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[ESTJ] How to get along with ESTJ's

miss fortune

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:huh: strange... my best friend is a very ESTJy ESTJ and we get along quite well... we actually ask each others advice on things that are the other's strengths all of the time! :holy:

She never objected to me trying anything new as long as it seemed sensible, and if it didn't she just watched how it turned out for me :dry: I never objected to her being anal retentive because it generally benefited me! :cheese:

Wonder if cooperation is easier for girls than guys though in a way? :thinking:
 

IZthe411

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Funny you say this. The ESTP that I work with absolutely hates the ESTJ.

The ESTP makes up new ways to do things. He does it whatever way he feels like doing it on that day. And the fact that he doesn't do it the same way every day drives the ESTJ nuts. The ESTJ is always trying to keep tabs on the ESTP, but he can't keep logical tabs because the ESTP is always "off schedule". The ESTJ expects everyone to do A, then B, then C, then D, then E, then go home.

The ESTP does A, then E, then C, then D, then B, then goes home. ESTJ system malfunction. He always accuses the ESTP of "marching to the beat of his own drum". The ESTP says the same thing I do: I'm going to do it the way that makes sense to me, not the way that makes sense to him. And I'll still get the job done equally as well. Just look at my results.

The difference that I notice between the ESTP and myself is that I come up with my "best methods" because those are the methods that I truly believe are the most efficient way of doing my job. There's really no other reason behind my method. I analyze things and come up with what I feel is the absolute very best way do to things - for me. If someone else wants to use a different method (as long as their results are good), then go for it. I won't knock you for it. But, I believe my way is the best - because I've thought about it and analyzed it in very great detail. I've thought about every other possible way to do it (even if there's 100 different ways), and I've determined this is the best way.

The ESTP, on the other hand, seems to include an element of "having fun" into his strategy. If he thinks it will be more fun/enjoyable to do things different today than he did yesterday, then he will. He has to have fun in what he's doing. But, somehow he does still get the job done very well (and the ESTJ disagrees).

Wow that has to suck.

That's why I sometimes have a problem with xSTJ stereotypes. I willl admit that I can be tight with things that are critical to project completion- but I respect someone's way of doing things unless it's not meeting some objective. If anything I can learn to do something better.

Sometimes people give me a reason to have to put some reins on them, tho. Incompetence cannot be left to roam free.
 

INTPness

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:huh: strange... my best friend is a very ESTJy ESTJ and we get along quite well... we actually ask each others advice on things that are the other's strengths all of the time! :holy:

She never objected to me trying anything new as long as it seemed sensible, and if it didn't she just watched how it turned out for me :dry: I never objected to her being anal retentive because it generally benefited me! :cheese:

Wonder if cooperation is easier for girls than guys though in a way? :thinking:

I'd say it's more because you and her are friends. The situation I'm describing is a boss/employee situation. The dynamics are quite a bit different. I've found ESTJ's (the ones in my family) to be very cordial and fairly easy going in their friendships. When they're "at work" or in one of their "let's get stuff done today" modes, it's quite different.
 

Fecal McAngry

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I suppose this ties into the post on ESTJ Courtney Love I made earlier...but in general, one of the reasons I find ESTJs fairly easy to deal with, aside from the energy expenditure involved, is that I seem to be able to discern fairly easily when they are "serious" from when they are "bullshiting."

ESTJs, esp. bright ESTJ women, do a great deal of both, and switch back and forth all the time without warning. Some types seem to find this confusing...
 

INTPness

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I suppose this ties into the post on ESTJ Courtney Love I made earlier...but in general, one of the reasons I find ESTJs fairly easy to deal with, aside from the energy expenditure involved, is that I seem to be able to discern fairly easily when they are "serious" from when they are "bullshiting."

ESTJs, esp. bright ESTJ women, do a great deal of both, and switch back and forth all the time without warning. Some types seem to find this confusing...

Yeah, I find it confusing. I also can discern the difference between their "seriousness" and their BS (sometimes), but it still confuses me because it makes me feel like they aren't authentic and genuine. Like I start to wonder how much I can really trust them if they can just switch back and forth so easily. I watch them BS people and yeah, I guess it's a fairly effective trait to have in some situations, but I've listened to certain ESTJ's just BS'ing away and I think to myself, "You are so full of crap and you really think that nobody can see it!" And what really irks me is when the BS'ing session is over and 5 minutes later they are talking about how they always "do things the right way" - like they really think that they are an extremely ethical person. You just BS'd someone out of a bunch of money, then you laughed about it, then you claimed that you're a very ethical person. All of those things cannot be true. That's why I find it confusing.

