[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[Tamske]

About the blog question: I don't know. So I can only answer this:

You should decide for yourself.

Do you have a subject? Because lots of blogs are just about the person's lives and they tend to get boring after a while. But I know some nice political and weather ones (hubby follows them, I don't follow any blogs). The readers will compliment you about your blog, but that's because they like you, they don't necessarily like your writings. And after a while they'll stay away if it doesn't interest them, without telling you why.
I've learnt that the hard way with my writings. Lots of people say they are awesome, but they haven't a clue what it's about and no editor will buy them, so I know they aren't. Luckily I found some real critics.

 

[EJCC]

Do you have a subject? Because lots of blogs are just about the person's lives and they tend to get boring after a while. But I know some nice political and weather ones (hubby follows them, I don't follow any blogs). The readers will compliment you about your blog, but that's because they like you, they don't necessarily like your writings. And after a while they'll stay away if it doesn't interest them, without telling you why.
I've learnt that the hard way with my writings. Lots of people say they are awesome, but they haven't a clue what it's about and no editor will buy them, so I know they aren't. Luckily I found some real critics.

Wow, thank you! This post actually kind of took me aback, and I had to think on it for a while before I replied. Way to be an ENTP and tell it like it is! I had forgotten that blogs are 5x more interesting when they aren't like someone's random Facebook posts or tweets. I mean, I know that my being an ESTJ is at least a small point of interest (considering the fact, which I completely forgot to mention, that I'll be starting the blog in the TypeC blog section), but it would definitely help to narrow it down. How's this:

What the blog will NOT have:
- Random interpersonal drama and/or emo ramblings (and if they're there, I will keep it to a bare minimum and NOT bitch at length about it)
- Tiny, Tweet-like observations about pet peeves etc.

What the blog WILL have:
- Thought-out posts on things I find interesting in the realms of: Music, things I've been learning in college (i.e. history, politics, etc), and MBTI (obviously)
- Random factoids (because I love them)
- If there are things about my life in the blog, I'll try to accentuate what makes them interesting/unique
- Conversational posts with whoever feels like commenting (which is part of the reason why I'm wanting to have the blog be here; I like the fact that blogs often turn into discussions. I like that the bloggers learn from the readers)

So... should I narrow it more?

Actually, I'll make my question more on topic to this thread: What would be the preferred themes in an ESTJ's blog, if you were to read it?


EDIT:

Really? Well, congratulations on that. It's always good to learn how to change things that aren't working for you. It's a valuable skill that many people don't possess.

I'm sorry, I just assumed that being an SJ, you would take that as a compliment. Besides... I actually have that reputation already just from being strongly J. I do change in subtle ways that people aren't likely to notice... but in general, I still behave the same as I did 5 years ago. Same clothes, same habits, etc. Biggest change for me was that last year, I stopped drinking cola and started drinking water. Oh, and I took a trip to New York. Those are the only two things I can say were outside of my usual pattern of behavior.

If it makes you feel any better, I would have taken it as a compliment if I were at a different period of my life. I just transferred to a new university all the way across the country from my previous one, I'm living in a different state for the first time since I was too young to remember, etc. etc. etc. Things are happening. But I haven't settled down yet. Once I'm settled, then I'll be proud to be consistent. But at this point, I feel like I'm still growing into myself, and becoming who I will be for the rest of my life.

Defini-

Oh, wait, that's right, I don't get a say...

<--- Apology hug for forgetting about you! Of course you get a say!
And thank you

 

[Redbone]

ESTJs, how likely are you to prepare for a possible event? I'll give you an example:

Your marriage deteriorates to the point where divorce is possible. You're working on repairing it but it's not going very well (and you're at the end of your checklist). You turn your attention to your children and forge stronger bonds with them because you want to have a good relationship with them just in case the marriage is over. Did you do this because you a) see divorce as the most likely outcome and want to get it together or b) just in case?

From what I understand about ESTJs, I would think that you would forge stronger bonds, make preparations when the petition gets served, not before...sounds like too much advance planning. My ex SJ was much more a 'deal with problems as they come, not before' unless he had a great deal of certainty that something was going to drop soon.

Thanks!

 

[EJCC]

ESTJs, how likely are you to prepare for a possible event? I'll give you an example:

Your marriage deteriorates to the point where divorce is possible. You're working on repairing it but it's not going very well (and you're at the end of your checklist). You turn your attention to your children and forge stronger bonds with them because you want to have a good relationship with them just in case the marriage is over. Did you do this because you a) see divorce as the most likely outcome and want to get it together or b) just in case?

