• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[MBTI General] ISTJs/ESTJs Is there anyone who actually sees your true feelings?

NewEra

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
3,104
MBTI Type
I
Chosen One - Do you see sharing what you feel as a weakness/waste of time mostly because you use Thinking as your main function and so feel that the Feeling function is extraneous to the decisions you make?

Well, sort of. I'm not a robot or anything, I do have feelings, but I choose not to share them. My introverted feeling is very high, and it really keeps me on track many times when my head is not on straight.

Everyone - I want to understand this better. I cannot avoid feeling something and can't imagine how it would require thought to figure out what you feel. When something happens to you, what goes through your head first if it is not feelings??? I realize that some types are more independent than others. Are there really no moments when you wish that someone truly understood who you were all the way through? Or would that just feel like a big invasion of privacy?

Good questions, all of them. When something happens to me, I may feel things but I'm admittedly not in tune with them as much, and not as aware of what I feel because I automatically don't pay as much attention to them. I constantly wish others knew who I was all the way through but I'm not comfortable letting my feelings out in the open to make sure they understand me. Privacy has something to do with it, I don't want to give out too much information.

Would you ever think over things that have happened in your life and assess what you liked and what should have been different? Most of the SJs I know would be more likely to just say "What is, is, so why worry about it?" So if that is indeed the case, what informs your future decisions and how do you go about gathering information?

I usually never look back into the past, and say I should have done this, or I shouldn't have done that. I worry more about the immediate future than the past.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.
I hadn't thought that before, really. But if I did need comfort, I would turn to them. I recognize that I need that, sometimes. I just don't like opening up like that. And when I said "the weak one", I really didn't mean it that way.

2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?
Oh no. Paranoia has nothing to do with it. It's more of the fact that I don't want their image of me to be one that involves vulnerability. I want them to see me as strong. If they see me cry, I want them to think "Wow, I've never seen her cry before! This must be serious", as opposed to "What a sensitive person. Poor sweetie." Ugh. I REALLY don't want to be that.

3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?
No to the first question and yes to the second. It's a double standard, really - I understand that many people are more sensitive and/or more willing to open up, and I don't look down on them for it. (Although, to my horror, when I've seen people getting emotional about something that we both had experienced, that didn't affect me at all, I've found myself thinking "Jeez! It's not THAT big a deal!")
With regard to the second question, I think this is where the whole ESTJ-as-a-very-masculine-type thing comes in. If I were a man, this wouldn't be as weird, to be sure, but I always want to be the stereotypical male image with regard to emotions: strong, protective, fearless, a shoulder to cry on, but one who never needs to cry. (Also, I've wanted to be a "badass" since I was about ten. I collected Wolverine comics as a kid - his machismo always appealed to me.) Not that this ideal is healthy, and I know that it's unachievable anyways, but sometimes I think to myself "Wouldn't it be cool if I was like that?"
I told my INFJ mom that whole story recently, and she looked worried for me. She didn't relate at all. She said "But that isn't healthy! You don't want to be like that!" And I had to explain to her "It's a fantasy on the level of wishing for superhuman strength! I know it doesn't work!" But either way, I wonder if any other T women on this forum have a very masculine ideal for themselves like that.

4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?
If in front of people I don't know, it's more of the embarrassment. I feel like I have to go up to people afterwards and tell them that I'm actually not that much of a wimp. When around close friends/family, it's more the feelings I get. Either way, it's both.

5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?
I love it. It means that they really trust me, and being a trusty go-to person is essentially my dream in life. :) It feels great to give advice, or a shoulder to cry on, or anything else like that, and have it be recognized and appreciated. (Why do you think I started my "Ask an ESTJ" thread? :D)
EDIT: I only love it when I know how to react. When it doesn't come naturally to me, and when there's crying involved, then not so much.
 

