[MBTI General] NF and SJ Relationships

[Gerbah]

From what you say it sounds like your parents aren't likely to be able to fix this on their own. And they'll just get more and more frustrated as the years go by.

Maybe they should see a marriage counselor? A third party's help might be what they need.

 

[brainheart]

I love my SJ parents but I couldn't live with them- not so sure I could live in the same city. I'm around them for any length of time and all I can think about is getting wasted. It's weird. I think it has to do with the fact that I feel the need to please them and be the perfect daughter and so I have this conflict between pleasing them and pleasing myself. Typically I feel like a 16 year old in their presence... I'm 35, married with two kids.

But my relationship with them has improved. I just always have to remind myself that I don't want to hurt them and I need to show them respect because that is what they value, but also hold on to my values at the same time.

 

[Lily Bart]

Fidelia -- your ISTJ dad sounds so much like my ISTJ dad. My mom was ESFP, though, but I see a lot of the same patterns in their relationship that you describe. They finally divorced after about 28 very painful years of marriage -- painful for them and for us kids. I've been waiting another 20 years for my dad to have some heart-to-heart with me about the pain that they caused, but it's never going to happen -- you'd almost believe nothing bad ever happened from his perspective.

 

[Fidelia]

It has never been painful living in the same house as them, but it seems that every now and then something happened that reminds me again that things are very much not as they ought to be. I remember when they used to be affectionate and flirty together. Is it just an ISTJ thing to avoid what one feels like they can't/don't want to change? It seems like complete indifference. On the very few occasions that I've really tried to talk real, there is still a stone wall there. As it stands, my dad has never regretted marrying my mum, but she I think has thought that if she knew then what she knew now she wouldn't have and I think that hurts him. And yet, her response is only in response to all the unresolved stuff that happened through all the years. She still loves him.

You're so right Lily Bart - my dad acts as if nothing in the world has ever happened to him that affected him negatively. I don't understand that at all when you have everything in the world to gain and seemingly nothing to lose...

 

[Gerbah]

Is it just an ISTJ thing to avoid what one feels like they can't/don't want to change?

I don't think it's specifically an ISTJ thing to be in denial or avoid things you don't want to change or acknowledge. Rationalising your problems so as to avoid feeling anything is wrong is a common defence that people in general use, whether it's do with intimacy issues, admitting you made a mistake, etc.

I don't understand that at all when you have everything in the world to gain and seemingly nothing to lose...

I assume what he has to lose are his defences against feelings he doesn't want to feel or risks/responsibilities he's scared to take on, especially when it doesn't cost him the loss of your mum's love.

 

[Nyx]

I'm not commenting for the SJs, just adding my four quarters...

Most NFs, even the NJs put priority on Relationship OVER Object Task.
Most SJs, even the SFs put priority on Object Task OVER Relationship.

This is a cannoical order that we follow; when somebody violates that order, we feel distant from that person. I don't care about the laundry as much as I care about going out with my friends...it's really hard to date somebody who cares more about the laundry than socializing, and/or talking about people/community. Object Task serves my Relational Priorities; I'll make a buffet, clean my house from top to bottom, and even make sure my laundry is out of sight, so long as people are coming over.

Generally, this is why relationships with SJs don't work for me. I get along great with them, but I do not think we would work in a relationship.

 

[hermeticdancer]

I'm not commenting for the SJs, just adding my four quarters...

Most NFs, even the NJs put priority on Relationship OVER Object Task.
Most SJs, even the SFs put priority on Object Task OVER Relationship.

This is a cannoical order that we follow; when somebody violates that order, we feel distant from that person. I don't care about the laundry as much as I care about going out with my friends...it's really hard to date somebody who cares more about the laundry than socializing, and/or talking about people/community. Object Task serves my Relational Priorities; I'll make a buffet, clean my house from top to bottom, and even make sure my laundry is out of sight, so long as people are coming over.

well said

 

[Fidelia]

Yep, Fuzzcrossed nailed it. As appealing as I find some elements about SJs and they feel familiar to me, I hate always coming behind the dishes or laundry in priority and the other person not realizing I would also do mine if there was a person who made me want to create nice surroundings for them rather than trying to act like a parent (I like having those things out of the way too, but they can wait for a day or two sometimes without it bothering me).

 

[Space_Oddity]

I'm not commenting for the SJs, just adding my four quarters...

Most NFs, even the NJs put priority on Relationship OVER Object Task.
Most SJs, even the SFs put priority on Object Task OVER Relationship.

This is a cannoical order that we follow; when somebody violates that order, we feel distant from that person. I don't care about the laundry as much as I care about going out with my friends...it's really hard to date somebody who cares more about the laundry than socializing, and/or talking about people/community. Object Task serves my Relational Priorities; I'll make a buffet, clean my house from top to bottom, and even make sure my laundry is out of sight, so long as people are coming over.

This is probably true. But, do you all think this is really insurmountable? Absolutely impossible to work out, at least partly?

Perhaps I'm too optimistic but I believe that people aren't necessarily born SJ and stay the equal amount of SJ for their whole life. Two of my good friends (females) are ISTJ. One of them has always been very easy-going and friendly, and she certainly puts her loved ones before her duties (which is one of the reasons why it was hard for me at first to nail her as SJ). The other friend was very dutiful when she was a teenager, which was partly due to her strict upbringing and obligations imposed on her by her parents, but in recent years she's been getting more and more relaxed, and more and more friendly and 'rebelious', and she certainly doesn't care about her duties as much as she used to. I don't mean to imply that the above described difference between NFs and SJs doesn't exist, because me and my ISTJ boyfriend actually do have this problem, but I think that if one gets too preoccupied with a 'canon' like this, it doesn't really help anything and might make things even worse.