From what I understand about ESTJs, I would think that you would forge stronger bonds, make preparations when the petition gets served, not before...sounds like too much advance planning. My ex SJ was much more a 'deal with problems as they come, not before' unless he had a great deal of certainty that something was going to drop soon.

Thanks!

I relate to how you described your ex - I'm more like that too. In fact, if I were an ESTJ in a deteriorating relationship and I suddenly found myself forging stronger bonds with my kids, it wouldn't be a preparatory action. I would be doing that because I would know that the kids were going through a lot already (considering the marital trouble, which presumably they would have noticed, because kids are perceptive), and I would want to reassure them, let them know that it isn't their fault, that I love them no matter what, that I'll always be there for them, etc. Even if that was, in a sense, preparing for the end, it's mostly dealing with current issues.

As for your broader question: When faced with a potential event, I have to force myself to prepare for it, because that sort of thing doesn't come naturally to me; I'm more likely to want to put off preparation until later. (To quote Tamske's ESTJ comics: "IRRELEVANT!") But the more serious/likely the potential event is, the easier it will be for me to take the necessary steps to prepare for it. For example, let's say I live in southern Mississippi, and there's a tropical storm approaching - not likely to be terribly destructive to my house, but still worrisome. I'll be hyper-efficient, and almost on autopilot - no need to force myself to do anything. ESTJs are REALLY good in crisis mode! I'll call family members, find out online (or whatever) what the best ways of protecting your house are, stock up on food and/or pack up and leave, etc.

 

[Redbone]

I relate to how you described your ex - I'm more like that too. In fact, if I were an ESTJ in a deteriorating relationship and I suddenly found myself forging stronger bonds with my kids, it wouldn't be a preparatory action. I would be doing that because I would know that the kids were going through a lot already (considering the marital trouble, which presumably they would have noticed, because kids are perceptive), and I would want to reassure them, let them know that it isn't their fault, that I love them no matter what, that I'll always be there for them, etc. Even if that was, in a sense, preparing for the end, it's mostly dealing with current issues.

I'm sorry EJCC--I forgot to add that this was his response when I asked him what does he think will happen to his relationship. I thought it was a really (surprisingly) indirect way to answer the question. I wondered why he didn't say "I think we will divorce." or 'No, it won't happen. Things are better now." My ex said if he took this step, he is looking at it being a great possibility at this point. Do you concur? I'm sorry I didn't specify this in the original question.

 

[EJCC]

I'm sorry EJCC--I forgot to add that this was his response when I asked him what does he think will happen to his relationship. I thought it was a really (surprisingly) indirect way to answer the question. I wondered why he didn't say "I think we will divorce." or 'No, it won't happen. Things are better now." My ex said if he took this step, he is looking at it being a great possibility at this point. Do you concur? I'm sorry I didn't specify this in the original question.

I'm not sure what the bolded means. And do I concur with...? With your surprise that he didn't have a very direct answer?
Sorry I'm not getting it...

 

[Redbone]

It's me...I'm telling this out of order.

I asked my ESTJ friend what does he think will happen--is divorce inevitable or no? Instead of giving me a direct answer, he told me how he has taken steps to forge stronger and closer bonds with his kids. He was very pleased that he had done so and said his relationship was better than ever with them. I thought the answer was strange because I didn't ask him that. That led to me speculating--"What kind of an answer was that?" I asked my ex and he replied "He did answer the question." The ex said that the ESTJ is preparing because he thinks it will happen. I wanted to ask your opinion because from what I know of most SJs, they deal with issues as they arise and would be given to prepare for what will "probably happen" versus for what "might happen". Is that how you read this, too? As a 'probably'?

Kinda ticked with myself for not saying this in the first place (and yes! I heard you mutter, "Why didn't she say this in the first place?" )

It is sad and strange that both of the ESTJs I know are both facing the possibility of divorce for almost identical reasons. I can empathize with their situations all too well.

 

[EJCC]

I asked my ESTJ friend what does he think will happen--is divorce inevitable or no? Instead of giving me a direct answer, he told me how he has taken steps to forge stronger and closer bonds with his kids. He was very pleased that he had done so and said his relationship was better than ever with them. I thought the answer was strange because I didn't ask him that. That led to me speculating--"What kind of an answer was that?" I asked my ex and he replied "He did answer the question." The ex said that the ESTJ is preparing because he thinks it will happen. I wanted to ask your opinion because from what I know of most SJs, they deal with issues as they arise and would be given to prepare for what will "probably happen" versus for what "might happen". Is that how you read this, too? As a 'probably'?

