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[SJ] Non Traditional SJs!

sofmarhof

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327
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Well if no actual SJ's want to contribute, here's what I said about my SJ friend:

I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.

And here's some elaboration:

She's very pro-responsible-drug-use, and wants everything to be legalized, and thinks driving while high is a terrible thing to do, because it's detrimental to "the cause."

She's got a book shelf full of Voltaire, Camus, Nietzsche, and also contemporary guys like Chuck Palahniuk. So, obviously, not averse to theoretical things. The thing is, I never see her reading them. I'm sure she's read them many times so I don't hold it against her, but it must be sentimentality that makes her keep those books around, since she's not doing it for ease of reference. I never see her buy new books, either. Not a voracious seeker of new ideas. She has Voltaire as her computer desktop and a framed picture of him on the wall. She's also obsessed with the Joker from Batman, "because he's an existential absurdist."

She likes things that would offend your grandmother, like It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and the aforementioned Chuck Palahniuk, but Cannibal Holocaust was too much (she's been a vegetarian since age 7 or something).

She's in film school, but only really likes writing movies and hates being in charge of any group production project. When another friend had big project, this girl wanted to be in charge of keeping everyone fed and keeping the house they were all staying in clean; she didn't want any other responsibilities. She really doesn't like having to come up with an idea when there are any constraints, such as having to shoot outdoors or having to do a chase scene.

She is the most responsible person out of our friend group, but constantly protests that she's not a responsible person (except toward her cats). She is very vocal about never wanting children, but she acts like a mother to all of our immature guy friends. She does all the cleaning. She takes charge of the bills. Despite her professed love of alcohol she never gets drunk at parties because she's too busy making sure nobody dies or wrecks the apartment, even when the party's at somebody else's place.

So everybody else! Describe your favorite non-traditional SJs! Because guess what—they exist!
 

proximo

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Yeah... actually I don't think I've known an SJ that thought of themselves as non-traditional, who didn't in fact just follow traditional routes of non-conformism, if you know what I mean?

That is, they might've rejected the 9 to 5, the white picket fences and all that, but they simply exchanged it for some other stereotype... for example one I know who decided to homeschool her kids and only THEN did she suddenly take up an abiding interest in knitting, veganism, protest marches, Eastern religions, eco-living, organic food growing, staying in communes, etc etc... "because round these parts, that's what most of the homeschoolers are into", and she "wanted to fit in" (her words). Before she had a terrible experience with the school system here, she had all her kids in school with spotless uniforms, took them in every day in her SUV, and totally bought into the whole deal, went to the parent governors' meetings in her pearls and twinset like all the other respectable, middle class mums.

Another guy I know, an SJ who likes to think of himself as non-traditional, decided in university that he'd define himself in opposition to "mainstream culture", and to this day sticks dogmatically to the idea that ANYONE who wears a suit and tie is a sell-out - he has nothing to say to them or to learn from them, that no good music has been made since Woodstock (except Led Zeppelin), that growing his hair long is "sticking it to the man", and he reads prolifically... on all the subjects that his social group at university decided were cool, back in like 1975. He doesn't just have a mental age of 19 or so, but he's actually stuck to the particular historic 19-year-old's mentality that he adopted to fit in with mainstream university culture. He often waxes nostalgic for "those days", and boasts how "that's how it was in the uni's back then, everyone was cool..." IOW his "rebellion" was simply mainstream for the environment he was in at the time, and he's stuck to it because it became routine to him and he doesn't like to change.

So... well I don't discount that there are SJ's who are genuinely adventurous, carving out their own path, rather than just sticking to established rules about whatever position in society they decide to adopt (be it mainstream or otherwise), I have to say I'm yet to meet one...
 

sofmarhof

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327
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INTP
Ack. Authenticity, nonconformity, pretentiousness, none of those labels mean anything anymore. "Typical hippie, what a conformist!" It's like when somebody says, "X is pretentious," and then I say "People who accuse people of being pretentious are themselves pretentious," and then somebody points out that my statement is pretentious as well... like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel... The very ISTJ friend I have about complains about the pretentiousness of others, and is embarassed at her 14-yeal-old self for going to protests and trying to be a punk

The stereotype that SJs are all ultra-traditonal, white-picket-fence-having churchgoers is so pervasive on this forum that even if we just show a few SJs who are "typical hippies" it would still be a leap forward.
 

