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[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

SD45T-2

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Feb 18, 2012
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Do you like orange marmalade? I'm fond of Dundee, but I haven't been able to find it in stores lately. :( All the other brands I've tried so far have been too sweet for my taste.

And now for something completely different:


No kids yet, so I'm answering in theory --
I think I would be a fun but honest parent. I wouldn't lie to my kids. I would treat them with respect, and I would never, ever answer their questions with "because I said so" or "because I'm your mother". I would take the time to explain things to them, to answer their questions, to be there when they need them.

I also get the feeling that I would be more of a disciplinarian, than whoever ends up being the father. :laugh:
Hopefully the father will be supportive and not undermine your efforts. You seem like you'd be a pretty cool mom. :)

If I ever have kids I'm not going to give them common names. But I'd give them real names, not crap like ESPN, Infiniti, etc. I hate it when people do that to their kids. :dry:

Anyway, if I had a daughter I'd want to name her something interesting like Dervorgilla, after queen Dervorgilla, who was the wife of king Tighernan O'Rourke back in the 1100s. I could call her Dervo for short. :D Or maybe that would be a little too special. And I'm not even Irish. :unsure: Hmm...I guess I'd have to talk it over with my wife.
 

Thinkist

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Not sure this has been asked before, but here goes:

What type(s) is an ESTJ most likely to clash with? I tend to clash with ESTJs more than any other type on almost every level, and because of this I seem to have developed a sort of disturbed paranoia of them, especially when they're in a higher position than me. Or maybe it's just those ESTJs who have a strong J preference and haven't really honed in on developing their Ne/Fi usage. Although then again, I could clash with Fi as well. Once I was working with a former ESTJ teacher, who was projecting Fi-ish values such as integrity and respect onto me. The problem is that I got extremely disturbed by such a projection, as my Ti/Fe sees integrity very differently. Then of course there was the cold, hard "suck it up and do it" approach that Te delivers... that I just cannot take (I need a more motivational Fe approach instead).
 

Southern Kross

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Hey EJCC! I have more questions, this time in regards to ESTJs and friendships - in part related to my sister who is having a hard time with her's. I like to know these answers from your perspective and to see how much you relate to my sister's situation. :)

1) I know extroverts like to have a large group of friends, but is it important to you to have a very strong bond with one particular friend? My sister seems to have these close friendships, where she prioritises that friend entirely - only for them to fail to return the favour.

2) Do you tend to form good friendships with a particular type? My sister seems to be very much drawn to ESFPs, and I also wondered what is it about this type that would appeal so much to ESTJs?

3) Are you fiercely loyal to your friends? If so, do you regularly get burned or under-appreciated in friendships in spite of your loyalty and dedication?

4) Does the way friends and SOs treat you ever affect the way you view yourself? (ie. If it appeared you were consistently treated badly would you blame them or yourself?) It's just that my sister does this a lot when people she is very close to treat her badly. I find it strange (and upsetting) because in ever other situation she doesn't internalise this - she just assumes they're an idiot or a jerk and it has nothing to do with her. Do you think it is different with people you make yourself vulnerable with?

5) Slightly unrelated but: how do you like to be comforted? What helps you to get through something upsetting and what do you find unproductive? Do you prefer sympathetic listening, having the person analyse the situation (perhaps from another perspective), being offered advice, being reminded of your positive attributes, trying to (sensitively) cheer you up, distracting you from the negative things etc? - and if it's all or many of these, which are the most significant.

PS. I do so like your present avatar!
 

SD45T-2

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Not sure this has been asked before, but here goes:

What type(s) is an ESTJ most likely to clash with? I tend to clash with ESTJs more than any other type on almost every level, and because of this I seem to have developed a sort of disturbed paranoia of them, especially when they're in a higher position than me. Or maybe it's just those ESTJs who have a strong J preference and haven't really honed in on developing their Ne/Fi usage. Although then again, I could clash with Fi as well. Once I was working with a former ESTJ teacher, who was projecting Fi-ish values such as integrity and respect onto me. The problem is that I got extremely disturbed by such a projection, as my Ti/Fe sees integrity very differently. Then of course there was the cold, hard "suck it up and do it" approach that Te delivers... that I just cannot take (I need a more motivational Fe approach instead).
I can't think of any one type that causes trouble for me, but I haven't spent a great deal of time working closely with people of every single type.

EJCC seems to be busy, so I'll have a go at it.

Hey EJCC! I have more questions, this time in regards to ESTJs and friendships - in part related to my sister who is having a hard time with her's. I like to know these answers from your perspective and to see how much you relate to my sister's situation. :)

1) I know extroverts like to have a large group of friends, but is it important to you to have a very strong bond with one particular friend? My sister seems to have these close friendships, where she prioritises that friend entirely - only for them to fail to return the favour.
Not exactly. I'm pretty selective about friends, and I usually don't rush into things.