After my initial surprise at the ambiguity of the language, I agree with your ex - i.e. he thinks it will happen. Not a "probably", but a "certainly enough to start preparing". If it was a "probably", I doubt that he would be preparing. Like you said before, ESTJs are grounded enough in reality that they probably aren't going to prepare for situations unless they're very likely to occur. So even though there's no way to be certain in a case like that one, I can totally imagine, in my head, your ESTJ friend's response being spoken accompanied by a nod of the head. "Yeah it is, and because of that, I've been spending more time with my kids..." Like he's putting a positive spin on an incredibly negative turn of events.

(and yes! I heard you mutter, "Why didn't she say this in the first place?" )

Not at all. But I WAS thinking "Why did she expect me to follow that thought process?" Ah, we linear thinkers...

It is sad and strange that both of the ESTJs I know are both facing the possibility of divorce for almost identical reasons. I can empathize with their situations all too well.

That is sad. Was it because they were afraid to open up, or something? (Morbid curiosity, because I wonder if my relationships may someday be doomed for similar reasons to theirs.)

 

[Redbone]

After my initial surprise at the ambiguity of the language,

Surprise? I am INTP after all. I'm just kidding. I think I feel a little uncomfortable discussing this because of the emotion involved. I had a dream about this couple and I was convinced that I could save their marriage if they just listened to me. He doesn't 'believe' in MBTI so I was trying to help them but not use MBTI terminology. She was too angry and upset to listen and he was totally disinterested in the topic. I felt helpless and frustrated. Weird dream, I know. Touches too close to home.

I agree with your ex - i.e. he thinks it will happen. Not a "probably", but a "certainly enough to start preparing". If it was a "probably", I doubt that he would be preparing. Like you said before, ESTJs are grounded enough in reality that they probably aren't going to prepare for situations unless they're very likely to occur. So even though there's no way to be certain in a case like that one, I can totally imagine, in my head, your ESTJ friend's response being spoken accompanied by a nod of the head. "Yeah it is, and because of that, I've been spending more time with my kids..." Like he's putting a positive spin on an incredibly negative turn of events.

This is what I thought but I wanted to see what you thought, too. Thanks. Damn--it is really a shame.

Is that what you do, though? Put a positive spin on a negative event? This would explain some things if so.

That is sad. Was it because they were afraid to open up, or something? (Morbid curiosity, because I wonder if my relationships may someday be doomed for similar reasons to theirs.)

I can't completely say but I think that it is likely that they are going through this for similar reasons that I am. Many, if not most, people have expectations about what their marriage is supposed to be, what a relationship is about, what they want from their partner...blah, blah, blah. This is almost never, ever discussed--love is "supposed" to make this kind of thing obvious, right? We wish.

I think for a lot of T-pref, love may be displayed in the form of action. For many women and for some men, they might start to feel like they are taken care of instead of being cared for. For myself, my cousin and my friend, it is a situation where the kind of love we display is not really seen as love but more like just doing our duty. Different types of displays are desired and preferable but resentment develops when these things have to be asked for. For example, he might be told that she really loves flowers. "Why don't you bring me flowers more often? I really love them. I wish you'd buy them for me more often." Next day, the flowers appear. He expects her to be happy--he did what he was asked to do, right? Wrong. She had to say something to him; it wasn't spontaneous, therefore not genuine. She pretends to be happy but is secretly angry that she had to tell him something that is obvious to her. He is upset because he can sense her unhappiness and wonders what the problem is. He did as she asked....

Or she may be angry about something. Sulks. Pouts. Goes to sleep on the couch. He asks if she's coming to bed. Reply is, "I'm sleeping here tonight." He says, "Okay--goodnight then." She wants him to draw her out..."what's wrong? Will you talk to me, please? I see you're upset." He figures that she wants to talk, then she will do so and he can't do anything until she speaks up. This also feels emotionally manipulative. She interprets this as him not caring about her feelings.

Multiply this by everyday and in just about every direction and you come to an endpoint.

I think this can be avoided by careful examination of the expectations each party has and how they will mutually meet them.

Re-reading this makes things pretty grim but it doesn't have to be.

 

[EJCC]

Surprise? I am INTP after all. I'm just kidding. I think I feel a little uncomfortable discussing this because of the emotion involved. I had a dream about this couple and I was convinced that I could save their marriage if they just listened to me. He doesn't 'believe' in MBTI so I was trying to help them but not use MBTI terminology. She was too angry and upset to listen and he was totally disinterested in the topic. I felt helpless and frustrated. Weird dream, I know. Touches too close to home.

