too confusing, you can skip it. I'm just suggesting it as a FYI, FWIW piece of additional info.)

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ality-matrices/2573-si-vs-ni-4.html#post72790

 

[crandolph]

All this weaving and mapping of data and ideas takes a lot of energy and patience, though, and new information still coming in through the front door up by the courtroom can upset the work. So the cops/detectives hijack the weak, undermanned courtroom at the front of the building and get it to guard the doors by ruling arbitrarily against any new F input from the outside world if it's a T courtroom, or against any new T input if it's an F courtroom. Thus, the cops and detectives get increasingly invested in a built-up model or mapping on the inside, while outside parties are turned away by a strict, rigid judge at the front door who refuses to hear their evidence and simply rules against them because they don't fit the model inside.

Yikes. And, yeah, probably true.

 

[quietgirl]

I may or may not be an ISFJ but I do have some of the characteristics. I think sometimes ISFJs spend a lot of energy keeping the peace, which often means ignoring their own needs, which build up and bust the seams after a while. If you can help him vent it more regularly it may help to avoid the resentments. We started doing a "Clean Slate" thing every night, then a few times a week after the logjam was clear, now I just bring stuff up as it comes up.

.

I agree with this. My boyfriend tends to over compromise and essentially do exactly what you want until he bursts. Then you'll see the classic ISFJ stubbornness & you will get nothing that you want for a good couple days. We've been getting around it by making compromises that we can both agree on instead of me just getting my way or what i want. Our first and only really major fight thus far was a result of this sort of thing.

 

[quietgirl]

Anybody know (or have an opinion or theory) if ISFJ's on balance have a harder time with anger/frustration management?

I don't know so much that they have a harder time with it, but from an INFJ point of view - maybe. See, we INFJ's tend to want to resolve things quickly - probably with Ni anticipating all sorts of imaginary scenarios going on. Plus, one of the key characteristics of our type is diplomacy. We have a pretty direct interaction style & we have the tendency to want to fix what's wrong & then grow from it basically. My ISFJ boyfriend doesn't operate exactly in this way.

I find my boyfriend has more of a tendency to hold things inside for the sake of avoiding conflict & ultimately sacrificing his needs a bit for my needs & the needs of others. I do this too, but he doesn't seem to have the anxiety to fix it as much as I do (nor does he make an immediate move to fix it like I do). He does it with his family, too. They'll ask everything of him and he'll just keep doing it regardless of how he feels about it. After this all builds up inside, he'll just burst like I described in my last post & becomes absolutely impossible. Obviously, this seems like an anger/frustration problem, but if you recognize what led up to it, it's easier to see that it's more of a difference in the way we handle things.

 

[crandolph]

I find my boyfriend has more of a tendency to hold things inside for the sake of avoiding conflict & ultimately sacrificing his needs a bit for my needs & the needs of others. I do this too, but he doesn't seem to have the anxiety to fix it as much as I do (nor does he make an immediate move to fix it like I do). He does it with his family, too. They'll ask everything of him and he'll just keep doing it regardless of how he feels about it. After this all builds up inside, he'll just burst like I described in my last post & becomes absolutely impossible. Obviously, this seems like an anger/frustration problem, but if you recognize what led up to it, it's easier to see that it's more of a difference in the way we handle things.

The bottling up and blowing, I get that pattern and that optimally one can figure out ways to head it off. But, pitching a fit because a little old lady takes too long to cross the street and you miss the turn you were trying to make? (One of many many examples.) This has just got to be misplaced...something. Maybe it is the pressure of all the other bottled up stuff leaking out before the big blow? In his head it is really all about the little old lady. I witness it and think, surely something else is going on. (Ok, usually I think -- surely it is really that you are mad at me for x, y, z but you don't come out and get mad at me so instead you are cursing a blue streak about a little old lady. I need to realize it may not be all about me. But it probably ain't really about the little old lady either, right?)

