[MBTI General] ISTJs/ESTJs Is there anyone who actually sees your true feelings?

[hommefatal]

I am an ENFP but I act like an ISTJ in school. Sure, my N is visible when I am interested and my P is visible when I say precision is overrated. But when not interested I sit there and avoid attracting attention. Most people would think I am boring but if they notice how I really am they don't believe it or are shocked. I really avoid showing my feelings because I show them only to people I trust. But then I am extremely talkative. Sometimes when I am really depressed and I slump they think I'm playing though I feel it. But then I recover myself quickly.

 

[nozflubber]

does it matter whether you can see an XSTJs emotions or not? Their feelings are so predictable and linear that I don't think it would even matter....

 

[NewEra]

All three of our families include NTs, NFs, and SJs!

Count me in as the fourth. My mom's INFJ, my dad's ENTJ, I'm ISTJ. My dad and I can't understand my mom's emotional response, but my mom and I connect since we're both introverts.

 

[Fidelia]

nozflubber - The exact point I'm making is that our thinking types are so different and they don't verbalize their thought processes so I am left solely with what I extrapolate from their actions. Now that I have more input, yes it is much easier to predict their thought processes. I think you being a T makes it simpler for you to guess as well.

Chosen One - That's really interesting! Because STJs resolve things in a more contained way (I'll take care of it in my own head or wait for you to take care of it in yours), I think they are also less likely to ever seek out what is causing the miscommunication between types. What "drove" me to this forum was that I need some kind of discussion or information exchange to fix problems and I was getting nowhere doing it the way I was. I wonder if your mum and dad have figured out these differences already. How do they handle it? Also how does the INFJ/ENTJ combo work? I think it could be wonderful as long as both are balanced.

 

[NewEra]

Chosen One - That's really interesting! Because STJs resolve things in a more contained way (I'll take care of it in my own head or wait for you to take care of it in yours), I think they are also less likely to ever seek out what is causing the miscommunication between types. What "drove" me to this forum was that I need some kind of discussion or information exchange to fix problems and I was getting nowhere doing it the way I was. I wonder if your mum and dad have figured out these differences already. How do they handle it? Also how does the INFJ/ENTJ combo work? I think it could be wonderful as long as both are balanced.

The differences for them are not really type-related, mostly involves the way my dad was brought up (in a more harsh environment), where my mom grew up in a friendly (albeit economically poor) environment.

 

[Fidelia]

I wondered if any of you could comment on this: there is a great need for SJs to feel that they are of service. At the same time, I have noticed that sometimes when their partners need their help most, they back off and feel that it is not their obligation.

I can think of three examples of this with three different couples, all when the partner had a big event to put on and not many people to call on to help out. There was a lot of physical work, but probably their biggest role was to help carry the emotional responsibility of pulling the whole thing off. In all three cases, they bailed. Was it that they needed their help to be asked for more explicitly? Was it that there were any other helpers and the SJ didn't feel they were as needed or wouldn't get the credit that they had earned from their past involvements? Was this a way of "getting back" at the other person for some unrelated problem? Is it that they feel more separate and that it was just the other person's responsibility? Could it be that they thought the other person should have been able to figure out an efficient way to do it themselves?

This especially puzzles me because in general I have found them to be most helpful: doing things like packing the car, fixing things for someone, thinking ahead for the other person about details they might forget, and so on. They also have seemed extraordinarily easy going about things that would bother others like being patient while their partner is shopping, being fairly flexible about plans, or being happy to give rides and be of service generally. Why does it change for something like this?

The other thing I noticed from several posts on one of these threads sometimes giving help is seen as an obligation and that it is also only given to those who you are close to or who deserve it. When you help people you don't know well, it is more about proving your own competence? When you help people you care about, why do you do it and under what circumstances do you resent doing it (or decide not to)?

 

[EJCC]

does it matter whether you can see an XSTJs emotions or not? Their feelings are so predictable and linear that I don't think it would even matter....

:steam:

I wondered if any of you could comment on this: there is a great need for SJs to feel that they are of service. At the same time, I have noticed that sometimes when their partners need their help most, they back off and feel that it is not their obligation.

...Was it that they needed their help to be asked for more explicitly? Was it that there were any other helpers and the SJ didn't feel they were as needed or wouldn't get the credit that they had earned from their past involvements? Was this a way of "getting back" at the other person for some unrelated problem? Is it that they feel more separate and that it was just the other person's responsibility? Could it be that they thought the other person should have been able to figure out an efficient way to do it themselves?

STJs, I think, are generally very good at noticing things that need to be done and then doing those things. They take responsibility for getting things done pretty easily, generally. But "emotional responsibility" is a whole different thing. I'm not sure why they do that, but I kind of think it's a combination of these two things:
1. An irrational "Oh, he/she's got it covered, so I'll just sit back".
2. A fear of emotional commitment/insecurity about personal ability to handle emotional commitments/fear of the unknown (with the unknown in this case being... emotional commitments).

 

[swordpath]

1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.

I would hope I can help a close one to not feel weak... Also, I'm only human. If things ever get so low, I'll confide in someone I trust. I don't really have anyone like that though... Besides my mom. But, she's my mom...