2) Do you tend to form good friendships with a particular type? My sister seems to be very much drawn to ESFPs, and I also wondered what is it about this type that would appeal so much to ESTJs?
My best friend is an ISTJ 5w6. He's old enough to be my dad, but aside from that we're pretty similar. Most of the rest of my friends are SPs.

As far as ESFPs, I'm guessing it's because they're entertaining. :D

3) Are you fiercely loyal to your friends? If so, do you regularly get burned or under-appreciated in friendships in spite of your loyalty and dedication?
I'm pretty loyal. There are times when people when people I know don't respect me or appreciate something I did, but those usually aren't people I'm particularly close to.

4) Does the way friends and SOs treat you ever affect the way you view yourself? (ie. If it appeared you were consistently treated badly would you blame them or yourself?)
Probably both. I'd be resentful towards them and agonize over how I could have handled the situation better. Typical type 1 stuff.

It's just that my sister does this a lot when people she is very close to treat her badly. I find it strange (and upsetting) because in ever other situation she doesn't internalise this - she just assumes they're an idiot or a jerk and it has nothing to do with her. Do you think it is different with people you make yourself vulnerable with?
Yes. It's easy for me to dismiss some Joe Sixpack as an idiot. If it's someone I'm close to (or even just related to), that tends to complicate things.

5) Slightly unrelated but: how do you like to be comforted? What helps you to get through something upsetting and what do you find unproductive?
Give me some money. :newwink:

Do you prefer sympathetic listening, having the person analyse the situation (perhaps from another perspective), being offered advice, being reminded of your positive attributes, trying to (sensitively) cheer you up, distracting you from the negative things etc? - and if it's all or many of these, which are the most significant.
Probably listening and maybe offering their perspective.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
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Finally back to the thread! Sorry about this, guys -- I limited my TypeC time for Lent, which is why I haven't been around here for a while. (I am breaking my Lenten resolution at this very moment!)
Do you like orange marmalade? I'm fond of Dundee, but I haven't been able to find it in stores lately. :( All the other brands I've tried so far have been too sweet for my taste.
Haven't tried it. :shrug:
If I ever have kids I'm not going to give them common names. But I'd give them real names, not crap like ESPN, Infiniti, etc. I hate it when people do that to their kids. :dry:

Anyway, if I had a daughter I'd want to name her something interesting like Dervorgilla, after queen Dervorgilla, who was the wife of king Tighernan O'Rourke back in the 1100s. I could call her Dervo for short. :D Or maybe that would be a little too special. And I'm not even Irish. :unsure: Hmm...I guess I'd have to talk it over with my wife.
:laugh: Lol at the progression in that last paragraph!

As much as I respect/admire the desire to give your kid a really interesting and meaningful name, I'd warn you about how easy it will be for people to pronounce that name. Speaking as someone with a difficult-to-pronounce last name, I can tell you that it's pretty frustrating, and I can only imagine how much more frustrating it would be if my first name were hard to pronounce too.
Not sure this has been asked before, but here goes:

What type(s) is an ESTJ most likely to clash with? I tend to clash with ESTJs more than any other type on almost every level, and because of this I seem to have developed a sort of disturbed paranoia of them, especially when they're in a higher position than me. Or maybe it's just those ESTJs who have a strong J preference and haven't really honed in on developing their Ne/Fi usage. Although then again, I could clash with Fi as well. Once I was working with a former ESTJ teacher, who was projecting Fi-ish values such as integrity and respect onto me. The problem is that I got extremely disturbed by such a projection, as my Ti/Fe sees integrity very differently. Then of course there was the cold, hard "suck it up and do it" approach that Te delivers... that I just cannot take (I need a more motivational Fe approach instead).
From my experience with MBTI, there's so much variety in every type that it's pretty much impossible to make rules about who gets along better/worse with whom. For example, I've read that ESTJs and INFJs are very incompatible, but for various reasons (including the fact that my mom is an INFJ), I tend to get along better with ENFJs and INFJs than almost any other types, in terms of communicating with them and understanding them. So I'm inclined to say that your lack of compatibility with the ESTJs you know has less to do with ESTJs in general, and more to do with the ones you've met. (Although I will say that the "suck it up and do it" philosophy is very, very common with ESTJs -- but I'd also say that many ESTJs, including myself, both give to others and require from others a dose of calm Fe-style motivation every once and a while.)

I'm curious about the part I bolded, though. Could you give a few more details?