ChocolateMoose123

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
5,278
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Is it common for you STJ types to "ebb and flow" with people in your life? I'm trying to decide how to describe the behavior I witness...but essentially you are really all about someone's company for a few weeks, calling them and wanting to hang out (I'm not speaking about romance here but as friends) and then disappear for a month or so only to repeat said process over and over again? If this sounds familiar...why do you do this?
 

d@v3

Perfect Gentleman! =D
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
2,830
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Most of you have made reference to not wanting to feel vulnerable and wanting to be the strong one rather than the weak one. I have more questions then:

1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.

2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?

3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?

4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?

5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?

1. Yes, but nobody is forcing them to feel the way they feel. Do they WANT us to turn to them if we are in need of comfort? I can't think of any circumstance where I would turn to someone that I don't know very well for comfort. It just sounds.... odd.

2. Sure, that's part of it anyway... I think. :huh:

3. Of course not! It's a compliment really, because it means that person trusts you. As long as they are not constantly nagging me for money or taking advantage of my kindness, then no, I don't see any reason for them to be more "stoic". (This is all VERY general by the way.)

4. I don't panic, I always have a plan. Depending on whose presence I am in, yes, I do care to some extent how they view me. I don't really know of anyone who sees me as "weak", but then again if there is someone who does, I probably don't see them or interact with them much at all.

5. Both. Most of the time it's that obligating feeling, but I really don't mind helping others. However, when it gets to be constant, my patience and kindness can only go so far... :)
 

d@v3

Perfect Gentleman! =D
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
2,830
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Is it common for you STJ types to "ebb and flow" with people in your life? I'm trying to decide how to describe the behavior I witness...but essentially you are really all about someone's company for a few weeks, calling them and wanting to hang out (I'm not speaking about romance here but as friends) and then disappear for a month or so only to repeat said process over and over again? If this sounds familiar...why do you do this?

I usually don't do any of the calling, people call me. ;) However, when I do call a few times in one week wanting to hang out, and noone seems to be available, then I figure they will call me back when they ARE available to hang out. That way I'm not constantly bothering them... I HATE nagging and bothering people because I hate it when people do that to me! :)
 

Amira

New member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
199
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Ebb and flow in relationships? No, not really, and less than many other types.

Originally Posted by fidelia
Most of you have made reference to not wanting to feel vulnerable and wanting to be the strong one rather than the weak one. I have more questions then:

1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.
Yeah, that is something I keep in mind.

2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?
Somewhat. It's also because I am so thoroughly determined to get over my weaknesses and don't want to be hampered from changing them/still have a reputation for something after I've gotten over it. Obviously I'll lot of weaknesses and vulnerabilities my whole life, but I guess I just want to minimize the risk?

3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?
No, usually I feel honored and consider sort of a trust to keep - unless they are the teary drama person that does that to manipulate, in which case I won't be very sympathetic.

4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?
More about me. It's just hard to let people see all my warts, even though I know it is vital for intimacy.

5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?
See above. If it felt like a horrible obligation I would find someone else to pass it on to, but I usually like being able to help in some way.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Thank you all for your responses! It's interesting to see the similarities between of your posts, but with slightly different emphasis here and there.

d@v3 - For the first one you responded to, I wasn't suggesting you turn to people you didn't know well. I agree that it would be very weird to bleed all over the road in front of someone who isn't in your inner circle. I am talking about the people closest to you and whether or not leaning on each other in times of need is one way or reciprocal. What I mean is that although you may be considered to be strong and reliable by them, the people close to you will ultimately resent putting themselves out there if you are not willing to do so at least on occasion.

