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[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

Frank

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Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
689
I suppose it's possible. However, being an ESTJ with an INTP dad and an INFJ mom, I certainly wasn't raised in as structured an environment as some. I think I created the structure for myself. (For example, when I was a little kid, if I did something bad, my parents hardly had to discipline me at all (except to say "I'm disappointed in you") before I would feel terrible and apologize and not do it again.) But, of course, everything changes when you grow up in an effed-up household with an abusive parent.

I will say, though, based on what little I know about ESTPs, that I relate to what they do a WHOLE lot. If I didn't put so much emphasis on authority, and if I had the guts to stick it to the man whenever I felt so inclined, I might act like an ESTP. So, I suppose, hypothetically, if I were raised in an environment where everyone questioned authority, I would disrespect it too (and, in so doing, follow authority by questioning a different authority, if you understand what I mean), and if my peers/family weren't organized, I wouldn't be organized either. The behaviors of ESTJs are REALLY shaped by the people around them,* and that can't be emphasized enough.
That was a very interesting profile/question! Thank you for asking. I think that was the first question I've had from an ESTP. :)


*which is why, in my opinion, ESTJs are such an incredibly diverse group of people, compared with other types.

Why is this so? I know it is completely stereotypical of the supposed type differences to not get this but I am curious as to the motivation behind the bolded portion. Other than that I like the style. WTF is it with you guys and authority?
 

T-Guy

New member
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
43
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Oh of course...Americans don't spell "behaviour" with a "u". Good observation MD.

And yes, I too want to know what you mean by "The behaviors of ESTJs are REALLY shaped by the people around them,* and that can't be emphasized enough."
 

Giggly

No moss growing on me
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
9,661
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iSFj
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2
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I don't think I know any ESTJs irl. I wish I knew some. They seem like a really interesting type.

By the way, I've heard that the behavior of all Guardian types (SJs) are shaped by the people around them. That makes even more sense to me in regards to SFJs, actually, but I guess as a group that's true. That's from the mouth of Keirsey's son himself, btw.

I think this is true for the most part. I'm ISFj (baby j) and most of the people I know irl are SJs and SPs.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
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ESTJ
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sp/so
Why is this so? I know it is completely stereotypical of the supposed type differences to not get this but I am curious as to the motivation behind the bolded portion. Other than that I like the style. WTF is it with you guys and authority?
And yes, I too want to know what you mean by "The behaviors of ESTJs are REALLY shaped by the people around them,* and that can't be emphasized enough."
I meant that in the scheme of things, for ESTJs (and other SJ types, as stellar renegade mentioned so astutely), the influence/rules of peers and family matters much more than the influence/rules of society overall. I know an ISFJ who has been SO influenced by her mind-bogglingly ESFP group of friends that you could never tell she was SJ on first glance - she doesn't give a $h1t about traditional authority, but she is loyal to her friends to a fault, and would do anything to fit in with them. (I knew an ESTJ in high school that was very similar in HIS group of friends, who were all SP and NF drama geeks.) By saying what I said, I was trying to dispel any preconceived notions about ESTJs - especially those of ESTJs always being status quo and pro-military and everything. Not that I was very clear... sorry about that.
 

stellar renegade

PEST that STEPs on PETS
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
1,446
MBTI Type
ESTP
Yeah, I strongly suspect one of my new friends is an ESFJ, but she definitely seems like an SP at first few glances. She's very silly and sarcastic, does all kinds of risky things with the others and loves to make music and write weird stories. Very free as the wind. She didn't have a very good family life growing up, so I guess her friends more or less became her family.

But at the same time she seems to really care for them, watch out for them, etc, is conservative in many aspects and has that Guardian gloomy and cautious viewpoint on life.
 

matilda

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May 21, 2009
Messages
78
Would you say that ESTJs get jaded often? Friends-wise, environment-wise.

