• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[MBTI General] ISTJs Explained By ISTJs: Post your questions here!

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
2,585
MBTI Type
INTJ
I have a question.

I understand that your main cognitive function Si. Does that imply that you seek to fit in? But as an Introvert, does it work? It's as if you're goal is the same cause of disadvantage.


Good question.

Answer: Not necessarily. Si is 'traditional' in the sense that it focuses on past experiences, and that differs from person to person.

Let's take a hypothetical- let's take it back to high school as a background. If an ISTJ was to look at his classmates he'd likely assess them by what they are involved in and who they hang with. So he might see the jocks and conclude that all they are interested in is sports and goofing off (based on his storehouse of information about athletes). ISTJ hates sports and is a serious student. So he'll avoid any unnecessary interaction with them, at the expense of his fitting in, as his Si may also assign their activities as what's necessary to fit in. He could want to fit in (normal for a lot of teens), but if that's what it takes to fit in, then he'll gladly stay out of place.

Being introverted isn't a hindrance to fitting in, btw. Using the above, there could be an ISTJ among the athletes, and although he may not be as gregarious as his more extraverted teammates, he fits in because his experiences are in line with this group. The athlete ISTJ may not consider themselves fitting in, though; he'll feel this is his group of friends and nothing more.
 

Craft

Probably Most Brilliant
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
1,221
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
So "fitting in" isn't actually an Si thing?
 

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
2,585
MBTI Type
INTJ
So "fitting in" isn't actually an Si thing?

If anything, a desire to fit in is a more introverted judgement. ISTJs have tert Fi, so they could want it, but they'd likely do without. I think the Si/Ne loop would prevent them from actually putting forth the effort to fit in. The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
So "fitting in" isn't actually an Si thing?

If anything, a desire to fit in is a more introverted judgement. ISTJs have tert Fi, so they could want it, but they'd likely do without. I think the Si/Ne loop would prevent them from actually putting forth the effort to fit in. The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it.

"Fitting in" per se is more of an Fe thing, not an Si thing. So xSFJ would want to "fit in." The Si does direct, to some degree, what one perceives as "acceptable" for fitting in.
 

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
2,585
MBTI Type
INTJ
"Fitting in" per se is more of an Fe thing, not an Si thing. So xSFJ would want to "fit in." The Si does direct, to some degree, what one perceives as "acceptable" for fitting in.

Upon further thought, yeah I can see Fe at play, but why not Fi?
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Upon further thought, yeah I can see Fe at play, but why not Fi?

Fi is rather contrarian, especially with respect to feelings. Both inverted judging functions are rather contrarian, for different reasons.

Fe and Te, on the other hand, are conformist. So xSTJ and xSFJ both conform, but they conform to different standards. xSTJ is concerned about what works, and sticking to a plan that works. ISO requirements are very "STJ", for example. xSFJ is more about fitting in with society/people as a whole. Whenever I hear someone assert that I should agree with them because they're an ally, even when wrong, I think "xSFJ." (I might be typing them wrong, but it's usually a very good first guess.)

So the SiTeFi person will tend to want to conform for pragmatic reasons, not Fi emotional ones, while the SiFeTi person will want to conform for social reasons. I took "fit in" to imply the social context, hence Fe.

Notice how you said, "The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it." I.e., "worth it" meaning for practical/pragmatic reasons. Very ISTJ, very Fi. Fi is the most likely source of your feeling here, and it's expressing an antisocial sentiment, quite contrary to fitting in.

To clarify the nature of Te conformity vs Fe conformity, let me give an example of each. Te-conformity would be "everyone must drive on the right side of the road." The purpose of such conformity is no particular preference for the right side of the road, because either side would do. The purpose is that everyone must drive on the same side of the road in order for traffic to flow well. Te-conformity does not mind, in principle, that to drive in England, as opposed to the US, one must drive on the left side, even if one is inconvenienced and it feels funny. The point isn't to "fit in", but to "not get into an accident." Fe conformity would be more along the lines of "wear red white and blue on July 4th" in the US. Wearing patriotic colors generates feelings of friendship, comradery, togetherness. The colors serve no practical purpose whatsoever, but purely a social purpose.

(Bear in mind that these are merely simple examples of behavior, and not a means to determine one's type. xSTJs can feel very bit as patriotic as xSFJs: it is why and how those feelings are felt and expressed that differs.)
 

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
2,585
MBTI Type
INTJ
Fi is rather contrarian, especially with respect to feelings. Both inverted judging functions are rather contrarian, for different reasons.

Fe and Te, on the other hand, are conformist. So xSTJ and xSFJ both conform, but they conform to different standards. xSTJ is concerned about what works, and sticking to a plan that works. ISO requirements are very "STJ", for example. xSFJ is more about fitting in with society/people as a whole. Whenever I hear someone assert that I should agree with them because they're an ally, even when wrong, I think "xSFJ." (I might be typing them wrong, but it's usually a very good first guess.)