Also: how do you feel about other SJs? The things you mentioned about ESTJs seem very common about other SJs too -- and to a degree, INFJs, i.e. in their conceptions of integrity and respect (which I find to be similar to mine, which is why I tend to get along so well with INFJs).
Hey EJCC! I have more questions, this time in regards to ESTJs and friendships - in part related to my sister who is having a hard time with her's. I like to know these answers from your perspective and to see how much you relate to my sister's situation. :)

1) I know extroverts like to have a large group of friends, but is it important to you to have a very strong bond with one particular friend? My sister seems to have these close friendships, where she prioritises that friend entirely - only for them to fail to return the favour.
I don't have one best friend, and I tend to not prioritize any one friend over all others at any given moment; I have maybe five or six very close friends, who I prioritize equally above all my other friends. And part of the reason why they made it into that very small circle of friends is that they prioritize me the same way; otherwise, I would have lowered them on the friend scale, because friendships are supposed to be reciprocal.
2) Do you tend to form good friendships with a particular type? My sister seems to be very much drawn to ESFPs, and I also wondered what is it about this type that would appeal so much to ESTJs?
I haven't had a lot of good luck with ESFPs -- mostly because I've been so put off by the initial vibe they give off to me when I first meet them. It's a personal problem that I have, that isn't type-specific, as far as I know -- i.e. that when I meet someone and they are very obviously "performing" for me, it puts me off, because I want to meet them, and not a showy image of themselves that they give to other people. I also feel like that dynamic -- of talking to someone who is trying to perform for you when you aren't doing the same thing to them -- is unequal and therefore awkward for me. So needless to say, I am wary of "performers".

This isn't to say that all ESFPs are like this, but instead, I mean that I haven't really met the right ESFPs for me.

In terms of types I get along with well... The types of my very closest friends (i.e. the ones in my close circle) are ENFP, ENFJ, INFJ, INTJ and ENFJ. So... lots of NFJs, because, like I said before, I feel like I just "get" them; I attribute some of that to the fact that we share many of our values -- civility, respect, loyalty -- and that we communicate very well as long as we care about each other enough that the NFJ isn't afraid to be honest with me. (I like ENFJs, especially, because they are as good at communicating their ideas as I am, and as ready to share them as I am, so we can have very good conversations at the drop of a hat; whereas, for example, the INTJ and some INFJs that I'm friends with have a lot of trouble communicating their ideas with me, and their lack of ability/need to share those ideas can bring conversation to a halt.)
3) Are you fiercely loyal to your friends? If so, do you regularly get burned or under-appreciated in friendships in spite of your loyalty and dedication?
I am VERY VERY loyal to my closest friends -- but like I said before, they only become my close friends when I know, deep down, that they care enough about me to do the same thing in my situation. In fact, if one party is more likely to get burned in one of those situations, it's probably the other party, due to my not being there for them -- because I am not extremely easily attached to people (because I don't want to be burned, in the way that you described).
4) Does the way friends and SOs treat you ever affect the way you view yourself? (ie. If it appeared you were consistently treated badly would you blame them or yourself?) It's just that my sister does this a lot when people she is very close to treat her badly. I find it strange (and upsetting) because in ever other situation she doesn't internalise this - she just assumes they're an idiot or a jerk and it has nothing to do with her. Do you think it is different with people you make yourself vulnerable with?
There are some areas where even if a total stranger treats me a particular way, it will affect my self-image. (e.g. if someone I meet for the first time sees me as untrustworthy or disrespectful, or sees me some other way that is contrary to the way that I want to be seen.) But it definitely hurts the most with close friends. Although I should specify: if they treat me poorly and I feel like it's justified, I will blame myself. But if they treat me poorly and I feel like I did nothing wrong, then I don't blame myself. And this is the case with literally everyone I encounter, whether I'm close with them or not at all -- although because I give myself more responsibilities with close friends, I'll feel worse if they treat me poorly for something I did, because my standards were higher for myself in that situation.

(This all might be specific to type 1?)
5) Slightly unrelated but: how do you like to be comforted? What helps you to get through something upsetting and what do you find unproductive? Do you prefer sympathetic listening, having the person analyse the situation (perhaps from another perspective), being offered advice, being reminded of your positive attributes, trying to (sensitively) cheer you up, distracting you from the negative things etc? - and if it's all or many of these, which are the most significant.
It depends on the situation. If you asked me "How was your day?" and I had a really bad day, and I told you what happened, I'm probably going to prefer sympathetic listening. But if I come to you of my own accord, unprompted, with a bad story, then I'm probably going to want solutions in addition to sympathy -- because I don't like venting to people, because I don't like putting them in that helpless situation. (Also, if I don't want solutions and just want comforting, you'll probably know because I'll make it clear exactly what I did to try and get a solution, or what I'm going to do later to fix the problem. Whereas, I'll say "I don't know what to do" or other things that suggest that I don't feel in control of my situation, a solution would definitely be in order, sometimes with a morale booster; e.g. "You're very good at these things; you've made it through similar things in the past and you can make it through them again". Or just, like you said, another viewpoint: "Have you tried this? That would solve all your issues quicker and less painfully.")