And BTW, I'm not just trying to roast on ESTJ's. Like I said, I have 3 in my family whom I love very much. It's just that INTP's are very good at "seeing" these things - reading between the lines, if you will. We can see it from a mile away.
 

EJCC

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ESTJs, esp. bright ESTJ women, do a great deal of both, and switch back and forth all the time without warning. Some types seem to find this confusing...
Yeah, I find it confusing. I also can discern the difference between their "seriousness" and their BS (sometimes), but it still confuses me because it makes me feel like they aren't authentic and genuine. Like I start to wonder how much I can really trust them if they can just switch back and forth so easily. I watch them BS people and yeah, I guess it's a fairly effective trait to have in some situations, but I've listened to certain ESTJ's just BS'ing away and I think to myself, "You are so full of crap and you really think that nobody can see it!" And what really irks me is when the BS'ing session is over and 5 minutes later they are talking about how they always "do things the right way" - like they really think that they are an extremely ethical person. You just BS'd someone out of a bunch of money, then you laughed about it, then you claimed that you're a very ethical person. All of those things cannot be true. That's why I find it confusing.
If this is what ESTJs act like, then I'm not one. I can't BS to save my life*. I am honest to the point of being blunt, honesty is the trait I care most about in a person, and therefore, when people are habitually dishonest, I automatically dislike them. I honestly have no idea why all of your ESTJ examples are like this when I am the polar opposite.

And BTW, I'm not just trying to roast on ESTJ's.
I understand - though at this point, I think we're past the problem solving stage and into the cathartic venting stage. Is there any other way we can help you with this ESTJ stuff? Do you have any more questions?

*Literally. If I was about to die, but could save myself by BSing, the idea that I was even ALLOWED to BS wouldn't cross my mind. I would die ignorant of the possibility.
 

Fecal McAngry

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If this is what ESTJs act like, then I'm not one. I can't BS to save my life*. I am honest to the point of being blunt, honesty is the trait I care most about in a person, and therefore, when people are habitually dishonest, I automatically dislike them.

I'm NOT talking about dishonesty. I'm talking about ESTJ HUMOR, which is often very macho and over-the-top...
 

EJCC

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I'm NOT talking about dishonesty. I'm talking about ESTJ HUMOR, which is often very macho and over-the-top...
Sorry about that... I guess the fact that what INTPness mentioned right after that was dishonesty kind of threw me off of what you were intending.

:doh: Yeah, I think you're right about that. A lot of people don't get my sense of humor, especially when they're my age or younger. But mid-twenties to early thirties people do, for whatever reason.
 

IZthe411

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I agree with this- I'd say it goes for ISTJs as well:

I suppose this ties into the post on ESTJ Courtney Love I made earlier...but in general, one of the reasons I find ESTJs fairly easy to deal with, aside from the energy expenditure involved, is that I seem to be able to discern fairly easily when they are "serious" from when they are "bullshiting."

ESTJs, esp. bright ESTJ women, do a great deal of both, and switch back and forth all the time without warning. Some types seem to find this confusing...


I'm like that. I'm glad you guys are explaining it. Sometimes I feel bad about it, and I know it frustrates the staff, but I can't help it. When it's time to work, it's time to work.
 

INTPness

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I understand - though at this point, I think we're past the problem solving stage and into the cathartic venting stage. Is there any other way we can help you with this ESTJ stuff? Do you have any more questions?

LOL. No more questions really. You guys did a great job of helping me to see where he is coming from - so, again, thanks! The other posts I've made have mostly been "in response" to what other people have posted.


If this is what ESTJs act like, then I'm not one. I can't BS to save my life*. I am honest to the point of being blunt, honesty is the trait I care most about in a person, and therefore, when people are habitually dishonest, I automatically dislike them. I honestly have no idea why all of your ESTJ examples are like this when I am the polar opposite.