So, what does make you feel close to someone? What behaviour would they exhibit that would bring on those feelings of closeness to them and in turn, how would you show someone that you felt close to them? Would you ever verbalize that? Do you display physical affection easily, or is it difficult? Would it be difficult to tell someone if you love them or are proud of them?
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
I have noticed with all of you that you are very willing to be of service as this is an area that you feel competent to offer help in. It seems to me that the main reason emotional displays make you uncomfortable is that you are not sure how to react correctly. In cases where you are less likely to know what to do (eg person close to you comes to you and starts crying) would it help you if they were to tell you at some other previous time what you could do best to be of aid to them? Would that ease some of the discomfort for you? I have wondered about this, because most of the SJs I see at work want desperately to know if they are doing what is needed of them and how well they are doing it (ie are they on the right track and fulfilling their obligations). When they are told specifically what is expected of them and given feedback, they seem fairly happy to comply and fret considerably less because they feel properly prepared. Does this extend to interpersonal relationships?
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
What I mean is that although you may be considered to be strong and reliable by them, the people close to you will ultimately resent putting themselves out there if you are not willing to do so at least on occasion.
Interesting. I really had never thought about this before. I put myself out there so little that... you know. I just had no idea that there was resentment like that. But it makes sense, when you think about it.
Do you mind if I ask YOU a question, even though this thread is aimed at STJs? What sort of "putting themselves out there" are you looking for? What would satisfy that need?

So, what does make you feel close to someone? What behaviour would they exhibit that would bring on those feelings of closeness to them...
Well, assuming that we were friends already, they would have to understand me well, and have good chemistry with me, and most importantly, be warm and caring towards me (this doesn't have to be a showy sort of warmth; they just need to care, you know?). And I need to reciprocate those feelings.

...and in turn, how would you show someone that you felt close to them? Would you ever verbalize that?
Oh, jeez. I dunno. I don't think I could verbalize it - or at least, not without trivializing it a little (e.g. saying "We're good friends now" in passing, instead of saying "You've been such a great friend to me recently, and I appreciate you and love you with all my heart"). If I could, it would be very difficult. I could write it very eloquently in a note, though. :D
It's the whole making-a-big-event-out-of-it thing again. I don't want to cause a big scene. I don't want to be vulnerable.

Do you display physical affection easily, or is it difficult?
It's hard with someone who isn't physically affectionate. I like to know the other person's boundaries, and what's okay with them. It's hard for me to take that first step.
But if the person is huggy, e.g, then I have no problem being physically affectionate.

Would it be difficult to tell someone if you love them or are proud of them?
Pride isn't as hard to express as other things. Love, though... feelings that deep are hard for me to put into words. I'm sure that I could, but it might take some time to put my thoughts together (and some time to work up the courage to express them). I might end up with a little speech in my head or something.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
EJCC - In answer to your question, I think that "putting yourself out there" maybe is the most important to NFs, although it may also be to others (I've never had a chance to ask them). If I ask for help occasionally when needed, look to someone for advice or expertise, turn to them for comfort, express some form of appreciation, accommodate their schedule or needs, or accept a favour they offer to do for me, place something in their care or trust them to run an errand etc these are all slightly vulnerable things. They mean that I trust the other person enough to not take advantage of me and I am also complimenting them by saying that they are competent, reliable and the first person I would go to, trusting that my needs will be met.

When the other person will do none of those things in return, they are in essence saying I am the last person they would go to, that I am unreliable, untrustworthy, and incompetent to meet any of their needs (and everyone does have needs!). They also are implying that I am weak and an obligation, while they are strong and self-sufficient. They may not actually feel that way, but that is how it is perceived. This is worsened especially when criticisms and corrections are voiced more openly than feelings of love or appreciation. While each type expresses vulnerability or trust in different ways, there needs to be some sign of valuing what the other person has to offer other than bolstering up your own sense of self-confidence and competence.

For me, I think finding an area where the person actually does trust and value my competence and then seeking help in that area (whether it is doing a favour, trusting me with a job without overseeing or advising, pursuing a skill that I have, asking for help or advice even in a small way) would all go a long ways to me believing that they trust and respect me.
 

Cimarron

IRL is not real
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
3,417
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I have noticed with all of you that you are very willing to be of service as this is an area that you feel competent to offer help in. It seems to me that the main reason emotional displays make you uncomfortable is that you are not sure how to react correctly. In cases where you are less likely to know what to do (eg person close to you comes to you and starts crying) would it help you if they were to tell you at some other previous time what you could do best to be of aid to them? Would that ease some of the discomfort for you? I have wondered about this, because most of the SJs I see at work want desperately to know if they are doing what is needed of them and how well they are doing it (ie are they on the right track and fulfilling their obligations). When they are told specifically what is expected of them and given feedback, they seem fairly happy to comply and fret considerably less because they feel properly prepared. Does this extend to interpersonal relationships?
I think your assessment here was really good.