2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?

No.

3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?

I believe I'm fair and just. If someone I love is genuinely hurting or in need of support, I'll be behind them all the way. However, sometimes people will continually put themselves in bad situations and won't do anything to help their own condition. I don't have a lot of patience for that.

4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?

I just hate the feeling of being weak/vulnerable. It's a very insecure state to be in.

5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?

Totally depends. Refer to my answer in question 3.

 

[swordpath]

does it matter whether you can see an XSTJs emotions or not? Their feelings are so predictable and linear that I don't think it would even matter....

I friggin love you

I bet you didn't see that one coming, ass.

 

[Fidelia]

noz flubber - Are you just trying to make the STJs mad like angry hornets for the heck of it? Please don't. We could set up a nice fight on another thread though if you're looking for a bit of controversy....

EJCC - Yes, yes, I think that's it! So, would it be better for us to explicitly explain that we need their presence and help desperately and how they could do that in practical terms or would that feel like coersion? (All of this is assuming that I've tried not to put them in an unnecessarily stressful situation through lack of planning ahead). Also if they understood the exponentially high payback they would receive emotionally for helping, would that overcome the fear of #2? I mean, the kinds of things I'm referring to doing are like moving tables, or doing the last minute can't-be-done before work that comes with putting on a big event for a crowd or something like that, not mopping up tears with a person in a state of emotional mush. I think for me, it seems very clear when I need help and after stating how much there is to do and how few people there are that I can call on their non-presence tell me they don't want to. I feel like asking them is coersion because since they can see I'm stressed and are not offering help, they've made up their mind. Is that true?

Beat - I feel that "helping a person not feel weak" is different than you actually leaning on them for either advice, assistance, expertise or support in some way. The first feels patronizing, whereas the second feels like we are equals in a partnership in which you see me as someone who has something to offer you. Your response for number 3 though seems perfectly reasonable. There are some people who do not learn from their mistakes.

 

[nozflubber]

I friggin love you

I bet you didn't see that one coming, ass.

no but i saw the snarky ass comment!

willyoubemyfriendplz?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

does it matter whether you can see an XSTJs emotions or not? Their feelings are so predictable and linear that I don't think it would even matter....

I'd say the ESTJ has a lot more trouble with introspection of their emotions than ISTJ does.

My mom is an ISTJ. ISTJ's emotions, when voiced...make sense. They are predictable/linear in that way. I mean, let's be honest, the ISTJ probably wouldn't voice his/her emotions if they didn't make sense for the situation.

ESTJ? Not so linear. The ESTJ I know is one of the most complex people I've ever met. Coming from an INTP, that's pretty complex! I don't necessarily understand why he makes the choices he does (mostly interpersonal choices). Whereas with my mom, her decisions MAKE SENSE to me. I can see the underlying reason she did this or that. ESTJ kinda leaves me doing a lot of this ----> :rolli:

 

[Fidelia]

Any of you ESTJs available for comment on that?

 

[EJCC]

I'm available for comment! (Jeez, with phrases like that, you should be a reporter.)

I'd say the ESTJ has a lot more trouble with introspection of their emotions than ISTJ does.

Agreed. I'm not very good with that, although since discovering MBTI, I'm a WHOLE LOT better.

ESTJ? Not so linear. The ESTJ I know is one of the most complex people I've ever met. Coming from an INTP, that's pretty complex! I don't necessarily understand why he makes the choices he does (mostly interpersonal choices). Whereas with my mom, her decisions MAKE SENSE to me. I can see the underlying reason she did this or that. ESTJ kinda leaves me doing a lot of this ----> :rolli:

Hm... I hadn't really thought about it... but nozflubber's comment did annoy me because I feel like there's a lot more going on in my head than people think there is. (I just don't know how to express a lot of it in words.) So maybe that's a sign that MDP's got it right. But I have a feeling that ESTJs are all going to have different answers as to what makes their thinking complex, since we don't really introspect enough to diagnose it. So I'll just ramble for a paragraph and see if it gets anywhere :

I tend to have a lot of inner conflict in my more stressed-out moments. (I refer you all to the "iceman and the child" thread... awesome, accurate concept.) I have many convictions that end up being... well, not NAIVE, per se, but too idealistic to really work out... and those convictions are challenged all the time. The fact that we live with those challenges, and often have to make tough choices that conflict with those convictions (because there's no other option), is probably what makes people think that ESTJs are hypocrites. (And, well, we ARE, but so is everyone, in some way or another.) So, with all that conflict going on (which, presumably, doesn't happen much with INTPs, since they're so inherently realistic and logical), and with none of that conflict spoken of to the people around them, it makes sense that people might think they're kind of two-dimensional in their thinking. (After all, ESTJs are famous for making tough decisions, following through with them, and not looking back, NOT for the complicated thought processes they have to go through to get to those tough decisions.)

Now, I don't know how much of that paragraph was BS and how much of it might actually refer to other ESTJs, but... hopefully most of it is accurate.