 

[INTJMom]

The bottling up and blowing, I get that pattern and that optimally one can figure out ways to head it off. But, pitching a fit because a little old lady takes too long to cross the street and you miss the turn you were trying to make? (One of many many examples.) This has just got to be misplaced...something. Maybe it is the pressure of all the other bottled up stuff leaking out before the big blow? In his head it is really all about the little old lady. I witness it and think, surely something else is going on. (Ok, usually I think -- surely it is really that you are mad at me for x, y, z but you don't come out and get mad at me so instead you are cursing a blue streak about a little old lady. I need to realize it may not be all about me. But it probably ain't really about the little old lady either, right?)

I agree that there must be something deeper because I was under the impression that ISFJs are among the most patient people out there.

Maybe stressed out and showing the Shadow? - ENTP?

"Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the ISFJ's shadow may appear - a negative form of ENTP.
Example characteristics are:

* being very intolerant of others who do not act competently
* suggesting impractical ideas
* being critical of others, and finding fault with almost everything
* having a gloomy view of the future
* being argumentative"
ISFJ Personality Types



The lady crossing the street is being incompetent and inefficient because she's holding up traffic.

 

[RDF]

The lady crossing the street is being incompetent and inefficient because she's holding up traffic.

Yep.

When a person gets overly irritated at routine minor delays or random petty screw-ups, that's usually a sign that he is stressed and overburdened. He feels like he has a million things to do, he needs everything to run smoothly if he is going to be productive and accomplish everything, and any little minor delay can assume a huge importance for him--as though the world is conspiring to keep him from accomplishing what needs to be done.

Possible ways to address the problem: Lighten the workload; plan ahead better so as to be more efficient; schedule more time for tasks like driving, so as to incorporate some margin for inevitable delays and holdups.

My shadow is a negative form of ESTJ, which can make me similarly over-critical and demanding. I know what it's like to cuss a blue streak at a slow driver or a pedestrian gumming up an intersection and putting me behind schedule. So I've learned that when little things start getting on my nerves, that's usually a good indicator that I'm getting stressed out and that I need to take a break, back off, lighten the load, or unwind a bit. Stop and smell the roses, and all that.

 

[quietgirl]

The bottling up and blowing, I get that pattern and that optimally one can figure out ways to head it off. But, pitching a fit because a little old lady takes too long to cross the street and you miss the turn you were trying to make? (One of many many examples.) This has just got to be misplaced...something. Maybe it is the pressure of all the other bottled up stuff leaking out before the big blow? In his head it is really all about the little old lady. I witness it and think, surely something else is going on. (Ok, usually I think -- surely it is really that you are mad at me for x, y, z but you don't come out and get mad at me so instead you are cursing a blue streak about a little old lady. I need to realize it may not be all about me. But it probably ain't really about the little old lady either, right?)

I notice that when my boyfriend's stressed, he'll start speaking negatively of anything and everything. He's not so bad with it & I've learned to not take it personally because it's fairly infrequent, but he'll kinda get in this impossible mood where nothing anyone does is right. It is similar to that ENTP shadow that INTJMom listed. For example, he hurt his foot close to a marathon & he acted like this for a good couple days - really until he could start running again. I really had to put it in perspective and make it not about me - which I do have the tendency to do if I'm not careful. However, he only acts like this under a LOT of stress or if something major is bothering him. Normally, he's as patient as can be & not much bothers him at all. I'm the one who's usually yelling obscenities while driving...

I also noticed that he'll get more cranky if he can't get done the things he normally does every day. So I just let him do them, despite me not really understanding that a routine is set in stone, and all is well in our world. haha.

Is there something really big that's stressing your partner? Like something that is compromising anything that he feels strongly about? My boyfriend runs marathons and when he couldn't run for a couple days, it was compromising something that was not only his routine, but also something he feels very strongly about & identifies with... plus it had the danger of ruining a goal for him. This is something that an INFJ should be able to relate to - you know how you feel when a goal you are working towards is in jeopardy of falling apart! When you look at it that way, it's understandable that his stress shadow would come out a bit. I ended up solving that problem between us by simply telling him that I understood how difficult the situation has become for him & I could understand why he was so stressed out. He told me that he appreciated that I noticed (ISFJ's never feel like they're noticed) and he stopped acting as stressed out towards me.

 

[crandolph]

Is there something really big that's stressing your partner?

Well, we have a 10 month old and no one is gettting any sleep, so yeah.

There has been recent improvement, perhaps because I'm trying to enlist some of the recommended strategies here....