I probably used a bad example of "cheating someone out of money". Some examples of things I've seen (and these are actual examples):

-Paying people "under the table" in order to save yourself money, then saying things like "these big companies that are all filthy rich only get that way by cheating and looking for loopholes! Bastards!"
-"Playing nice" with someone that you hate because you need them to approve your paperwork/job. Then as soon as they approve it, you hate them and start talking about them again
-Asking someone to do something with a smile that you know they don't want to do. If they say "no", you talk smack about them. If they say yes, then you say something like "suckkkkkkkerrrr!!!" LOL.

I'm not claiming superior morality here. I've done my share of things like this for sure. So, it's not about venting. It's just interesting conversation and trying to understand the "methods of ESTJ madness". We all have ways of trying to "get our way" and convince people of something that we really want, etc, etc.

But, like I said, in terms of the OP, you guys have answered a lot of the questions I had. The thread kind of morphed into a "let's just discuss ESTJ's and the way they think" and that's probably my own fault. :cheese:
 

INTPness

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Keep in mind too that INTP's love to "understand" how things/people work. We learn by exploring, asking questions, and sometimes even provoking - in order to get answers. Each time another question is answered, we understand that much better.

The only reason I've stuck with this thread and continue to keep "exploring" is because I find your answers and feedback valuable. I find it valuable because of the fact that I work for an ESTJ and have family members that are ESTJ.

So, yeah, please forgive me if I was over-the-top or out of bounds with my rant. It's all in an attempt to gain a better understanding. I promise.
 

EJCC

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Keep in mind too that INTP's love to "understand" how things/people work. We learn by exploring, asking questions, and sometimes even provoking - in order to get answers. Each time another question is answered, we understand that much better.

The only reason I've stuck with this thread and continue to keep "exploring" is because I find your answers and feedback valuable. I find it valuable because of the fact that I work for an ESTJ and have family members that are ESTJ.

So, yeah, please forgive me if I was over-the-top or out of bounds with my rant. It's all in an attempt to gain a better understanding. I promise.
Oh, it's totally fine. I understand, and I'm glad we all could help. :) The only reason why I made that comment before is that, in typical ESTJ fashion, I had the thought "Why keep talking about it instead of going out and solving the problem?" :laugh: But it makes perfect sense, since it's all in pursuit of further knowledge.

I especially understand because my dad (who I have a fairly close relationship with, and yet don't understand even remotely at times) is an INTP.

You know - (cue shameless promotion) - an excellent place to continue asking ESTJ questions would be the "Ask an ESTJ" thread! I know you've asked questions there before, but nonetheless. :D
 

ScentlessApprentice

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I have somewhat of a friend who is an ESTJ. We we're really good friends in our younger years, but now he has changed. He can be very bossy and always wants to take control, but at the same time he tries to be deep and caring towards others. He is also very transparent and changes his words to fit what everyone wants to hear.

He is also a 4w3, so I'm not sure if that explains the transparent personality and the caring for others, but it's definitely confusing.
 

luminous beam

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i would say "do what you do" at work, don't give the boss any reason to criticize your work or the results that you get. if they think their way is better, even if you find your way to work best, unless you are going to clearly state and explain your process to them in a way that they will understand, you should go with 'their way' and prove them wrong when it fails or gets lame results lol ask yourself these questions: is my approach more time and cost efficient? is my approach more practical? does my approach get us better results? if the answer is "yes" to all of the above, i don't see how a reasonable boss would reject the preposition. if the answer is "no" i'm not sure that it'll make the cut.

also, i would say humor them when they want to chat and are being friendly. even if i you could care less about the small talk they have to offer, make an effort to take the time to participate...that's the 'professional' office etiquette thing to do. if you try to approach them only when you're free and in the mood to talk, that probably won't fly as you've experienced already. usually detail oriented bosses keep themselves very busy, so if you don't take advantage of the free time they're offering you, you may not be able to get through when you seek them out. just imo.
 

Stanton Moore

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I work with many ESTJ and ESTP males. Some women too.

They almost all are very easy to read, I think because they are not interested in 'sub text' at all. What you see is what you get. It's really that simple. Personally, I appreciate it.
 

FDG

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IMO nothing will create complete harmony, but if you can get into a situation where the contact is limited between you and them then its bearable

Yeah. That's the only way I have found to get "along" with an ESTJ. Probably the thing is that we're both base Te types with a different creative function: we both have rather clear ideas on how to get a given job done, yet these ideas can be rather different. If there's extensive contact between us, most of the time the ESTJ will try to find a way to get me fired. I perfectly understand their rationale: I am an obstacle that needs to be removed, since usually you can't implement both Te-Ni and Te-Si methods.
 