This is what I thought but I wanted to see what you thought, too. Thanks. Damn--it is really a shame.

yeah.

Is that what you do, though? Put a positive spin on a negative event? This would explain some things if so.

It's generally what I do - that is, either a positive spin, or a neutral/matter-of-fact tone, or a battle plan. And it's not really a coping mechanism in itself, for me, as much as it is a brand new outlook resulting from an internal crisis that I probably never shared with anyone - or a matter-of-fact recitation of words I've been using to comfort myself that haven't necessarily worked.

Here's an example: Last semester I wasn't in any extracurriculars at all, except for my work study. That really frustrated me, for a lot of reasons, and made me feel inadequate compared to friends of mine who were able to join quite a few extracurriculars AND maintain their work study job AND get good grades. It was especially frustrating because I had tried about three different student groups and hated all of them, therefore quitting. I felt horrible and embarrassed and very insecure about it, so I told myself "Firstly, you tried really hard to find a group, so it's not like you're being lazy. And secondly, you're in your first year at a brand new college five times more difficult than your previous one. You're allowed a semester to ease in to it." So after reasonably successfully reassuring myself with that, the next time anyone asked me what extracurriculars I was in, I would tell them "I'm not in any right now, besides my work study, but I figure that I can spend my first semester easing into life at this school, and next semester I'll start looking for groups again." And I'll say that so matter-of-factly that the person will have no idea how much soul-searching went into it (and they'll probably never know). They'll think it was just some logical statement I came up with off the top of my head.

I can't completely say but I think that it is likely that they are going through this for similar reasons that I am. Many, if not most, people have expectations about what their marriage is supposed to be, what a relationship is about, what they want from their partner...blah, blah, blah. This is almost never, ever discussed--love is "supposed" to make this kind of thing obvious, right? We wish.

I think for a lot of T-pref, love may be displayed in the form of action. For many women and for some men, they might start to feel like they are taken care of instead of being cared for. For myself, my cousin and my friend, it is a situation where the kind of love we display is not really seen as love but more like just doing our duty. Different types of displays are desired and preferable but resentment develops when these things have to be asked for. For example, he might be told that she really loves flowers. "Why don't you bring me flowers more often? I really love them. I wish you'd buy them for me more often." Next day, the flowers appear. He expects her to be happy--he did what he was asked to do, right? Wrong. She had to say something to him; it wasn't spontaneous, therefore not genuine. She pretends to be happy but is secretly angry that she had to tell him something that is obvious to her. He is upset because he can sense her unhappiness and wonders what the problem is. He did as she asked....

Or she may be angry about something. Sulks. Pouts. Goes to sleep on the couch. He asks if she's coming to bed. Reply is, "I'm sleeping here tonight." He says, "Okay--goodnight then." She wants him to draw her out..."what's wrong? Will you talk to me, please? I see you're upset." He figures that she wants to talk, then she will do so and he can't do anything until she speaks up. This also feels emotionally manipulative. She interprets this as him not caring about her feelings.

Multiply this by everyday and in just about every direction and you come to an endpoint.

I think this can be avoided by careful examination of the expectations each party has and how they will mutually meet them.

I can't help but be insensitive towards the non-ESTJ side of this conflict, but I just HATE that kind of thing. So many sexist commercials/movies/TV episodes/etc. show that kind of behavior and make it seem typical of women in general. But it ISN'T! It's typical of women who are, in my opinion, FAR too used to the idea that it's okay to not be totally honest with people - to lead them on, to manipulate them, and to think that's "normal". You get that as early as middle school, with girls asking other girls to ask other girls to tell their friends that they REALLY like that one cute guy, instead of just telling the guy up front. No offense meant - but I just can't tolerate that shit. I hate it. I don't understand it, I don't see why it's helpful or necessary. One of my biggest pet peeves is when you ask an angry girl or woman what's wrong, and she says "You know perfectly well what's wrong" and refuses to tell you. God DAMN it, how much more passive-aggressive could you get???

In short, I'm on the side of your ESTJs, and I can't help but see it as entirely the issue of the women in their relationships.

Let me tell you, this is making me VERY glad to be a straight girl. Guys are much less likely to do stuff like that. It gives me hope, that I'll have as honest and open a relationship as I would like to have, when I'm in a serious relationship. If that's the typical issue, with ESTJs, then maybe I can avoid that.

Re-reading this makes things pretty grim but it doesn't have to be.