Or is this more of an ESTP trait (Extroversion or Perception)?
 

refinnej30

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Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4
MBTI Type
INFJ
I am married to and ESTJ male. Are they all worker bees? He will spend 6 hours cleaning the kitchen floor, but he frequently has an excuse why he can't go out with us to a movie or just out. He is a major homebody. He makes up his mind and is inflexible. He will work until he finishes something to perfection and they he watches tv. He is in the military (engineering), worked in drug interdiction and in a prison. He says Steak, Beer and sex make him tick. He's a really great guy, but like I said very inflexible and I am getting to old to tie into knots. As an INFJ :thinking: I am trying to understand him more and not getting my feathers ruffled so easy. Any insights?
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
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sp/so
Would you say that ESTJs get jaded often? Friends-wise, environment-wise.

Or is this more of an ESTP trait (Extroversion or Perception)?
I don't know enough ESTJs to say for certain, but I know from my experience being an ESTJ that I have quite a combination of jadedness and naivete. On the one hand, there's the part of me that's like "That'll never happen. I've never seen it happen, I don't know how it could happen, and therefore there's no hope for it to happen." And then there's the side of me that has these idyllic values - you know, freedom, justice, truth, karma - that don't always exist in the world. But to answer your question fully, if all ESTJs are like me, then yes, they have the potential to be very jaded, in some regards.

I am married to and ESTJ male. Are they all worker bees? He will spend 6 hours cleaning the kitchen floor, but he frequently has an excuse why he can't go out with us to a movie or just out. He is a major homebody. He makes up his mind and is inflexible. He will work until he finishes something to perfection and they he watches tv. He is in the military (engineering), worked in drug interdiction and in a prison. He says Steak, Beer and sex make him tick. He's a really great guy, but like I said very inflexible and I am getting to old to tie into knots. As an INFJ :thinking: I am trying to understand him more and not getting my feathers ruffled so easy. Any insights?
I relate to him a lot. I do the same thing - working for hours and then sitting at the TV to relax. I think part of the issue, with regard to him not wanting to go out, is that he wasn't warned in advance. Since he's so into his routine of staying at home all the time, going out seems like an event, and he needs a little time to mentally prepare for it. Try scheduling an evening out (a day, or a few days) in advance. "Wanna go to a movie tomorrow?" He should respond well to that. With regard to the sex, beer and steak thing... well, that's just proof of what I said about ESTJs being a diverse bunch. :) I don't relate to that at all, but then again, I'm not from a sex-beer-steak culture... and I'm not a guy. :smile: But I digress. Yeah, I think talking to him about the possibility of, in the future, making time to go out, might lead to a better response from him... that is, unless you've tried that already.
 

T-Guy

New member
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
43
MBTI Type
ESTJ
I am married to and ESTJ male. Are they all worker bees? He will spend 6 hours cleaning the kitchen floor, but he frequently has an excuse why he can't go out with us to a movie or just out. He is a major homebody. He makes up his mind and is inflexible. He will work until he finishes something to perfection and they he watches tv. He is in the military (engineering), worked in drug interdiction and in a prison. He says Steak, Beer and sex make him tick. He's a really great guy, but like I said very inflexible and I am getting to old to tie into knots. As an INFJ :thinking: I am trying to understand him more and not getting my feathers ruffled so easy. Any insights?

You know why that is? because personally, I like to finish whatever I'm doing. If I'm cleaning the kitchen, I will clean it before I rest and take a break. I work hard and I play hard. I can only break when I finish my job. That's how it is for an ESTJ.
 

