[SJ] SJs, explain this authority thing

[run]

I'm asking you SJs, because you're good at this kind of thing. Here's my case study: I have an ESFJ section leader. He quite often uses the structure of authority as his excuse to get away with putting us down, shouting, and call us idiots whenever we make a stupid mistake.

But here's my objection:

Marching band staff is a system made by humans for the sole sake of effeciency. Morality, and how you treat other people isn't. I think its never ok to demean someone. Yes, it might be wrong to argue with an authority figure. That's another question. My question is, when that does happen, it's wrong to publicly embarrass them.

Apparently I had been "defying his authority" in the past couple weeks. I haven't been. I've been merely making suggestions. The part that bugs me is that I was somehow "wrong" for speaking up in public, and I got reamed out today because it ticked him off.

Plus, what's so wrong with making suggestions? It's harmless to suggest something to improve efficiency in the section. I'm not going to wait and approach him in private. I think this kid has an authority complex.

Oh, he constantly reminds us of every little then, then reams us out for not being responsible. If he wants us to be responsible, he should shut up.

 

[Saslou]

Oh my gosh .. How rude of him.

I would never put someone down for making a stupid mistake. It is my job to make you feel like a million dollars so i get the best from you. However i will speak up if someone is totally incompetent (thinking ex team leader) and argue their logic.

I think speaking up is a positive thing and by thinking outside the box, if it results in positive changes for all involved then that has to be a good thing.

I think your team leader is just an asshole or has other things on his mind that are stressing him out.

 

[jenocyde]

Plus, what's so wrong with making suggestions? It's harmless to suggest something to improve efficiency in the section.

I would never put someone down for making a stupid mistake.

I don't understand why suggestions are a stupid mistake.

 

[run]

Now here's another question,

should I call him out when he's rude to us as a section, or should I wait and approach him about it later? I don't want to wait later. But he might not be aware of what he's doing. But then again, he should be, cuz he's bein' an asshole.

Does his position have anything to do with how I should interact with him?

 

[Saslou]

Jenocyde - I am using his/her words. I don't think you should be put down for it though.

call us idiots whenever we make a stupid mistake.

 

[run]

I don't understand why suggestions are a stupid mistake.

I didn't say they were. Like, forgetting certain horn moves, or not laying your horn down like the others (AT PRACTICE)

 

[run]

I am using his/her words. I don't think you should be put down for it though.

?

 

[Saslou]

Now here's another question,

should I call him out when he's rude to us as a section, or should I wait and approach him about it later? I don't want to wait later. But he might not be aware of what he's doing. But then again, he should be, cuz he's bein' an asshole.

Does his position have anything to do with how I should interact with him?

Pull him to one side (alone) and be careful how you word it.
See outside work i want to get on with everyone. In work, i am a little more ruthless in that i want efficient, competent people on my team. I just want the job done to the best of our abilities.
He should be able to see what you can bring to the table though and appreciate it. This may be a deeper issue and have nothing to do with you lot via work.

EDIT - Personally, i would want you on my team. I see the details, you see the bigger picture .. That is a win win situation in my book.

 

[NewEra]

This seems like a subjective thing. A lot of this depends on the extent to which you're calling this authority figure out in public. Does he really call you idiots? What do the other people who are under his leadership think of him? Do they think about him the same way as you do? I think you should take this into consideration.

Now here's another question,

should I call him out when he's rude to us as a section, or should I wait and approach him about it later? I don't want to wait later. But he might not be aware of what he's doing. But then again, he should be, cuz he's bein' an asshole.

Does his position have anything to do with how I should interact with him?

You should wait, it seems as though he's angry at you for calling him out while in public. Why don't you want to wait?

 

[run]

This seems like a subjective thing. A lot of this depends on the extent to which you're calling this authority figure out in public. Does he really call you idiots? What do the other people who are under his leadership think of him? Do they think about him the same way as you do? I think you should take this into consideration.

Yes, he really calls us idiots. When he's angry. It does seem subjective. But there's subjective, then there's shouting, calling us idiots, and lumping the rep it all together as "that was terrible!" He's right, but jesus christ.

They don't seem to have any idea. But there's one kid who argued with him today too.

You should wait, it seems as though he's angry at you for calling him out while in public. Why don't you want to wait?

I don't want to wait, because then the situation is over. I can't recall a situation with the context back with him.

 

[proteanmix]

I have been in several situations at work, some I've been involved in others I've just been a spectator in which people have made "suggestions" but their tone and the content of their "suggestion" has automatically put others on the defensive. I would not describe the people who have gotten defensive hypersensitive. The spirit in which a suggestion/helpful hint is given often and how (time, place, context, etc) affects how the suggestion is made. We've had several meetings where people shout out changes and suggestions and nobody gets upset and everyone agrees that's a good idea. Others (typically depending on the person's previous track record) everyone bristles when one person opens their mouth and people don't even respond.

I can see little snide comments like "He's so stupid, why can't we line up like blah blah blah?" or "why do we do we have line up our horns?" made in a whining voice that erodes the patience and good manners of your section leader. Of course your section leader could be giddy with power and truly an asshole. Or he could be dealing with a bunch of recalcitrant brats. I'm not going to brand him rude and or a power trip just because your version of events says so.

I was in marching band when I was in high school and the thought was if you couldn't even get in the proper formation while practicing why would lead your section leader and drum major believe that you'll do it during a game or performance? That's what the concept of practice is all about, for you refine and demonstrate your knowledge of the music and the formations.