Moiety

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Ack. Authenticity, nonconformity, pretentiousness, none of those labels mean anything anymore. "Typical hippie, what a conformist!" It's like when somebody says, "X is pretentious," and then I say "People who accuse people of being pretentious are themselves pretentious," and then somebody points out that my statement is pretentious as well... like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel... The very ISTJ friend I have about complains about the pretentiousness of others, and is embarassed at her 14-yeal-old self for going to protests and trying to be a punk

The stereotype that SJs are all ultra-traditonal, white-picket-fence-having churchgoers is so pervasive on this forum that even if we just show a few SJs who are "typical hippies" it would still be a leap forward.

Either way, they're dumb.
 

raz

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Do people seem to forget that the word traditional is subjective and that the act of adhering to a tradition does not necessarily require you to adhere to certain things that most people would see as a tradition?

I break traditions all the time. I dissect the crap out of religions and analyze why people do things over and over again. The goal of my life is EFFECTIVENESS AND SUSTAINABILITY. I work at a department store, but my work ethic is MUCH different from the feelers that I work with. Doesn't that break tradition? There are very concrete and laid out reasons for why a sales associate exists. My duties are outlined, and I see absolutely no reason to allow a personal confrontation with a customer affect how I perform.

I break tradition everyday in that respect. I'm happy, friendly, relaxed, comfortable yet not emotional with customers because it interferes with my work ethic.
 

IZthe411

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I don't want to write a list of things that prove I'm not traditional....but I can't say that I am. I've thought about it. I think tradition is subjective, like raz.

I'm definitely not a person who does things because 'it's what's done'. I HATE that. I do things because there's a good reason to do it. It has to make some kind of sense to me and the end result that I'm trying to attain.

It's a combination of inaccurate printed SJ descriptions and people looking at their parents, teachers and Bosses that give SJs these loser-like descriptions.
 

haag261390

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Dec 21, 2009
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I'm not traditional in a sense that I don't see the point in keeping up with what's considered traditional when you can be your own than having to follow certain roles and what you have to do. Certain gender roles are applied, it should be equal between males and females in an effort to strive to become better and do what needs to be done rather than fuss about which roles gets who and who does who. Anyway, my opinion's put in this and there's no reason for being traditional.
 

swordpath

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I'm pretty non-traditional I'd say, but at the same time pretty blatantly SJ a lot of the time (although not as much these days as I used to be). My S/N and J/P divide is pretty balanced.

Tradition for the sake of "tradition" usually seems silly to me.
 

Himself

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Well if no actual SJ's want to contribute, here's what I said about my SJ friend: <snip>

An SJ who reads Camus and Nietzsche, wants to legalize responsible drug use, and still has her head firmly on her shoulders in the stereotypical SJ fashion?

Where do I sign up?
 

simulatedworld

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It's kind of a myth that SJs are traditional by nature. They just prefer to take in the same type of information repeatedly and relate it to an internal map of what they've experienced before (Si), which doesn't necessarily result in traditionalism anywhere near as often as people think it does.
 

Chloe

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May 1, 2009
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I noticed that at least half SJs aren't traditional, thank god ;), my mom is ISTJ, sister and a friend - and they all are very non traditional... but still far from how i am non traditional...
 

Andy

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I'm definitely not a person who does things because 'it's what's done'. I HATE that. I do things because there's a good reason to do it. It has to make some kind of sense to me and the end result that I'm trying to attain.

I think that makes for a good description of the diffence between a healthy ISTJ and an unhealthy one.
 

raz

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I think that makes for a good description of the diffence between a healthy ISTJ and an unhealthy one.

I do things because "it's what's done" because it's necessary to accomplish a certain goal.
 

Andy

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I do things because "it's what's done" because it's necessary to accomplish a certain goal.

Are doing so because it shapes the opinions of others in such a mannor that they become favourable to you, thus making your goals easier? Or just because of an emotional impulse that such a thing has to be correct. I ask because the psychological implications of the two are very different!
 

raz

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Are doing so because it shapes the opinions of others in such a mannor that they become favourable to you, thus making your goals easier? Or just because of an emotional impulse that such a thing has to be correct. I ask because the psychological implications of the two are very different!

It's situational. Sometimes I change something just because I feel uneasy seeing something not unorganized. Sometimes I change something because I just can't think straight seeing something unorganized. Sometimes I tell someone to do something because I/We might get punished for not doing it correctly. Sometimes I do something a certain way just because I don't know any better!
 

IZthe411

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It's situational. Sometimes I change something just because I feel uneasy seeing something not unorganized. Sometimes I change something because I just can't think straight seeing something unorganized. Sometimes I tell someone to do something because I/We might get punished for not doing it correctly. Sometimes I do something a certain way just because I don't know any better!