SubjectA

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Jul 17, 2009
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INTJ
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So is it typical for ESTJs to be hard asses? My dad is an ISTJ, but he has more of an E at work. He expects things to be done on time and right, and God help you if you're lacking either way. He's been known to be quite overbearing at work. He's not a very good teacher, as he gets impatient quickly and starts yelling at his "student" (which I had to put up with for one year while I was learning how to drive with him.) He's made a couple of his workers cry before. He blames it on his job, but I'm not sure. What do you think?
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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May 31, 2009
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INFJ
EJCC, a few posts ago, you said something about ESTJs being very affected by who they spend their time with/their environment. Would you say that ESTJs points of view are shaped by the "normal" within their particular circle of people? Would their behaviour vary depending on those with whom they were spending the most time? Does this mean that their perspective on good and bad behaviour has shifted, or does it mean that they are easily swayed (you wouldn't think that, but...), or do they take on the outlooks of the people they are with at the time? Is this a matter of trying to impress people? Is it a way of adjusting to what is? I'd be curious to hear more of your thoughts on this subject.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
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So is it typical for ESTJs to be hard asses? My dad is an ISTJ, but he has more of an E at work. He expects things to be done on time and right, and God help you if you're lacking either way. He's been known to be quite overbearing at work. He's not a very good teacher, as he gets impatient quickly and starts yelling at his "student" (which I had to put up with for one year while I was learning how to drive with him.) He's made a couple of his workers cry before. He blames it on his job, but I'm not sure. What do you think?
It really depends. For me, it depends on how happy/patient I am. If I'm feeling irritated, and I want something to get done, and someone/something is getting in my way, then yes, I'll probably be a hard-ass. (With regard to the ISTJ you know, if he says it's because of his job, I'm inclined to agree with him. If he hates his job, it makes sense to me that he would be less patient with things not going his way. Of course, I can be like that sometimes even if I was previously in a good mood...)

Not sure if that's true for all ESTJs, though... I'll wait and see if T-guy posts.

EJCC, a few posts ago, you said something about ESTJs being very affected by who they spend their time with/their environment. Would you say that ESTJs points of view are shaped by the "normal" within their particular circle of people? Would their behaviour vary depending on those with whom they were spending the most time? Does this mean that their perspective on good and bad behaviour has shifted, or does it mean that they are easily swayed (you wouldn't think that, but...), or do they take on the outlooks of the people they are with at the time? Is this a matter of trying to impress people? Is it a way of adjusting to what is? I'd be curious to hear more of your thoughts on this subject.
The following rant probably applies to most SJs, not just ESTJs. But I'm not sure.

I think that ESTJs are easily swayed by those whom they're closest to, and/or the people with whom they spend the most time. I would say that it's peer pressure, but I was shaped more by my parents than by my peers, since I was an only child and spent a lot of time with them. Whatever the norms are in that particular group (for some: peers, for me: friends) become the norms for the ESTJ; the unwritten rules in their life and their behavior. If an ESTJ switched groups, and spent a lot of time all of a sudden with a new group, I think they'd start acting differently in a subconscious effort to blend in. I'm not sure if it's a need to impress, as much as it is... instinct? I don't try, consciously, to follow the norms laid down by my peers and family - I just soaked them up like a sponge, and now they're a part of me.

I don't think we're easily swayed by things that aren't considered "normal". However, if the behavior of a newly dominant group is very different from the behavior of the previous group, even if we're resistant at first, we WILL succumb at some point, if we stay in that group for an extended period of time, because we instinctively blend. This applies in other situations, too, and imho, it's the reason why other types here think that we're hypocrites.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
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INFJ
Thank you! That clears up a lot of things for me. I really wondered if everything had just been a sham with my ESTJ because he doesn't seem like an easily swayed person, and yet I saw him change when he was around me from what he had been like, and again when he concluded we wouldn't be together forever and he started hanging around with people who had different values. Several others commented on the morphing and yet it seemed like four years is a long time to try to keep up appearances. Is this something you guys are aware of? Does it bother you, or are you okay with it? Do you see it as an adaptive skill, or more as an involuntary change? I realize now that this is part of why I legitimately was bothered by the friends he sometimes chose, because they did affect how he viewed the world and also how he acted and what he said, over time.
 