PS. I do so like your present avatar!
Thanks! :)
 

Southern Kross

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Finally back to the thread! Sorry about this, guys -- I limited my TypeC time for Lent, which is why I haven't been around here for a while. (I am breaking my Lenten resolution at this very moment!)
Oops. I feel bad now for provoking you to break it. You've done very well so far though. :yes:

Don't answer me until after Lent. :)

But it definitely hurts the most with close friends. Although I should specify: if they treat me poorly and I feel like it's justified, I will blame myself. But if they treat me poorly and I feel like I did nothing wrong, then I don't blame myself. And this is the case with literally everyone I encounter, whether I'm close with them or not at all -- although because I give myself more responsibilities with close friends, I'll feel worse if they treat me poorly for something I did, because my standards were higher for myself in that situation.
(This all might be specific to type 1?)
But what about when you're confused whether you're in the right or wrong? - times when things aren't so clear to you and you begin to doubt yourself.

Perhaps someone treats you in a certain way and it seems like maybe it fits in a pattern (which may be imagined or real) of how some other people have treated you in the past; and this then makes you wonder if you are, in fact, the cause of the problem.

Do you also think that you might sometimes blame yourself unfairly because your standards for your own behaviour are too high? Do you ever form expectations for yourself that relate to things that are actually beyond you control? Or would you have difficulty acknowledging that even if you did? ;)

It depends on the situation. If you asked me "How was your day?" and I had a really bad day, and I told you what happened, I'm probably going to prefer sympathetic listening. But if I come to you of my own accord, unprompted, with a bad story, then I'm probably going to want solutions in addition to sympathy -- because I don't like venting to people, because I don't like putting them in that helpless situation. (Also, if I don't want solutions and just want comforting, you'll probably know because I'll make it clear exactly what I did to try and get a solution, or what I'm going to do later to fix the problem. Whereas, I'll say "I don't know what to do" or something similar if I want a solution.)
Interesting. So would you say, even if it sounds like you are venting about a situation (say, about someone that irritates you) you are really just trying to invite others to help figure out what is going on and why?
 

SD45T-2

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Finally back to the thread! Sorry about this, guys -- I limited my TypeC time for Lent, which is why I haven't been around here for a while. (I am breaking my Lenten resolution at this very moment!)
:ohmy:

Haven't tried it. :shrug:
But I thought you were a food enthusiast! ;)

:laugh: Lol at the progression in that last paragraph!

As much as I respect/admire the desire to give your kid a really interesting and meaningful name, I'd warn you about how easy it will be for people to pronounce that name. Speaking as someone with a difficult-to-pronounce last name, I can tell you that it's pretty frustrating, and I can only imagine how much more frustrating it would be if my first name were hard to pronounce too.
That's true. My last name is unusual and frequently mispronounced/misspelled. It's not one of those Polish names with no vowels, it's actually English. My dad's side of the family originated in Oxfordshire.
 

Istbkleta

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Wow! Let me just say: "Wow! Who would've thought ESTJs are so popular." :)

Well, here is mine: The ESTJs I know are very reluctant to try new things and I think they feel kind of lost and frustrated with such scenarios. But this is boring to me and boring=death.

What are the best ways to manipulate an ESTJ into trying new things?

I would specifically like to clarify: "new" things includes illegal/immoral behavior. I believe this to be a relevant piece of information you need when answering the question.



:banana: :cheers:

Let me know if you have more questions! :)

Amazing! You sound so Fe (in a very "straight-to-point" / "get-things-done" kind of way).

Did you learn this from your mom? Also, is "being-Fe" an obligation that needs to be fulfilled?
 

sculpting

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:smile: Hello Miss EJCC! :smile:

I recently found out my (fantastically awesome!) estj boss was diagnosed with Lupus. Our worksplace is really awesome and supportive to her, but are there things that I could do to be supportive for her as well on an individual level?
 

RaptorWizard

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ESTJ at least to me seems like a very powerful personality, the big boss nobody wants to mess with!
 

Mia.

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2) Do you tend to form good friendships with a particular type? My sister seems to be very much drawn to ESFPs, and I also wondered what is it about this type that would appeal so much to ESTJs?