So the SiTeFi person will tend to want to conform for pragmatic reasons, not Fi emotional ones, while the SiFeTi person will want to conform for social reasons. I took "fit in" to imply the social context, hence Fe.

Notice how you said, "The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it." I.e., "worth it" meaning for practical/pragmatic reasons. Very ISTJ, very Fi. Fi is the most likely source of your feeling here, and it's expressing an antisocial sentiment, quite contrary to fitting in.

To clarify the nature of Te conformity vs Fe conformity, let me give an example of each. Te-conformity would be "everyone must drive on the right side of the road." The purpose of such conformity is no particular preference for the right side of the road, because either side would do. The purpose is that everyone must drive on the same side of the road in order for traffic to flow well. Te-conformity does not mind, in principle, that to drive in England, as opposed to the US, one must drive on the left side, even if one is inconvenienced and it feels funny. The point isn't to "fit in", but to "not get into an accident." Fe conformity would be more along the lines of "wear red white and blue on July 4th" in the US. Wearing patriotic colors generates feelings of friendship, comradery, togetherness. The colors serve no practical purpose whatsoever, but purely a social purpose.

(Bear in mind that these are merely simple examples of behavior, and not a means to determine one's type. xSTJs can feel very bit as patriotic as xSFJs: it is why and how those feelings are felt and expressed that differs.)


Nice explanation man. It makes sense.

Like you, I took fitting in what you have described in the social context/Fe behavior.

So question for you- how does you Ni work along with your Te in terms of the NiTeFi conformity?
 

Sam Spade

New member
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Messages
71
MBTI Type
ISTj
I have a question.

I understand that your main cognitive function Si. Does that imply that you seek to fit in? But as an Introvert, does it work? It's as if you're goal is the same cause of disadvantage.

I used to try to fit in, but gave up on it awhile ago. I'd rather have my close friends than vainly try to fit in with larger groups of people.

Notice how you said, "The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it." I.e., "worth it" meaning for practical/pragmatic reasons. Very ISTJ, very Fi. Fi is the most likely source of your feeling here, and it's expressing an antisocial sentiment, quite contrary to fitting in.

This is very true, at least in my case.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Nice explanation man. It makes sense.

Like you, I took fitting in what you have described in the social context/Fe behavior.

So question for you- how does you Ni work along with your Te in terms of the NiTeFi conformity?

I've found that the best way to explain it is that Ni lets me "swap out rulesets" wholesale. The Si approach is more focused, from what I've read: the ruleset has to be seriously grounded in reality, and that implies limited number of possible rulesets. E.g., using the "which side of the street do you drive on" example, Si has no problem with the "everyone to the left" or the "everyone to the right". Both are reasonable and based in reality. Ni would also consider having no "everyone to either side of the street" rule, while Si would insist that it all had to be one side or the other. E.g., Ni could consider a "just turn your blinkers on to indicate which way you'll go to avoid collision" rule. Si would see all sorts of difficulties with that.

NiTe conformity would be more about admitting ANY possible idea for discussion. (We actually don't mind the "random idea" input from Ne users: far from it, in fact!) As long as the idea has merit, it gets discussed along with all the other options. Si would be more restrictive, relying on "tried and true" ideas, worried that a new idea hasn't been tested enough, and just more comfortable knowing that an idea has worked perfectly well in the past.

Effectively, the SiTe standards for ideas are higher than for NiTe: the ideas need to conform with those standards, usually shared standards such as traffic laws or ISO regulations. The weakness of SiTe is not being a stickler for standards, but rather that such standards, however complete, always have holes. NiTe figures out how to handle the "holes": i.e., you need a new standard, or you just need to get something to work, and your standards just don't apply, NiTe will come up with obvious standards based on existing rules. Also, NiTe is very good at troubleshooting: even in an ISO-compliant process, things go wrong in unexpected ways. NiTe will consider possibilities that just don't occur to those who are primarily guided by the official standards. "But it shouldn't happen that way," is the complaint I often hear. My reply, "I know it shouldn't have, but it did." NiTe can backtrack a result to figure out where the flaw in the process lies, simply by considering alternative "standards" that are "wrong", but actually reflect what occurred in real life.

So SiTe is great w/r to dealing with established process, and will always be sure of how the process should work, and will fit in with that process. NiTe is more resistant to established process, but is great for figuring out what is going wrong with a process, or figuring out what a new process "should be" when there is no good prior example. Both NiTe and SiTe are cooperative with respect to objective process. They will, in general, agree with respect to "it ought to work", but often disagree with respect to whether a new or an established process should be used.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
lol... I was going to say that my ISTJ doesn't particularly care if he fits in or not- he has grumpily announced on a few occasions that he sees no reason to compromise himself just so that someone else will be happy... of course, he's quiet enough that even his stubborn refusal to conform to things is considered pretty inoffensive :laugh:

but it's not like he tries- he's pretty weird :shock:
 

Cimarron

IRL is not real
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
3,417
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
... he has grumpily announced on a few occasions that he sees no reason to compromise himself just so that someone else will be happy... of course, he's quiet enough that even his stubborn refusal to conform to things is considered pretty inoffensive :laugh:

but it's not like he tries- he's pretty weird :shock:
Basically. Sounds like someone who gets it. :jew:
 

Habba

New member
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
988
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Let's take a hypothetical- let's take it back to high school as a background... ISTJ hates sports and is a serious student...