To tell the truth, I think that this varies among NFs as well - my father is an INFP, but he becomes more and more of a workaholic as he grows older and he definitely puts tasks before relationships lately. That's also why he seems fairly 'SJ'ish sometimes. And reversely, I can imagine a fairly 'NF'ish SJ as well.

 

[KLessard]

I am starting to see this priority pattern in SJ and NF. If SJs see themselves as "helpmates," NFs also want to help humanity and inspire people to do good.

SJs have a small circle of people they feel or think they must help, that is family, relatives, neighbours and old friends. These people are on the top of the list. If there is time or energy left for acquaintances or strangers, well...

NFs see a greater picture and see family, friends and neighbours as equal to all humans, and empathy draws them to the human beings who are in greatest need, who are suffering the most, and that might not be family. For that reason, I have seen NFs being accused (inculding myself) by SJs of neglecting family and having bad priorities. I have also seen children or wives/husbands suffering from an NF too busy saving humanity to notice their needs.

 

[Saslou]

I am starting to see this priority pattern in SJ and NF. If SJs see themselves as "helpmates," NFs also want to help humanity and inspire people to do good.

SJs have a small circle of people they feel or think they must help, that is family, relatives, neighbours and old friends. These people are on the top of the list. If there is time or energy left for acquaintances or strangers, well...

NFs see a greater picture and see family, friends and neighbours as equal to all humans, and empathy draws them to the human beings who are in greatest need, who are suffering the most, and that might not be family. Fot that reason I have seen NFs being accused (inculding myself) by SJs of neglecting family and having bad priorities. I have also seen children or wives/husbands suffering from an NF too busy saving humanity to notice their needs.

And SJ's don't do that .. Oh please. Stop thinking inside the box, it limits you.

 

[Fidelia]

I think Sas, what I've noticed is that the SJs around me are truly devoted to a specific group of people close to them and are better able to prioritize. If they don't have enough to give everyone at that time, they'll take care of their family/close friends first. I've noticed tendancies in NFs I've seen to be drawn to whomever is there and who seem the most urgent even if they're not part of the list of close people. That doesn't always work out so well because they run out of resources and sometimes don't end up meeting the needs of those closest to them.

In NF cases, as they mature, I think they often do a better job of taking care of those close to them first and seeing how much they have left to reasonably give to others. For mature SJs it seems as they mature, they start looking outside a more limited group of people. Those of course are generalizations, but seem to be trends.

 

[KLessard]

I think Sas, what I've noticed is that the SJs around me are truly devoted to a specific group of people close to them and are better able to prioritize. If they don't have enough to give everyone at that time, they'll take care of their family/close friends first. I've noticed tendancies in NFs I've seen to be drawn to whomever is there and who seem the most urgent even if they're not part of the list of close people. That doesn't always work out so well because they run out of resources and sometimes don't end up meeting the needs of those closest to them.

In NF cases, as they mature, I think they often do a better job of taking care of those close to them first and seeing how much they have left to reasonably give to others. For mature SJs it seems as they mature, they start looking outside a more limited group of people. Those of course are generalizations, but seem to be trends.

 

[Saslou]

I think Sas, what I've noticed is that the SJs around me are truly devoted to a specific group of people close to them and are better able to prioritize. If they don't have enough to give everyone at that time, they'll take care of their family/close friends first. I've noticed tendancies in NFs I've seen to be drawn to whomever is there and who seem the most urgent even if they're not part of the list of close people. That doesn't always work out so well because they run out of resources and sometimes don't end up meeting the needs of those closest to them.

In NF cases, as they mature, I think they often do a better job of taking care of those close to them first and seeing how much they have left to reasonably give to others. For mature SJs it seems as they mature, they start looking outside a more limited group of people. Those of course are generalizations, but seem to be trends.

OK .. I am aware i have enough time to fit everyone in, i have never limited who i can help .. I will never push anyone away even if that does come at the cost of burning myself out .. Which i am now aware of .. So in order to combat that i have to give myself some time too. See, i don't think in terms of most urgent, i think everyone ..I was talking to a stranger the other day who was unemployed who wanted to become a probation officer and we only spoke for about 5 mins but he kept on putting obstacles in his way .. The advice i gave him, make the enquiries and when informed with all the information, make a decision. I will squeeze you all in somewhere even if it takes some time. That is what a friend is for afterall or even a stranger with a different approach

 

[KLessard]

See, i don't think in terms of most urgent, i think everyone

That makes us quite different, actually. And I have seen friction coming from these two perspectives.
Empathy draws NFs to the most urgent, it's like a magnet, an obligation.

 

[Bubbles]

OK .. I am aware i have enough time to fit everyone in, i have never limited who i can help .. I will never push anyone away even if that does come at the cost of burning myself out .. Which i am now aware of .. So in order to combat that i have to give myself some time too. See, i don't think in terms of most urgent, i think everyone ..I was talking to a stranger the other day who was unemployed who wanted to become a probation officer and we only spoke for about 5 mins but he kept on putting obstacles in his way .. The advice i gave him, make the enquiries and when informed with all the information, make a decision. I will squeeze you all in somewhere even if it takes some time. That is what a friend is for afterall or even a stranger with a different approach

You sound like my ESFJ sister.