I haven't had a lot of good luck with ESFPs -- mostly because I've been so put off by the initial vibe they give off to me when I first meet them. It's a personal problem that I have, that isn't type-specific, as far as I know

ESFP is my ESTJ's self-proclaimed favorite type. His best friend of 13 years is an ESFP male. He dated an ESFP before me and was head over heels. His favorite of his 60+ cousins is the ESFP. He gravitates to them wherever he finds them. His explanation: they are Extraverted (so not socially awkward and spacey) Sensors (so not “weird” – he "can’t stand N people who are weird”) Feelers (he appreciates the balance this provides) and Perceivers (which allows him to usually run the show.) There’s just a natural affinity there.
 

EJCC

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His explanation: they are Extraverted (so not socially awkward and spacey)
I get this to a degree. When introverts are very introverted, sometimes it feels like it isn't worth the effort to try to draw them out; or at least, it feels like it isn't my job to do that, so I shouldn't have to do it. This isn't to say that I give up on them completely; I continue to be friendly with them when I see them, but I don't work on them too hard, I guess.
Sensors (so not “weird” – he "can’t stand N people who are weird”)
:thelook: ...Wow. If you don't mind my saying so, that is VERY stereotypically closed-minded-ESTJ. That's the sort of comment that makes ESTJs so disliked on this forum. This isn't to say that your ESTJ is a bad or annoying person, though, just to be clear -- I'm just referring to the comment and not the man.
Feelers (he appreciates the balance this provides)
I wholeheartedly agree with this. :) I am very drawn to Feelers for the same reason.
and Perceivers (which allows him to usually run the show.)
Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure how Perceiver = Passive. I mean, one of my best friends in the world is an ENFP, and she is actually a much more dominant personality than I am. Although I think what we like about each other is that
1) Both of us are generally seen as either "intense" or "intimidating" or both, which can turn people off, but we both really like people who act similarly to that (or at least who aren't intimidated by our strong personalities); and
2) We can trust each other to take the reins in, e.g., logistical situations, because both of us are prone to take those roles without realizing how much of a drain they'll be. (She's a 2w3 and I'm a 1w2... friggin' hospitable 2 wing. :doh:)

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13880]Istbkleta[/MENTION], I will reply to you when I have more time! :)
 

Mia.

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I get this to a degree. When introverts are very introverted, sometimes it feels like it isn't worth the effort to try to draw them out; or at least, it feels like it isn't my job to do that, so I shouldn't have to do it. This isn't to say that I give up on them completely; I continue to be friendly with them when I see them, but I don't work on them too hard, I guess.

Yep, I get it.

:thelook: ...Wow. If you don't mind my saying so, that is VERY stereotypically closed-minded-ESTJ. That's the sort of comment that makes ESTJs so disliked on this forum. This isn't to say that your ESTJ is a bad or annoying person, though, just to be clear -- I'm just referring to the comment and not the man.

He’s not bad or annoying at all, no, just has his preferences. He has a hard time relating to and understanding Ns, and he sees them as out of touch with reality, not practical, and the purveyors of chaos and off-the-wall ideas and notions. He says he has more respect for NJs because at least they have the decency to keep their N largely to themselves, can blend in with more normal people, and keep a more orderly environment. :tongue: (Although he seems to get along fine with NFJs, NTJs don't seem to get along with him. At all.)

I wholeheartedly agree with this. :) I am very drawn to Feelers for the same reason.

Yes. He knows we are the ones who know he’s secretly really soft and snuggly on the inside.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure how Perceiver = Passive. I mean, one of my best friends in the world is an ENFP, and she is actually a much more dominant personality than I am. Although I think what we like about each other is that
1) Both of us are generally seen as either "intense" or "intimidating" or both, which can turn people off, but we both really like people who act similarly to that (or at least who aren't intimidated by our strong personalities); and
2) We can trust each other to take the reins in, e.g., logistical situations, because both of us are prone to take those roles without realizing how much of a drain they'll be. (She's a 2w3 and I'm a 1w2... friggin' hospitable 2 wing. :doh:)

I wouldn’t characterize Ps as passive, but I think they have more flexibility, and thus will often flex to fit the J, especially when the J has very strong notions and the P is an FP, which would be naturally more concerned with pleasing the other. Also, with the exception of STPs, all other Ps are role-informers under Keirsey’s model, which I think has some usefulness. Role-informers often prefer to give feedback rather than directives - feedback is not passivity. I think most Ps make great leaders, and many don’t mind assuming that role, but will often defer to a “natural leader” personality as long as they find the “leader” acceptable/agreeable, only balking or stepping in if it becomes disagreeable to them for some reason.