T-Guy

New member
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Jan 25, 2009
Messages
43
MBTI Type
ESTJ
It really depends. For me, it depends on how happy/patient I am. If I'm feeling irritated, and I want something to get done, and someone/something is getting in my way, then yes, I'll probably be a hard-ass. (With regard to the ISTJ you know, if he says it's because of his job, I'm inclined to agree with him. If he hates his job, it makes sense to me that he would be less patient with things not going his way. Of course, I can be like that sometimes even if I was previously in a good mood...)

Not sure if that's true for all ESTJs, though... I'll wait and see if T-guy posts.


The following rant probably applies to most SJs, not just ESTJs. But I'm not sure.

I think that ESTJs are easily swayed by those whom they're closest to, and/or the people with whom they spend the most time. I would say that it's peer pressure, but I was shaped more by my parents than by my peers, since I was an only child and spent a lot of time with them. Whatever the norms are in that particular group (for some: peers, for me: friends) become the norms for the ESTJ; the unwritten rules in their life and their behavior. If an ESTJ switched groups, and spent a lot of time all of a sudden with a new group, I think they'd start acting differently in a subconscious effort to blend in. I'm not sure if it's a need to impress, as much as it is... instinct? I don't try, consciously, to follow the norms laid down by my peers and family - I just soaked them up like a sponge, and now they're a part of me.

I don't think we're easily swayed by things that aren't considered "normal". However, if the behavior of a newly dominant group is very different from the behavior of the previous group, even if we're resistant at first, we WILL succumb at some point, if we stay in that group for an extended period of time, because we instinctively blend. This applies in other situations, too, and imho, it's the reason why other types here think that we're hypocrites.

You know what, I can agree in the sense that I do change my behaviour just a little bit depending on the group of people I'm with. I'm not sure if that's only for SJs though...more input from others maybe?
 

T-Guy

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Jan 25, 2009
Messages
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ESTJ
So is it typical for ESTJs to be hard asses? My dad is an ISTJ, but he has more of an E at work. He expects things to be done on time and right, and God help you if you're lacking either way. He's been known to be quite overbearing at work. He's not a very good teacher, as he gets impatient quickly and starts yelling at his "student" (which I had to put up with for one year while I was learning how to drive with him.) He's made a couple of his workers cry before. He blames it on his job, but I'm not sure. What do you think?

I'm a hard ass myself when I'm in a superior position like a supervisor or a manager. It's just hard to control people when you don't have the authority, but that's beside the point. Anyways, when I'm leading a project or teaching people something I expect things to be done my way. I set the deadlines and I want the best outcomes. If I see that you're being lazy or not putting in enough effort, I will get pretty angry with you and demand you to be a better worker.

I suppose mood has an effect on how much I will handle my patience and bitch about a situation because it is human nature get swayed by moods.
 

refinnej30

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Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4
MBTI Type
INFJ
Thanks T-Guy. It's helpful to hear it from another ESTJ male. My hubby and I are opposites in many ways. I tend to plan, make several appointments to complete a project, make a deadline, allow for creative changes and keep at it in small increments until it's done or no longer worth my effort. He will decide what he is going to do and work until it's done and not stop until he is totally finished the way he wants it. That has been a major issue with us. I guess understanding that he is wired that way helps me not to take it personal and adjust accordingly.

Thanks EJCC. I will try scheduling things far enough in advance for him. He likes consistancy (I would call it a rut:BangHead:) and I tend to be inconsistant depending on my moods. I think he would be happy if we had a set schedule he could count on every week and I could incorporate wiggle room to keep me happy. This post has really helped me a lot. My hubby makes so much more sense to me.