I'd like to point out that ISTJs most likely prefer team sports over individual sports, since they'll probably feel more satisfied for contributing to a team effort, than to their own individual goals. That's at least what I feel when playing football (the real football, not the one where you carry the oval ball-like object) as a central defender.

Being a defender I rarely get to score goals, and thus I'm not celebrated too often. And whenever I fail to perform well, we have most likely conceded a goal, and I'm likely to get the blame for it... That kind of role requires a great amount of devotion towards the team as personal rewards are unlikely.

And about 'fitting in'. Usually I don't do things to fit in, but neither do I do things to 'single out'. ISxJs prefer harmony over many things, and usually see rebellious behavior as harmful and regressive. At least I like to consider the losses caused by disturbances compared to the gains before I cause any. I just like to get the job done as efficiently as possible, egos must not get into the way.
 

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
2,585
MBTI Type
INTJ
I'd like to point out that ISTJs most likely prefer team sports over individual sports, since they'll probably feel more satisfied for contributing to a team effort, than to their own individual goals. That's at least what I feel when playing football (the real football, not the one where you carry the oval ball-like object) as a central defender.

Being a defender I rarely get to score goals, and thus I'm not celebrated too often. And whenever I fail to perform well, we have most likely conceded a goal, and I'm likely to get the blame for it... That kind of role requires a great amount of devotion towards the team as personal rewards are unlikely.

And about 'fitting in'. Usually I don't do things to fit in, but neither do I do things to 'single out'. ISxJs prefer harmony over many things, and usually see rebellious behavior as harmful and regressive. At least I like to consider the losses caused by disturbances compared to the gains before I cause any. I just like to get the job done as efficiently as possible, egos must not get into the way.

My example an ISTJ who hated sports- hope you didn't conclude that I said all ISTJs disliked sports.

I do agree- I like team sports more than solo- and I'd rather defend than be a scorer. I love blocking shots playing basketball and volleyball. Offensively, I'll defer to others, but if we are struggling and there's no clear leadership on the team, I take over. You are right- I prefer the team harmony over self glory, and I need to find a balance between taking shots and assisting the other player.

And American Football is the greatest!!!!!!! :workout:
 

Rainne

One day and the next
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
875
MBTI Type
ISTP
Do ISTJs repeat personal things said to them through gossip and conversation?

Or am I thinking ISFJ...
 

Ozz

New member
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
197
MBTI Type
ISTJ
I'd like to point out that ISTJs most likely prefer team sports over individual sports, since they'll probably feel more satisfied for contributing to a team effort, than to their own individual goals. That's at least what I feel when playing football (the real football, not the one where you carry the oval ball-like object) as a central defender.

Being a defender I rarely get to score goals, and thus I'm not celebrated too often. And whenever I fail to perform well, we have most likely conceded a goal, and I'm likely to get the blame for it... That kind of role requires a great amount of devotion towards the team as personal rewards are unlikely.

It would explain why I actually dislike team based sport: I am not athletic and I don't want to drag the team down.
 

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
2,585
MBTI Type
INTJ
Do ISTJs repeat personal things said to them through gossip and conversation?

Or am I thinking ISFJ...

No! I will say that I don't divulge confidential information. I'm a vault!:yes:
 

raz

Let's make this showy!
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
2,523
MBTI Type
LoLz
I like the team sports the more complicated they are...I like to see the group of people working together to accomplish something. The synergy and dependency within the team is amazing. It's why I like team based video games. I like knowing my contribution is part of a bigger whole that's acting as a unified force.

I don't get into sports much, though. If I did, I would prefer team sports. I'd likely find myself in leadership positions unintentionally constantly. I'd be the one remembering all the rules, strategies, players, etc.

As for divulging gossip, I stay away from gossip unless I'm forced into it. If I am, that information is confidential unless the person tells me otherwise. I respect the person's privacy.
 

Gerbah

New member
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
433
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
5w4
I personally don't like team sports that much... I like martial arts, the one on one interaction.
 

Square Circle

New member
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
15
MBTI Type
INTP
I have a question about ISTJs' attitudes toward dating.

You see, I have a date with an ISTJ next weekend, and from what I've gathered, ISTJs seem to be more observant of rules and trend towards a conservative attitude. As I am an INTP, it should come as no surprise it has been quite a long time since I've enjoyed some boot knocking. :hi:

I'm wondering, are people with this type likely to have a "no romping on the first date" rule? Please say no. I've exhausted my imagination.
 
Top