1) Both of us are generally seen as either "intense" or "intimidating" or both, which can turn people off, but we both really like people who act similarly to that (or at least who aren't intimidated by our strong personalities); and

Yes, he loves this. He and his ESFP cousin for example, outright talk over each other constantly. It will go on and on, with neither one breaking and both of them literally talking at the same time, until someone breaks and relents and lets the other talk without the other talking over them (only to interrupt very soon after, of course.) She is also a very intense personality, so he sees it as a fun game to see if he can out-talk her and make her relent. Both of them are of the variety that a lot of people have trouble handling them in interactions.
 

Mia.

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If these kinds of questions are allowed, what is your opinion on this heart-breaking video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDbuZM-MN4s&feature=related

EJCC will likely have a better answer. But mine is that the Maury show is not only a badly done cartoon, but a complete waste of time.

In the event you're not familiar with American television, that show is meant to be over-the-top and shocking and in many ways is not real. I'm sorry you cried over it - I understand being upset about things that are clearly wrong. However, I wouldn't let that show be the example that leads to those feelings.
 

Ukon

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sp/sx
EJCC will likely have a better answer. But mine is that the Maury show is not only a badly done cartoon, but a complete waste of time.

In the event you're not familiar with American television, that show is meant to be over-the-top and shocking and in many ways is not real. I'm sorry you cried over it - I understand being upset about things that are clearly wrong. However, I wouldn't let that show be the example that leads to those feelings.

I apologize for my lack of knowing that. I thought it was like Oprah. :shock:

Hmm, I guess I should ask something good, then... Which MBTI types appeal to you most for a relationship, and why?
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Now that Lent is over and my self-imposed ban has expired... I can finally answer all these questions! :yay:

But I thought you were a food enthusiast! ;)
Hey now! To be fair, I think it's a regional thing; if you gave me a container of orange marmalade, I wouldn't know what to do with it. I don't see it in restaurants, I don't know anyone who uses it or cooks with it. But give it to me in something you made and I'll definitely eat it. :)
Wow! Let me just say: "Wow! Who would've thought ESTJs are so popular." :)
Of course we are! That's why the xNxPs think we control the world. ;)
Well, here is mine: The ESTJs I know are very reluctant to try new things and I think they feel kind of lost and frustrated with such scenarios. But this is boring to me and boring=death.

What are the best ways to manipulate an ESTJ into trying new things?
Hmm. :thinking: The ESTJs you know may be less adventurous than me, but these are the only reasons why I wouldn't want to do something new:
1) It's physically or mentally dangerous, or similar to things that I consider physically or mentally dangerous;
2) It could embarrass me around other people;
3) I had my heart set on doing something else at whatever time you suggested, or I was mentally prepared for a different activity and unable to change mindsets so quickly; or
4) It's similar to something I tried already and didn't like.
So if the ESTJs you know are similar, you can figure out which of those reasons are standing in the way (which would probably be fairly easy since ESTJs are so honest; asking a stubborn INFJ or INTJ would get you nowhere!), and you can convince them that they should do it anyway; e.g. "If you have your heart set on doing something else tomorrow, we can try next Wednesday" or "I've done it before and it isn't dangerous" or "It might be scary at first but you get good at it really quickly and you'll leave thinking it's one of the coolest things you've ever done".
I would specifically like to clarify: "new" things includes illegal/immoral behavior. I believe this to be a relevant piece of information you need when answering the question.
It's only relevant information if I have additional information. Even the most morally upright ESTJs can change their tune if you give them a good enough reason to break the law -- and/or if you swear to them that they won't get caught and the pros will outweigh the cons.

Just how illegal/immoral are you talking? :thelook:
Amazing! You sound so Fe (in a very "straight-to-point" / "get-things-done" kind of way).

Did you learn this from your mom? Also, is "being-Fe" an obligation that needs to be fulfilled?
Wow, I'm impressed! Yeah, that's exactly where I learned it, and that's exactly why I do it. Obviously it isn't actually Fe; it's enthusiastic Ne with Fi civility and 1w2 dutiful helpfulness, combined to make something similar to, but inferior to, Fe. I wish I were better at it, because sometimes I try desperately to muster up that Fe-style sympathetic response and I just sound awkward instead.