THANKS!
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
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ESTJ
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1w9
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sp/so
Thank you! That clears up a lot of things for me. I really wondered if everything had just been a sham with my ESTJ because he doesn't seem like an easily swayed person, and yet I saw him change when he was around me from what he had been like, and again when he concluded we wouldn't be together forever and he started hanging around with people who had different values. Several others commented on the morphing and yet it seemed like four years is a long time to try to keep up appearances. Is this something you guys are aware of? Does it bother you, or are you okay with it? Do you see it as an adaptive skill, or more as an involuntary change? I realize now that this is part of why I legitimately was bothered by the friends he sometimes chose, because they did affect how he viewed the world and also how he acted and what he said, over time.
I guess it feels to me like, well, like something I have to do, sometimes. Being around different groups warrants different behavior. I'm not going to go into a rant about metal bands like Tool and Mastodon when I'm with my fellow church choir members (whose average age is about 65), and I'm not going to talk about knitting with my classmates (unless they're really crafty and artsy, but I digress). So I guess it's an adaptive skill. With regard to how your ESTJ acted, he was treating you differently because the situation had changed. I agree with T-guy, that maybe other types do this too. Is it more obvious with ESTJs? Do other types not do that so dramatically?
I'm usually okay with it, unless, when I return to an older group, I realize that I don't like the way that my behavior has changed. (This has happened to me more than once.) Then, of course, I change back, and try not to let those factors influence me any more.

@T-guy: I kind of rambled there... I didn't mean when you're briefly around people - I meant when you're around a group for a long time (weeks or months), when I/other ESTJs may end up adapting by necessity.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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You know what, I can agree in the sense that I do change my behaviour just a little bit depending on the group of people I'm with. I'm not sure if that's only for SJs though...more input from others maybe?

I could see how someone who uses or is used to using Fe would do this. It is strange that ESTJ does this. I've seen it happen and it is kind of baffling to me.

For how direct ESTJ's are - I think they are some of the most complex personalities out there because while they make decisions very easily and they are very upfront about their viewpoints their inner world is so...enigmatic. I have no clue how you guys make decisions on a personal level. :huh: Because this is where an ESTJ can do the above and contradict a lot of what they previously said or what is known about them. (like fidelia's situation).
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
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sp/so
Thanks T-Guy. It's helpful to hear it from another ESTJ male. My hubby and I are opposites in many ways. I tend to plan, make several appointments to complete a project, make a deadline, allow for creative changes and keep at it in small increments until it's done or no longer worth my effort. He will decide what he is going to do and work until it's done and not stop until he is totally finished the way he wants it. That has been a major issue with us. I guess understanding that he is wired that way helps me not to take it personal and adjust accordingly.

Thanks EJCC. I will try scheduling things far enough in advance for him. He likes consistancy (I would call it a rut:BangHead:) and I tend to be inconsistant depending on my moods. I think he would be happy if we had a set schedule he could count on every week and I could incorporate wiggle room to keep me happy. This post has really helped me a lot. My hubby makes so much more sense to me.

THANKS!
No problem :) :hug: I'm glad both of our posts helped. I'll be honest - when I wrote my response and T-guy wrote a totally different one, I was like "Oh god! Mixed messages! :eek: Crap! :doh:"

I could see how someone who uses or is used to using Fe would do this. It is strange that ESTJ does this. I've seen it happen and it is kind of baffling to me.
What other types do that? I feel like, of all the types, NTs are the least likely to do that - you guys are so independent of peer pressure, especially compared to SJs - but it's one of those things that, you know, you feel like everyone does, until someone tells you that it's weird.

For how direct ESTJ's are - I think they are some of the most complex personalities out there because while they make decisions very easily and they are very upfront about their viewpoints their inner world is so...enigmatic. I have no clue how you guys make decisions on a personal level. :huh: Because this is where an ESTJ can do the above and contradict a lot of what they previously said or what is known about them. (like fidelia's situation).
I wish I could say more about how we make decisions, but it's one of those things that's so... I dunno. I'm not sure if I spend enough time in my own head to analyze it, you know? I deal with events when they happen, and I don't think about my decision-making process analytically. Even though I've done (comparatively speaking) a lot of introspection because of my MBTI obsession, that seems a bit too deep for me (I dunno if I'm capable of it...). Maybe I'll get back to you on that one?
 
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