Do you ever do something because you feel it's a better way to do it? Not sure if you are using 'unorganized in that manner', because something can be organized but still be inefficient, or just not make any sense.


If you don't know any better, then it's best to do it the way you were taught. So I agree there.

I know that for most things I do, I'll start doing it the way that I was instructed, but I'm always on the lookout for ways to do it better, either by thinking of ways myself or being receptive to feedback of others. Sometimes if it's something that I enjoy doing, or it's so mindless and easy that it's immaterial, I won't think to do it differently.

For SJs, since the 'possibilities' function is either 3rd or 4th place, there's a good chance that it does not come to use fairly often, especially in younger people. I developed mines due to my work- we were encouraged to always look to do things differently than the previous instance. Creativity and efficiency were always praised. So it pains me where I am now, where if you introduce the possibility of doing something different, people curl in the fetal position because it's almost like tearing a piece of their soul.
 

EJCC

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A relevant interaction from the Ask an ESTJ thread:

It started with Athenian asking how ESTJs deal with those different from them. And then:
If their different-ness makes them difficult to deal with (e.g. if they have bad social skills, or they won't stop talking no matter what), then I might not want to be around them. I might be indifferent to them, or respond them with one word answers, or something along those lines. But if they're different in a way that I find to be harmless (e.g. wearing an outrageous costume to a social gathering when costumes weren't expected), then I may even find that different-ness to be charming, and it might draw me to them. You might get an immediate reaction like "Whoa... that's weird", but I get over that fast once it's proven to me that you're actually cool, despite/because of your weirdness.
But that answer really only applies in social situations.
In work situations, if the person's different-ness interferes with their ability to work and to get things done efficiently (or if I find it offensive), then I'm not okay with it. Otherwise, you know, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, and so on and so on. :)
So I guess, if my answers apply to other ESTJs, we can be quite intolerant at first, but we're fairly easily convinced that different people are cool. (It's my personal belief that NFs can be WAY more closed-minded than ESTJs are, because their beliefs are so much more... personal, for lack of a better word.)
Wow. It sounds like you're fairly open minded. I wasn't really thinking about being different in terms of having bad social skills or being rude, though. I kind of take those things for granted. My idea of "different" would be something more like... a guy wearing a purple shirt or having long hair, or a girl wearing pants instead of a dress. Or, I suppose, unusual clothing or hair styles in general? I'd never even imagined the possibility of someone wearing a costume when they weren't supposed to (at least not on purpose). :shock: Stuff like that really happens? Interesting.
Oh, okay. This depends on the ESTJ, I think. Honestly, it depends on what the ESTJ considers to be "traditional". The idea of what's "traditional" is very subjective. I grew up in a liberal part of the country, with open-minded parents, and I went to schools with open outlooks. I've been to drag shows before, I have friends who dress up in leopard-print onesies because that's their style (she's the one who inspired the costume comment), and I went to a Nine Inch Nails concert... although I brought earplugs :) But then again, most of my friends do things like this too, so for me, anyways, it IS "traditional". The examples you gave of things that are "different" are things that I find to be completely normal. It's generational, I think... a middle-aged ESTJ might be much more closed-minded, because today's culture isn't the one they were raised with, and a (American) white male ESTJ might be more closed-minded, because, in all honesty, white males have traditionally been on the opposite side of change for much of history, while women and minorities haven't been. (But that's a HUGE generalization, so pardon me... you see my point, I hope.)

Edit: Since I'm young, I think of myself as picking and choosing traditions at the moment. I think that by the time I've "settled down", so to speak, I'll be more closed-minded. I'm already pretty closed-minded about certain things, including new technology (f*cking Kindle needs to DIE FOREVER).

But at the moment, I'm pretty non-traditional.
 

miss fortune

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I don't think that any of the SJs I know would do something "just because that's the way it's done" without having to know WHY first :) In fact, I don't think I've met many people who ask more questions than my ISFJ mom (and no, they're not all "are you making sure to take your birth control?" she asks questions about EVERYTHING) and I got kept awake the other night looking up if fish sleep and how for my ISTJ :doh:

so no, not incurious by any means and not willing to do something just because it's always done that way :cheese:
 

Gerbah

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I second the above. I really need to know WHY. I've been told more than once that it's hard to tell me what to do. Especially if the status quo looks irrational to me or it's being preached by someone who I think is irrational. It's hard for me to go against logic.
 
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