I should also add that I'm naturally a positive, look-on-the-bright-side person. It's one of my standard coping mechanisms in every aspect of life -- acknowledging the bad things, but focusing on the good things, and generally thinking that the good things balance out the bad. So my attitude gives me an advantage in mimicking Fe, because even if I can't Fe-style comfort people, I can say "hey, look on the bright side" about almost everything, which, even when it doesn't help, is entertaining and good for easing tension :)
:smile: Hello Miss EJCC! :smile:

I recently found out my (fantastically awesome!) estj boss was diagnosed with Lupus. Our worksplace is really awesome and supportive to her, but are there things that I could do to be supportive for her as well on an individual level?
Honestly, being there for her is probably the absolute best thing you could do, i.e. being consistent, showing that you remember (and care about) what's going on in her life, and generally being a good friend. But I doubt that I need to tell you any of that :) because you're good at those things already, I think.
Oops. I feel bad now for provoking you to break it. You've done very well so far though. :yes:

Don't answer me until after Lent. :)
Mission accomplished! Now I can answer you :)
But what about when you're confused whether you're in the right or wrong? - times when things aren't so clear to you and you begin to doubt yourself.

Perhaps someone treats you in a certain way and it seems like maybe it fits in a pattern (which may be imagined or real) of how some other people have treated you in the past; and this then makes you wonder if you are, in fact, the cause of the problem.
Yeah, that definitely does happen, and the thought process is exactly the same. Generally, because I hate unresolved things and I love having answers, I'll think about it and introspect like crazy until I can decide with a fair degree of certainty whether I was in the right, or wrong -- or if neither, what I can do better next time, and what I should do in the meantime. In other words... diagnosis, then treatment regimen.

Also -- if I can't figure it out myself, then I find a close friend or family member to talk it out with.
Do you also think that you might sometimes blame yourself unfairly because your standards for your own behaviour are too high? Do you ever form expectations for yourself that relate to things that are actually beyond you control? Or would you have difficulty acknowledging that even if you did? ;)
:laugh: Yeah, I definitely recognize that I do that, i.e. the blaming you mention in the first question. I have VERY high standards for myself, and for the most part there's nothing I can do about it, because I have a hard time convincing myself that I can't meet those standards all the time.

As for the second and third questions... the third question makes me second-guess myself a little, but I'm honestly pretty sure that my answer to the second question is no. Because my standards for things are so incredibly high, and because I'm so prone towards self-blame (and sometimes beating myself up to the point of self-loathing, if I'm in a particularly dark and 4-ish and INFP-ish mood), I seize every opportunity I can to not blame myself for things. Deep down, I think, I have a need to ease the pressure I put on myself; one way that need manifests itself is the way I guard what little free time I have with my life, because otherwise I would overschedule myself to the point of driving myself crazy -- and I think another way it manifests is by going: "Could I have done anything differently? No! So is it my fault? NO! So people are NOT justified in being mad at me and I am officially off the hook!! Whew! Yes!!"