However, it would seem a little weird to give instructions ahead of time for how I should handle you in case you become distraught. I know that logically it seems it would be very useful for SJs; I see that, too. Kind of nitpicking, but delivering the advice in an unconvential way like that might make it hard for me to trust that advice. (even if I'd trust you personally) I'm trying to judge whether this would actually be a problem, or whether it's just in my head.
 

NewEra

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
3,104
MBTI Type
I
1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.

This is something I admittedly have trouble with.

2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?

That's somewhat true, that it'll come back later on to bite me in the butt.

3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?

No, I don't look down on them, to each his/her own, and people are different.

4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?

Hmm... even though both are factors, I'd say it's more about how others will view me. But then again the way others view me is one of the categories I want to be good or above good in.

5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?

Honestly I do find it more of an obligation/job than anything else.
 

raz

Let's make this showy!
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
2,523
MBTI Type
LoLz
1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.

Sounds logical. It'd only really be considered if it seemed beneficial to the relationship. It sounds like something worth trying and acknowledging.

2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?

Yep. If I open up too much, people have the ability to take their disagreement with my opinion and alter something that may affect my life negatively. That's one thing I'm consistently afraid of and has to be kept an eye out for.

3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?

If someone lets their guard down in a time frame that seems quick, then I begin to question their character.

4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?

Both.

5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?

Depends on the person. I don't have to always care. As long as the other person's emotional state does not affect my life, I gauge whether to help them based on my emotional attachment to them. Do I care for them? Does their opinion matter to me? It's more like judging whether it just makes me feel better to know I rose to a challenge at times or just felt better to help them. I don't "feel good" about helping someone every second of the day like some people.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Cimarron - I thought about that angle of it too. I know it would seem very odd for someone to give you instructions for handling them. It would almost have to be based on some kind of past occasion that had seemed awkward. Something that just makes it so that it doesn't seem like you are being expected to find some unknown item in some unknown location and then the person gets upset if you don't find it.

Or maybe it's along the same lines that someone might say, "If you ever get locked out of my place when I'm gone, you can find a spare key in the laundry room under the box of dryer sheets".
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
EJCC - In answer to your question, I think that "putting yourself out there" maybe is the most important to NFs, although it may also be to others (I've never had a chance to ask them). If I ask for help occasionally when needed, look to someone for advice or expertise, turn to them for comfort, express some form of appreciation, accommodate their schedule or needs, or accept a favour they offer to do for me, place something in their care or trust them to run an errand etc these are all slightly vulnerable things. They mean that I trust the other person enough to not take advantage of me and I am also complimenting them by saying that they are competent, reliable and the first person I would go to, trusting that my needs will be met.
Thank you for answering. That's very helpful. The NFs I know are mysteries to me in so many ways, that it's good to hear how they feel about things like this. You usually don't hear them verbalize these thoughts - they're pretty reserved about it.
Now, your definition of "putting yourself out there" is SO different from what I had expected! I was expecting more things like the bolded statement, i.e. putting yourself out there in a very emotional way, while the rest of them are much easier. I would hesitate from doing many of those things with people I care about because I wouldn't want to burden them, but if you actually appreciate that sort of thing every once and a while, I will definitely keep it in mind, especially with the NFs I know.

When the other person will do none of those things in return, they are in essence saying I am the last person they would go to, that I am unreliable, untrustworthy, and incompetent to meet any of their needs (and everyone does have needs!). They also are implying that I am weak and an obligation, while they are strong and self-sufficient. They may not actually feel that way, but that is how it is perceived. This is worsened especially when criticisms and corrections are voiced more openly than feelings of love or appreciation.
Oh, okay. Yeah, I never mean it like that. It's usually a selfish reaction for me, and I never mean to imply anything with it. But thank you for telling me.