True. Speaking of putting a positive spin on things!

 

[Tamske]

The "ENTJ vs ESTJ" thread in the Rationale makes me want to ask this.

Do you often get the impression that you're singled out (on the forum and/or in real life) as the inferior type?
Because I didn't have that impression, but then again I'm not an ESTJ (heh) so probably I don't really pay attention to it. You can use negative words to describe any type, can't you?
Aren't the ENTJs evil bastards, the ENTPs irresponsible goofballs,...?

 

[EJCC]

The "ENTJ vs ESTJ" thread in the Rationale makes me want to ask this.

Do you often get the impression that you're singled out (on the forum and/or in real life) as the inferior type?

In real life, not at all. In real life, people use the MBTI to help in dealing with people, and respond to any negative aspects of the type as "Oh, THAT'S why they do that; now I can change the way I approach them and avoid that issue." I think if I proposed the idea that any one type was superior to ANY person I know in real life who knows about the MBTI, they would think I was crazy. The whole idea of type superiority is probably just a creation of places like this - forums, places for scholarly discussion, whatever. Which is why, although there's no anti-ESTJ bias in real life at ALL, there is a TON of it on this forum.

I'd like to think that my mere existence here has helped that a little, but it hasn't entirely gone away. Wherever there is sensor bias, there is anti-ESTJ bias - from Ns (mostly NTs) who think to themselves "What gives ESTJs the right to assert their opinions to me when they obviously aren't intelligent, creative or insightful enough for those opinions to be valid - or, at least, more valid/intelligent/etc than MY opinions, which are perfectly thought out?"

Because I didn't have that impression, but then again I'm not an ESTJ (heh) so probably I don't really pay attention to it. You can use negative words to describe any type, can't you?
Aren't the ENTJs evil bastards, the ENTPs irresponsible goofballs,...?

Yeah, but the difference is that there are a TON of ENTPs and ENTJs on this forum, so if someone starts stereotyping and actually believing the stereotypes (as opposed to stereotyping and making fun of the stereotypes), a great big mob of ENTPs and ENTJs will show up and enlighten that person - or bully them a little bit. But either way, the stereotyper will leave the situation knowing that they can't make statements like that anymore. There's no mob of ESTJs here. There's me, and Max and sui generis whenever they feel like showing up, and a crew of NFs and NTs who like me and like their ESTJ family members/spouses. But that's nothing compared to the number of sensor haters here.

 

[Redbone]

It's generally what I do - that is, either a positive spin, or a neutral/matter-of-fact tone, or a battle plan. And it's not really a coping mechanism in itself, for me, as much as it is a brand new outlook resulting from an internal crisis that I probably never shared with anyone - or a matter-of-fact recitation of words I've been using to comfort myself that haven't necessarily

Here's an example: Last semester I wasn't in any extracurriculars at all, except for my work study. That really frustrated me, for a lot of reasons, and made me feel inadequate compared to friends of mine who were able to join quite a few extracurriculars AND maintain their work study job AND get good grades. It was especially frustrating because I had tried about three different student groups and hated all of them, therefore quitting. I felt horrible and embarrassed and very insecure about it, so I told myself "Firstly, you tried really hard to find a group, so it's not like you're being lazy. And secondly, you're in your first year at a brand new college five times more difficult than your previous one. You're allowed a semester to ease in to it." So after reasonably successfully reassuring myself with that, the next time anyone asked me what extracurriculars I was in, I would tell them "I'm not in any right now, besides my work study, but I figure that I can spend my first semester easing into life at this school, and next semester I'll start looking for groups again." And I'll say that so matter-of-factly that the person will have no idea how much soul-searching went into it (and they'll probably never know). They'll think it was just some logical statement I came up with off the top of my head.

Thank you for sharing this. This is valuable insight. I have talked to them both about serious issues and sometimes I have received what I perceived as a "don't worry, be happy" kind of reply. I didn't know that it was a way of putting energy into whatever may be positive in the situation or encouraging someone else to do so.

This probably also tells me that with one of them, this is what came out of 'being in his head'. That sucks.

I can't help but be insensitive towards the non-ESTJ side of this conflict, but I just HATE that kind of thing. So many sexist commercials/movies/TV episodes/etc. show that kind of behavior and make it seem typical of women in general. But it ISN'T! It's typical of women who are, in my opinion, FAR too used to the idea that it's okay to not be totally honest with people - to lead them on, to manipulate them, and to think that's "normal". You get that as early as middle school, with girls asking other girls to ask other girls to tell their friends that they REALLY like that one cute guy, instead of just telling the guy up front. No offense meant - but I just can't tolerate that shit. I hate it. I don't understand it, I don't see why it's helpful or necessary. One of my biggest pet peeves is when you ask an angry girl or woman what's wrong, and she says "You know perfectly well what's wrong" and refuses to tell you. God DAMN it, how much more passive-aggressive could you get???