 

[Matthew_Z]

ISTJ's emotions, when voiced...make sense. They are predictable/linear in that way. I mean, let's be honest, the ISTJ probably wouldn't voice his/her emotions if they didn't make sense for the situation.

From the perspective of the Jungian Cognitive Functions, Fi is used to supplement the Te in the case of an ISTJ. Emotion is used if it agrees with the analysis created from the Te, and is perhaps even utilized to enhance the analysis. However, if emotion contradicts the the Te analysis, emotion must be discarded for the situation.

From a slightly different viewpoint, it's logical to use emotions when they're helpful, change them to be helpful if they aren't, and ignore them when they cannot be helpful or made helpful. That way, emotions are utilized to their potential, whatever that potential may be.

And, lastly, from my personal feelings on it, emotions are treacherous; logic is not. Logic is constant and only shows rational solutions to situations. Emotions vary and lead to whatever ends they may, sometimes to ends that are not desirable.

 

[EJCC]

it's logical to use emotions when they're helpful, change them to be helpful if they aren't, and ignore them when they cannot be helpful or made helpful. That way, emotions are utilized to their potential, whatever that potential may be.

You are SO LUCKY that this works for you. I wish I could control my emotions this efficiently. Teach me plz? kthxbai

 

[d@v3]

d@v3 - What I mean is that although you may be considered to be strong and reliable by them, the people close to you will ultimately resent putting themselves out there if you are not willing to do so at least on occasion.

I think this is definitely something I have a problem with and I've been working on fixing it, but I don't know how. I mean, it really effects my ability to make new friends I think, but that will surely all change in August (hopefully)

So, what does make you feel close to someone? What behaviour would they exhibit that would bring on those feelings of closeness to them and in turn, how would you show someone that you felt close to them? Would you ever verbalize that? Do you display physical affection easily, or is it difficult? Would it be difficult to tell someone if you love them or are proud of them?

Well, actions speak louder than words. But I'm not talking about hugging and all that, I'm talking about indirect actions... like small gifts or taking them to dinner or something. Or even just sitting down with them and talking about listening to them and making them feel better when they are down. Making sacrifices for your friends and family works too.

For instance, my wife will know when I feel close to her because I will tell her, and (when not in public) I won't mind the hugs and all that. And I WILL sacrifice anything and everything for her- even my own life.

 

[Ozz]

...but probably their biggest role was to help carry the emotional responsibility of pulling the whole thing off. In all three cases, they bailed...

I am having trouble visualizing emotional responsibility. At the risk of sounding ignorant, is it where you tell the other person doing the planning that it's going to be great and it's going to turn out well?

 

[Fidelia]

I think more like feeling a shared responsibility, making it "us" pulling it off instead of "I'm sure you'll be fine". I'm only referring to cases that it is impossible for one person to pull off what they are being asked to by themselves and there are not really any other people to call on. If someone is doing something only if they have to, maybe with or without a positive attitude and only for what they are specifically asked to do, it leaves the person trying to make the whole thing work by taking on the emotional load not only of effectively getting the job done (which they are none too sure about), but also shouldering the (unverbalized but felt) negative feelings of the other person or (if the SO chooses not to help) the feelings brought on by attempting an impossibly large task alone.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I'm available for comment! (Jeez, with phrases like that, you should be a reporter.)


Agreed. I'm not very good with that, although since discovering MBTI, I'm a WHOLE LOT better.


Hm... I hadn't really thought about it... but nozflubber's comment did annoy me because I feel like there's a lot more going on in my head than people think there is. (I just don't know how to express a lot of it in words.) So maybe that's a sign that MDP's got it right. But I have a feeling that ESTJs are all going to have different answers as to what makes their thinking complex, since we don't really introspect enough to diagnose it. So I'll just ramble for a paragraph and see if it gets anywhere :

I tend to have a lot of inner conflict in my more stressed-out moments. (I refer you all to the "iceman and the child" thread... awesome, accurate concept.) I have many convictions that end up being... well, not NAIVE, per se, but too idealistic to really work out... and those convictions are challenged all the time. The fact that we live with those challenges, and often have to make tough choices that conflict with those convictions (because there's no other option), is probably what makes people think that ESTJs are hypocrites. (And, well, we ARE, but so is everyone, in some way or another.) So, with all that conflict going on (which, presumably, doesn't happen much with INTPs, since they're so inherently realistic and logical), and with none of that conflict spoken of to the people around them, it makes sense that people might think they're kind of two-dimensional in their thinking. (After all, ESTJs are famous for making tough decisions, following through with them, and not looking back, NOT for the complicated thought processes they have to go through to get to those tough decisions.)

Now, I don't know how much of that paragraph was BS and how much of it might actually refer to other ESTJs, but... hopefully most of it is accurate.

I totally think ESTJ's have a lot going on in their heads! It's strange that you said hypocrites. I wouldn't use that word but I think I know what you mean. The ESTJ I know, has told me what is annoying to him or what he wouldn't like in someone else and then he has proceeded to date exactly that. Very strange, in my opinion. But yeah, when I've called him out on this he gives no answer or laughs it off. Total eye-roll material for me, just as my INTP silliness, when it kicks in, can usually guarantee an eye-roll from him.