Interesting. So would you say, even if it sounds like you are venting about a situation (say, about someone that irritates you) you are really just trying to invite others to help figure out what is going on and why?
Generally, yeah. And if I'm not, I try to make that as clear as I can, i.e. making qualifiers like "It's pretty much solved now, i.e. there isn't much I can do about it, but it was really annoying at the time!" Some of this is just my personality (i.e. that I don't complain much), and some of it comes from having one parent (INFJ) who complains constantly and one parent (INTP) who is guaranteed to try and fix your problem if you don't make it clear to him that you're venting. Watching that dynamic play out with my parents pretty much taught me exactly what to do -- even though I find myself slipping into trying to solve the problems of people who are venting, on a regular basis. :doh:
He’s not bad or annoying at all, no, just has his preferences. He has a hard time relating to and understanding Ns, and he sees them as out of touch with reality, not practical, and the purveyors of chaos and off-the-wall ideas and notions. He says he has more respect for NJs because at least they have the decency to keep their N largely to themselves, can blend in with more normal people, and keep a more orderly environment. :tongue: (Although he seems to get along fine with NFJs, NTJs don't seem to get along with him. At all.)
This is interesting. I understand the NTJ conflict; depending on the NTJ and the STJ, there's definitely potential for personality clashes there! Was your ESTJ raised around a lot of Sensors and not a lot of Intuitors? His POV makes a lot of sense if he was either raised around Sensors or raised around particularly dreamy/flighty Intuitors that annoyed him personally.
Yes. He knows we are the ones who know he’s secretly really soft and snuggly on the inside.
Exactly. :wub:
I wouldn’t characterize Ps as passive, but I think they have more flexibility, and thus will often flex to fit the J, especially when the J has very strong notions and the P is an FP, which would be naturally more concerned with pleasing the other. Also, with the exception of STPs, all other Ps are role-informers under Keirsey’s model, which I think has some usefulness. Role-informers often prefer to give feedback rather than directives - feedback is not passivity. I think most Ps make great leaders, and many don’t mind assuming that role, but will often defer to a “natural leader” personality as long as they find the “leader” acceptable/agreeable, only balking or stepping in if it becomes disagreeable to them for some reason.
Oh ok -- yeah, you're right. This is definitely true!
Yes, he loves this. He and his ESFP cousin for example, outright talk over each other constantly. It will go on and on, with neither one breaking and both of them literally talking at the same time, until someone breaks and relents and lets the other talk without the other talking over them (only to interrupt very soon after, of course.) She is also a very intense personality, so he sees it as a fun game to see if he can out-talk her and make her relent. Both of them are of the variety that a lot of people have trouble handling them in interactions.
:laugh: This sounds like me and my NT friends, actually! When my INTP dad and I get into heated discussions, it can worry the Feelers in the vicinity. :yes:
ESTJ at least to me seems like a very powerful personality, the big boss nobody wants to mess with!
That's probably true. :yes: I wouldn't describe myself this way, but I think sometimes I do come across like that; I think ENTJs and ESTJs (and ESTPs?) are probably the types that come across as the most powerful, and I attribute that to the absolute confidence and certainty that all three types exude -- and their intense, passionate reactions to injustice and Things Done Wrong.
If these kinds of questions are allowed, what is your opinion on this heart-breaking video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDbuZM-MN4s&feature=related
I honestly couldn't/didn't want to watch more than a minute of this video; literally after thirty seconds I was overwhelmed by a feeling of disgust. Obviously the fact that any relationships operate that way, and that some husbands treat their wives this way, is horrible. But the idea of having so much time dedicated to watching the abuse happen to real people on national television, and that it seems to be more for entertainment than for educational purposes -- I find that exploitative and twisted. And obviously having the husband abuse the wife in the TV studio is inexcusable. It would be a much more valuable (and honorable) use of people's time, if the special focused on groups that deal with the problem, in addition to the problem itself.
I apologize for my lack of knowing that. I thought it was like Oprah. :shock:
Actually -- Oprah can annoy me for the exact same reason, i.e. that the show can seem exploitative.
Hmm, I guess I should ask something good, then... Which MBTI types appeal to you most for a relationship, and why?
Generally I'm attracted to NFs, for whatever reason. I guess they balance me out, our personalities are complementary, we have skills that the others lack -- and also NFs have similar values to me (honor, respect, civility), and we can have really great conversations. :)
 

SD45T-2

Senior Jr.
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
4,229
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w2
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Is there any particular reason you're into trains? Does someone in your family work for a railroad? Was there a lot of railroad activity in the area where you grew up? If you ever have any railroad related questions be sure to let me know! :)

Do you know any other people your age who are into the Marx Brothers? My best friend (ISTJ 5w6 sp/so) is a fan but he's old enough to be my dad, and he was a little surprsied when he found out I was too because he hadn't encountered any people in their teens/twenties who were.

Hey now! To be fair, I think it's a regional thing; if you gave me a container of orange marmalade, I wouldn't know what to do with it. I don't see it in restaurants, I don't know anyone who uses it or cooks with it. But give it to me in something you made and I'll definitely eat it. :)
Sorry, I couldn't resist teasing you about it. :D You typically use it like jam or fruit curd and put it on bread or scones.

Dundee is the way to go, IMHO: http://www.dundeemarmalade.com/dundee.html

The varieties: http://www.dundeemarmalade.com/marmalades.html

I used to be able to get Dundee at Trader Joe's and some supermarkets. Awhile back Trader Joe's replaced it with their own brand of orange marmalade (which tasted flat to me), and now I can't find it at other stores either. Bloody hell! :irked:

At least there's still Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...rch-alias=aps&field-keywords=dundee+marmalade
 

lauranna

Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
764
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Hey all! I made this thread in response to a few things:

1. My experience with the rampant misconceptions about ESTJs that so many members have here (based on very limited personal experience, if any),
2. Loads of random people on TypoC asking me questions about the ESTJs in their lives, because I'm one of the only semi-actively-posting ESTJs here, and
3. All the people who want me (and the other ESTJs here) to try to make a difference on this site.

Here's the idea: if anybody has any questions that only an ESTJ can answer (and please, no spamming!), do so here. I'll do my best to help you out. Also, I reqest that other ESTJs help out on this thread here too. This doesn't have to be a one-woman battle! But you obviously shouldn't feel obligated to help out if you don't want to. I can do this on my own if necessary.

EDIT: Don't be afraid to post here! I won't bite. :)

So here I am. Questions, anyone?

Hi, I have a question.

Basically I have been typing all my friends/acquaintances/ex lovers and i am literally surrounded by ESTJs. They all try and control me/often they bug me. And it is always them that initiate/maintain the contact. Is there something about ISTPs that you feel the need to save/control/organise?

Thanks :)
 
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