I hate this kind of thing, too. I've gotten to the point where I call it out if I see it happening. Well, at least the emotional manipulation.

It's not a good thing and I'll never understand it. How the hell are you supposed to know where you truly stand with someone? One of my favorite quotes is from an INTJ I know "I take my truth neat." If you can't be real, it might be better to be quiet. Gah--I better stop...my blood is beginning to boil. I need to move back into my cool INTP zone.

In short, I'm on the side of your ESTJs, and I can't help but see it as entirely the issue of the women in their relationships.
Let me tell you, this is making me VERY glad to be a straight girl. Guys are much less likely to do stuff like that. It gives me hope, that I'll have as honest and open a relationship as I would like to have, when I'm in a serious relationship. If that's the typical issue, with ESTJs, then maybe I can avoid that.

I am as well...maybe even more so because I was just in (and still extricating myself from) this same situation. Just reverse the genders and that's me and the ex.

Hope with caution. If you find yourself paired with an extroverted feeler, it's going to be some rough going. Guys are less likely to do it but they do exist (my ex is ESFJ) and well... It can work if you're dealing with someone mature (I'm already working under the assumption that you are) because it creates openings for communication despite personality traits, beliefs, and attitudes.

Not only that, most, if not all, people have expectations. In all the relationships I have been in, I've only been with one person that wasn't thrown off by being what most people think of as "masculine" (emotions, how I deal with problems, how I think, etc.). People have constructs in their heads and when it doesn't match with reality, either they will adjust or they will cling to the construct and begin to find fault with reality. Whoever you end up with, I hope they see and value you for the gifts you bring to the relationship and are willing to accept you as is.

 

[sui generis]

I've decided to make an appearance; I've been missing my TypeC friends too much.

Do you often get the impression that you're singled out (on the forum and/or in real life) as the inferior type?
Because I didn't have that impression, but then again I'm not an ESTJ (heh)

Not in real life- I think that my weirdness and the parts of me that are not as much Stricty ESTJ are more of a disadvantage in Real Life. We ESTJs function pretty well in the real (organized, punctual, dependable, rational, thought-based) world, and I feel at home in the world most of the time, unlike my INFP friend, who has said that she often feels like she doesn't belong.
I do feel like there's a lot of ESTJ hate, as well as a lot of S-hate in general, on the forums, but there's not as much as it used to be, and it bothers me less than it used to. If people are going to be prejudiced against me based on a caricature of my personality and not get to know me as a person, that's their loss and their problem.

You can use negative words to describe any type, can't you?
Aren't the ENTJs evil bastards, the ENTPs irresponsible goofballs,...?

For sure! ENTJs ARE evil bastards, FPs have their heads in the clouds and couldn't form a rational argument to save their lives and are probably crying right now, etc. It's all caricatures; real people are more complicated than that.

 

[skylights]

Here's an example: Last semester I wasn't in any extracurriculars at all, except for my work study. That really frustrated me, for a lot of reasons, and made me feel inadequate compared to friends of mine who were able to join quite a few extracurriculars AND maintain their work study job AND get good grades. It was especially frustrating because I had tried about three different student groups and hated all of them, therefore quitting. I felt horrible and embarrassed and very insecure about it, so I told myself "Firstly, you tried really hard to find a group, so it's not like you're being lazy. And secondly, you're in your first year at a brand new college five times more difficult than your previous one. You're allowed a semester to ease in to it." So after reasonably successfully reassuring myself with that, the next time anyone asked me what extracurriculars I was in, I would tell them "I'm not in any right now, besides my work study, but I figure that I can spend my first semester easing into life at this school, and next semester I'll start looking for groups again." And I'll say that so matter-of-factly that the person will have no idea how much soul-searching went into it (and they'll probably never know). They'll think it was just some logical statement I came up with off the top of my head.

i have had a very similar situation recently, and felt a very similar way. embarrassed and displeased - and came up with a similar solution of telling people i was just getting used to things and planned to pick up more activities later. it's comforting to hear of someone in a similar situation

FPs have their heads in the clouds and couldn't form a rational argument to save their lives and are probably crying right now, etc.

what? no i'm... not...