Tamske

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I get along nicely with the only ESTJ I know in real life. I'm even married to him.
I'm betting your boss feels a bit awkward about that behavior too (or doesn't realise he's doing it, which is very much possible - in that case, have a polite and very matter-of-fact chat with him). The ESTJ's main way of communicating with the outside world is Te - "this needs to be done" - larded with Si - "and it must be done this way". Why losing time on commenting on things that go well, if with the same effort you can improve things? "People" fall under the "things" category.
Probably your ESTJ boss realises (or has been told) this approach is sometimes counterproductive, due to (to him very alien) Fe effects such as "if you only talk about what's needed to be done and about what's wrong, people will be put off".
So he's actually trying. He's doing the best he can to be friendly and to chit-chat and expects (well, that's how he's been told) that people like it. It can also be that you're seeing his third function trying to help the poor little Fe - and the third one is Ne, the mad associator.
And sometimes he just fails and falls down on his normal, blunt way of dealing with the world. If he realises he's switching between these two modes, probably he has got some difficulties with that. Mood swings? That's the last thing an ESTJ wants.

There has been a conversation lately in the "Ask an ESTJ" thread which could be helpful: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/sj-guardhouse/17823-ask-estj-120.html
 

wildcat

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Thanks again to all who posted. It's been very insightful and your advice does ring true of the ESTJ's in my family. A few things:

1) Stuff definitely is rolling down hill. His bosses are all over him. And we try to keep that in mind.

2) IzThe411 hit the nail on the head about his nitpicking about things "that don't really have a huge impact on the final results." It's little stuff. That's what's maddening to me. INTP's are really good at seeing how everything is working together - we see how it all comes together. While he is spending 10 minutes arguing with someone about "how long their method takes", I'm just listening to it all and thinking to myself, "Are you forgetting that you're wasting 10 minutes RIGHT NOW of your own time and of that person's time - that's actually 20 minutes. And what's even more maddening is that sometimes he'll be arguing with one of the most productive workers that he has - the person who gets stuff done the fastest. It's like he's so focused on trying to tell people that they're wrong, that he's getting in his own way - stepping on his own feet. He ends up being the one who is wasting everyone's time. The person is already EXTREMELY fast and good - why change a good thing?

3) As for his questions meaning "State your case. Show me I'm wrong." This is what drives an INTP nuts. Because we've already analyzed (probably 10 times more than he has) what is the ABSOLUTE most efficient way to do it. We're INTP's - that's what we do. I know that he doesn't know that, but it's like he's challenging me on things like "why I'm using the wrong brand of tissue" (I'm exaggerating), when I've already got it worked out - my bottom line results are good.

If I have a productive worker who gets things done quickly and efficiently, I'm leaving that person alone and letting them "do what they do". It's like if you peek into your kid's bedroom and he's cleaning his bedroom all by himself. He's putting things in their right place, being very productive. You're not going to interrupt him. Let him keep doing it - and then when he's all done, maybe you tell him "good job" or you reward him in some way. You wouldn't say, "You put that toy in the left side of the toy box. I want it on the right side from now on."

Just the way I see it. But, thanks again for the ESTJ insight. :cheese:

I was working in a farm in Germany. My foreman was Gunther, an ESTJ.
He did not like the way I did things.
I used to have the tool in my left hand.

The first day in the field, Gunther kindly removed the tool from my left hand.
He said: Nix so!
Gunther placed the tool in my right hand and said: So!

I am left handed. Very much so, I am afraid. However, I did not object to Gunther.
From that moment on, I let my right hand direct my movements.
It took me twice as long to do the job.
Gunther cut my wages 50 per cent. A logical outcome of the issue.
I did not complain. I was happy in my work.

A professor of mine was an ESTJ.
His way to tackle any problem was directly contrary to mine.
He was intelligent, and never wrong. I admired his grasp of things very much.
I understood the way he did things. I could not actively perform the way he did, though.

It is easy to change a hand.
It is difficult to change your entire way of thinking.

The INTP way to tackle problems is not better, or worse.
It is only different.
 
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