So I don't know how much this has to do with SJs and authority, but I do know that a lot of it has to do with how you speak and say things to people on both ends. I wanted to be in marching band when I was in high school and enjoyed it, so I did what I was told mostly. My sections leaders were made section leaders because they played better than the rest of us and typically were juniors or seniors who had been in band since they were freshman. I don't know if that's how it's arranged at your school though.

 

[NewEra]

I don't want to wait, because then the situation is over. I can't recall a situation with the context back with him.

Okay, but I think that if you tried to call him out during a practice (and he didn't like it), then you should try a different avenue and speak to him privately, see what he says. Just try it, see how it goes.

 

[Spectre of the spam]

I don't like confrontation. If someones causing a problem, I would politely ask them to stop in private. If I didn't I would give them an ultimatum. If they kept on doing it, they're out of the group. Now, that's just me, I don't like confrontation and it wouldn't work from me, but if the best way to get to people is that way, someone else is in their rights doing it.

Now, i'm assuming that i'm in a position of authority for this. It wouldn't be my problem and I wouldn't care unless it affected me if I wasn't.

 

[Fidelia]

In my experience I've found that NTs are the most likely to question how things are done. It is not meant as anything personal, but because it is done fairly bluntly and publicly, it often puts people on the defensive (particularly SJs and NFs will not appreciate it).

SJs are the most likely to view the structure of authority as significant and feel that you are trying to usurp their position. They also tend to acquiesce to authority and expect you to do the same. It's the equivalent of standing in the grocery line and someone just walking up and edging in ahead of them and making them look stupid in the process. Although you may not see your questions as a challenge to their authority necessarily, most likely they will. You also haven't given them a chance to save face by doing it privately, so they feel that you've made them look stupid in front of the group, which will make them dig their heels in more (whether you have a better idea or not) and even react emotionally (which will cause you to lose respect for their authority, which doesn't hold so much water for an NT in the first place).

With an NF, they will resent you questioning them publicly because it feels hostile and they immediately will feel like you dislike them and think less of you for presenting your opinion in what is perceived as an abrasive and challenging way in front of others. For them it's more of a personal thing rather than you questioning their position. They may react emotionally as well.

While it might seem better to you to make your opinion known in the moment, it generally is less efficient and will not get the result you want, which is for things to run in the way they ought to and for the leader to treat you and the rest of the group with respect.

 

[Cimarron]

About authority: I don't know...maybe it's easier to "know" who has the answers instead of constantly guessing and shifting to find someone who does? Though of course people can't always rely on the truth to be set up so easily that way, but it is more convenient to have it in one place. Maybe that's how "authority" came to be, as a social concept?

On your story: I think you'd be much more likely to get what you want if you talk to him in private. Well, public humiliation may get what you want in the short-term, but may cut off possibilities in the long-term.

 

[IZthe411]

Even though I'm SJ I don't automatically defer to the authority figure if I don't agree with their decision. And if I'm the authority person, if a person respectfully asks questions my decision, I'm kind of mixed on the defensive/agreeable stance. I guess by nature I will feel like they are challenging me, but I try not to take it that way, and if it's a good idea I agree to change.

I think especially at work, I'm more likely to question the way things are done, because I tend to always looks for ways to improve things.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

I can deffinatley relate here to what everyone else is saying behalf of SJ's. I know for myself, when somebody questions me it typically isnt a BIG deal. It hurts a little, but if its said with kindness then I can get over it. But if its said in a really...in your face kind of way, then it can hurt and really offend me. Then that person is marked in my head as someone who will continue to disrepect me and my authority. Everybody has a way of running things, just take the extra step and actually listen and pay attention. In some cases, other peoples' ways of doing things can be better than yours in the long run.
If you have questions, wait until after practice and talk to him alone. Dont be rude and sarcastic. Just ask, simple as that. Hope i helped.

 

[RaptorWizard]

No offense SJs but my Ti justice compells me to speak the truth! Authority is both all powerful and all stupid. I guess I can't blame you guys to much though for your dependence upon authority since it is pretty much programmed into your systems from birth since type never changes!

 

[Winds of Thor]

I'm asking you SJs, because you're good at this kind of thing. Here's my case study: I have an ESFJ section leader. He quite often uses the structure of authority as his excuse to get away with putting us down, shouting, and call us idiots whenever we make a stupid mistake.

But here's my objection:

Marching band staff is a system made by humans for the sole sake of effeciency. Morality, and how you treat other people isn't. I think its never ok to demean someone. Yes, it might be wrong to argue with an authority figure. That's another question. My question is, when that does happen, it's wrong to publicly embarrass them.

Apparently I had been "defying his authority" in the past couple weeks. I haven't been. I've been merely making suggestions. The part that bugs me is that I was somehow "wrong" for speaking up in public, and I got reamed out today because it ticked him off.

Plus, what's so wrong with making suggestions? It's harmless to suggest something to improve efficiency in the section. I'm not going to wait and approach him in private. I think this kid has an authority complex.

Oh, he constantly reminds us of every little then, then reams us out for not being responsible. If he wants us to be responsible, he should shut up.

A suggestion would be then to offer your thoughts using a disclaimer to the SJ. As in 'As a suggestion...what might be right about doing such and such...?'. That sort of thing tends to go over generally well and in a language they're more apt to understand.

Of course, if he's belligerent, there's little anyone except whoever signs his paycheck can do.

 

[EJCC]

No offense SJs but my Ti justice compells me to speak the truth! Authority is both all powerful and all stupid. I guess I can't blame you guys to much though for your dependence upon authority since it is pretty much programmed into your systems from birth since type never changes!

I enjoy witnessing this hobby of yours, RaptorWizard. It's like if you're browsing at the library and something catches your eye that you haven't read in years -- and then you open that book and find someone's ridiculous comments in the margins.