 

[EJCC]

Thank you for sharing this. This is valuable insight. I have talked to them both about serious issues and sometimes I have received what I perceived as a "don't worry, be happy" kind of reply. I didn't know that it was a way of putting energy into whatever may be positive in the situation or encouraging someone else to do so.

Yes, definitely. It's just like The White House, actually - all of the most serious work happens away from the public eye, and everyone else has to rely on the press secretary for information. And while the press secretary's information may be accurate, it completely leaves out the deliberative process.
How appropriate of me, comparing ESTJs to the government. Pardon me for enforcing stereotypes!

This probably also tells me that with one of them, this is what came out of 'being in his head'. That sucks.

Well, actually, the "being in his head" part was the part that sucked. In my case - and maybe in your ESTJ's case too - the cheer shown when telling people that is usually entirely genuine. Because the reassuring words they're saying were likely used before that to reassure themselves, too.

I hate this kind of thing, too. I've gotten to the point where I call it out if I see it happening. Well, at least the emotional manipulation.

I need to get better at dealing with that. The last time someone acted like that towards me, my pissed-off-o-meter went from zero to sixty in less than a second. I couldn't hold it in at all - I just went "God, don't talk like that to me. Just tell me what you really think. I can take it."

People don't think of me as aggressive, but that's because I avoid any conflict that I deem to be 1. overly risky, and/or 2. unnecessary. (I'm 99% sure this comes from my enneagram - and maybe(?not sure about this self-typing) having self-pres as #1 on my instinctual stacking.) But when it's necessary, or when there's no risk, or if I'm mad enough that I can't hold it in anymore, THEN you'll see EJCC acting aggressive - as in the above example.

It's not a good thing and I'll never understand it. How the hell are you supposed to know where you truly stand with someone? One of my favorite quotes is from an INTJ I know "I take my truth neat." If you can't be real, it might be better to be quiet. Gah--I better stop...my blood is beginning to boil. I need to move back into my cool INTP zone.

I am as well...maybe even more so because I was just in (and still extricating myself from) this same situation. Just reverse the genders and that's me and the ex.

Hope with caution. If you find yourself paired with an extroverted feeler, it's going to be some rough going. Guys are less likely to do it but they do exist (my ex is ESFJ) and well... It can work if you're dealing with someone mature (I'm already working under the assumption that you are) because it creates openings for communication despite personality traits, beliefs, and attitudes.

Not only that, most, if not all, people have expectations. In all the relationships I have been in, I've only been with one person that wasn't thrown off by being what most people think of as "masculine" (emotions, how I deal with problems, how I think, etc.). People have constructs in their heads and when it doesn't match with reality, either they will adjust or they will cling to the construct and begin to find fault with reality. Whoever you end up with, I hope they see and value you for the gifts you bring to the relationship and are willing to accept you as is.

I hope so too. And I know what you mean about Fe and maturity. The situation I mentioned earlier, with someone being really passive-aggressive, was with an immature INFJ guy. But one of my best friends is an ENFJ, and he's very mature and honest and smart, and uses his Fe more for the purposes of tact than for sending mixed messages. (Too bad he's gay. )

Not in real life- I think that my weirdness and the parts of me that are not as much Stricty ESTJ are more of a disadvantage in Real Life. We ESTJs function pretty well in the real (organized, punctual, dependable, rational, thought-based) world, and I feel at home in the world most of the time, unlike my INFP friend, who has said that she often feels like she doesn't belong.
I do feel like there's a lot of ESTJ hate, as well as a lot of S-hate in general, on the forums, but there's not as much as it used to be, and it bothers me less than it used to. If people are going to be prejudiced against me based on a caricature of my personality and not get to know me as a person, that's their loss and their problem.

Yes.

For sure! ENTJs ARE evil bastards, FPs have their heads in the clouds and couldn't form a rational argument to save their lives and are probably crying right now, etc.

Definitely. The ENTJs are evil bastards trying to take over the world, the INTJs are leading the ENTJ's secret police and torturing people for information in some unknown, protected location... and while the xNFPs are crying about it, the INFJs have gathered together, tied themselves to a tree, and started singing "Give Peace A Chance".
The xSTJs witness these crazy antics, and they sigh, shake their heads and get back to editing Excel sheets in their corporate cubicle jobs.

i have had a very similar situation recently, and felt a very similar way. embarrassed and displeased - and came up with a similar solution of telling people i was just getting used to things and planned to pick up more activities later. it's comforting to hear of someone in a similar situation

Aww. I empathize. Has it worked out okay? It's worked out for me, so far, this semester. I've found two or three clubs to try out - although I really wish I had an opportunity to play percussion again. I'll keep looking, for that one.