For me, I think finding an area where the person actually does trust and value my competence and then seeking help in that area (whether it is doing a favour, trusting me with a job without overseeing or advising, pursuing a skill that I have, asking for help or advice even in a small way) would all go a long ways to me believing that they trust and respect me.
That's how I am, too.

I think your assessment here was really good.
Seconded. Thumbs up. :nice:
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
You and the others writing have been a huge help to me both in understanding your thinking and also in verbalizing mine. The reason NFs may sometimes wish you to turn to them for comfort is because they are truly confused about what is going on with you in your head and they just want to know. Visible emotions are the only thing they can think of to confirm their guesses in the absence of verbalized information.

I've noticed a pattern with my ESTJ that when something has embarrassed him or he feels guilty/unsettled/anxious/uncertain in some way, he needs to be alone. It would have been so much easier if he had just said that! Without it, then the NF starts wildly imagining terrible things and becomes worried about the relationship etc. They then become emotional and won't give the STJ enough space which increases the stress the XSTJ is already feeling. This prompts a stronger reaction in the STJ, which starts the cyle over but with greater extremes.

NFs also really need to feel helpful and wanted. That is difficult when interacting with a type who likes to feel independent and competent on their own and who don't verbalize much of their thoughts or show their vulnerabilities. NFs long to be burdened with your problems and to do nice things for you. It means you trust us. You think you're being nice by not bothering us but we really really want to do something for you and we just think you don't believe we are competent enough (again resulting in unwelcome emotional displays). Some of the things we do that you find annoying are actually precisely what would make us very happy and more independent people if you did them around us. (Don't panic, I'm not talking about sappy emoting). It's like we cannot venture out until we feel that our home base is established and secure. So some of the time when you wish we'd get on with solving our own problems and getting our own stuff done, we can't until we have enough information and reassurance that things are fine with the important people to us.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
We have discussed in another thread how ESTJs feel horrible amounts of worry about undecided future events/decisions which they cannot control or feel properly prepared for. NFs on the other hand feel horrible amounts of worry about unknown emotional situations that could surprise them because they cannot properly prepare for them. Just as you want to know in a work situation what is expected of you and how you are doing, NFs want to know in a personal situation how they can best fulfill their duties and what you think of their performance.

The reluctance to "burden" an NF with your problems actually alleviates their problems considerably. You are giving the NF more information about your state of mind, which allows them to figure out a course of action that will be appropriate to both of you. This in turn benefits you, because it eliminates you responding to their unplanned emotional improvising. They feel very put on the spot when they have to improvise like that. Like you, they want to be good at what they do. Being treated coldly or patronizingly for being oversensitive and overemotional when they haven't been given enough information to work with is the equivalent of a boss yelling at you in front of your co-workers when s/he has refused to give you any guidelines for what he expects even when you have asked and have tried your best.
 
Last edited:

NewEra

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
3,104
MBTI Type
I
^^That's very interesting, fidelia. I never knew that, it is helpful.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
It never occurred to me that the STJs didn't realize that. This is another reason why NFs react emotionally. They give you a lot of credit for being efficient, planning ahead and knowing what you are doing. Therefore they think you are purposefully withholding information (to keep them uncertain or at a disadvantage) and then you are scornful of or indifferent to the resulting emotion. As a result, they get alternatingly mean to know if you even care about them or not and sad when there's no response and they "realize" you don't. You feel that your presence and reliability should be an obvious sign of love for them, but it isn't felt as being enough. Eventually you throw up your hands and wonder what this crazy, emotional person wants anyway and continue on with your day. (I'm not saying all interactions go this way, but when they go unpleasantly, this is a big factor in why they do.)

While I did figure some of this out earlier, you people have given me some more tools to sort out my STJ interactions and make sense of them. For the most part, more information on both sides=happier people on both sides, often with only slight modifications in what they are doing.
 

Amira

New member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
199
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Those last two posts are very enlightening, Fidelia. I think I understand some more things about certain people now. :)
 
Top