 

[Fidelia]

Hey EJCC! I just was reading your comments on how you would make someone feel better - put a positive spin on things, come up with a battle plan, etc. There is a thread in the NF section (Silkroad started it, talking about being allowed to feel negative emotions). I think your perspective would be useful over there. I've explained how Fi-Te works in interacting with distressed Fe-Ti from my perspective, but I think it would be useful to have it stated in your terms as well and I remember this coming up earlier in this thread too. I found it quite helpful at the time.

Similarly, I'm wondering when ESTJs are feeling badly about something, would it be easily recognizable to someone looking on, or is it self-contained enough that others wouldn't know unless you said something? (Some Fi-Te users seem particularly good at this. I envy that superpower sometimes). Would you prefer them to try to put it in a things will be just fine perspective, or offer a solution or would it be best just to make you a nice dinner and act like all is well as a vote of confidence. I know this sounds terribly clumsy, but it takes me several times revisiting it to assimilate the information into a way that makes sense to me, as this is a very foreign way of doing things for me!

 

[EJCC]

Hey EJCC! I just was reading your comments on how you would make someone feel better - put a positive spin on things, come up with a battle plan, etc. There is a thread in the NF section (Silkroad started it, talking about being allowed to feel negative emotions). I think your perspective would be useful over there. I've explained how Fi-Te works in interacting with distressed Fe-Ti from my perspective, but I think it would be useful to have it stated in your terms as well and I remember this coming up earlier in this thread too. I found it quite helpful at the time.

Ok I went to the thread, and posted probably the biggest post I've ever written in my life Hope it helps!

Similarly, I'm wondering when ESTJs are feeling badly about something, would it be easily recognizable to someone looking on, or is it self-contained enough that others wouldn't know unless you said something? (Some Fi-Te users seem particularly good at this. I envy that superpower sometimes). Would you prefer them to try to put it in a things will be just fine perspective, or offer a solution or would it be best just to make you a nice dinner and act like all is well as a vote of confidence. I know this sounds terribly clumsy, but it takes me several times revisiting it to assimilate the information into a way that makes sense to me, as this is a very foreign way of doing things for me!

... what do you mean by "someone looking on"? Do you mean, noticing that someone notices that they feel bad? If that's what you meant - I would probably be too oblivious to notice unless the person went up to me and said something. When I'm feeling bad, I really am very self-contained. Very focused on just getting things over with - getting from point A to point B, minimizing the physical/emotional discomfort in a very gut-based and self-involved way. Introspective to the point of not noticing much in the outside world.

 

[sui generis]

I would probably be too oblivious to notice unless the person went up to me and said something. When I'm feeling bad, I really am very self-contained. Very focused on just getting things over with - getting from point A to point B, minimizing the physical/emotional discomfort in a very gut-based and self-involved way. Introspective to the point of not noticing much in the outside world.

For me it depends on whether it's a sad or angry sort of feeling bad. If I'm sad, I get into that introspective, oblivious place. If I'm angry, I'm more outwardly-focused and you won't be able to get me to shut up about it. In either case, I'm torn between wanting to talk about it and GET THE BAD FEELING OUT OF ME and fear of being judged by other people, if they're not known safe people to talk to about feelings.

As for what would make me feel better? It really depends on the situation and the person. I would loooooove it if you presented those options to me at the time, point-blank, and let me decide, actually.

 

[EJCC]

For me it depends on whether it's a sad or angry sort of feeling bad. If I'm sad, I get into that introspective, oblivious place. If I'm angry, I'm more outwardly-focused and you won't be able to get me to shut up about it. In either case, I'm torn between wanting to talk about it and GET THE BAD FEELING OUT OF ME and fear of being judged by other people, if they're not known safe people to talk to about feelings.

As for what would make me feel better? It really depends on the situation and the person. I would loooooove it if you presented those options to me at the time, point-blank, and let me decide, actually.

Oh wow, I didn't even consider thinking of feeling angry as feeling bad. For whatever reason, I find anger to be a lot easier to deal with - mostly because I don't think of anger as difficult or uncomfortable to show to people. It's a lot more acceptable and less awkward. Also, cathartically venting your anger IS dealing with the problem, whereas (in my case) venting sad feelings doesn't help - it just makes them worse.

I agree with you about worrying about being judged, though. And that's not just in situations where I feel bad. Oh my god, if I knew that people would always take things the way I meant them...! You could NEVER shut me up!