[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[sui generis]

Hm... Maybe? My first instinct was something along the lines of

Te: "I should be doing something productive."
Ne: "Hey, let's draw a pretty picture, to put on the wall! "
Te: "I guess I don't have that many decorations up there... so it's technically productive... Let's do it."

What Si should be doing in this situation: "WTF PEOPLE I have a LONG LIST of things you could be doing that are WAY more productive."
Which leads to...
Te: "Oh right. Sorry Ne. Some other time."
Ne: "... "

OK, when you put it this way, sans jargon, I relate to it. I can procrastinate SO HARD when the task is unpleasant, and this behavior is so much more pronouced when I'm stressed out.

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

...

...

I guess I have to agree with both Tamske and EJCC...I guess it could go like this?

Te: "I should be doing something productive."
Ne: "Hey, let's draw a pretty picture, to put on the wall! "
Te: "I guess I don't have that many decorations up there... so it's technically productive... Let's do it."
Si (momentary):"WTF PEOPLE I have a LONG LIST of things you could be doing that are WAY more productive."
Te: "Oh right. Sorry Ne. Some other time. Let's do this project!!!"
Ne: "There has to be a better way of doing this."
Te: "Let me think"
Ne: "This improves the product."
Te: "Implement it."
Ne: "But what about this?"
Te: "Which is better?"
Ne: "Not sure."
Te: "Let's be productive elsewhere until you know for sure."
Ne: "Like drawing a pretty picture? "

I know it's conjecture and I apologize for it and it's also still too simplistic I feel, but does it somewhat come close? There is still some Si, but it's has a weak influence and an inability to stop the cycle.

 

[Fidelia]

All dom-tert loops are hard to get out of because the behaviour seemed to keep cycling and spiralling deeper and deeper till you wear a big habitual thought/action rut into the ground. In an ideal world Si would step in, but I think Tamske is right that it rarely happens that quickly!

 

[EJCC]

I guess I have to agree with both Tamske and EJCC...I guess it could go like this?

Te: "I should be doing something productive."
Ne: "Hey, let's draw a pretty picture, to put on the wall! "
Te: "I guess I don't have that many decorations up there... so it's technically productive... Let's do it."
Si (momentary):"WTF PEOPLE I have a LONG LIST of things you could be doing that are WAY more productive."
Te: "Oh right. Sorry Ne. Some other time. Let's do this project!!!"
Ne: "There has to be a better way of doing this."
Te: "Let me think"
Ne: "This improves the product."
Te: "Implement it."
Ne: "But what about this?"
Te: "Which is better?"
Ne: "Not sure."
Te: "Let's be productive elsewhere until you know for sure."
Ne: "Like drawing a pretty picture? "

I know it's conjecture and I apologize for it and it's also still too simplistic I feel, but does it somewhat come close? There is still some Si, but it's has a weak influence and an inability to stop the cycle.

*Edited to remove my ridiculous misinterpretation of the above post, in which I thought I was being insulted*

I actually think Tamske's section of the dialogue puts a little too much faith in Te From my experience, those downward spiral moments occur when my Te weakens in moments of stress and lets Ne rule in ways that it shouldn't.

Here is a revised version that is very, very similar to Tamske's, but with weaker, more guilty Te (which is how mine is in these situations, but might not be how every ESTJ's is):

Te: "I should be doing something productive."
Ne: "Hey, let's draw a pretty picture, to put on the wall! "
Te: "I guess I don't have that many decorations up there... so it's technically productive... Let's do it."
Si:"WTF PEOPLE I have a LONG LIST of things you could be doing that are WAY more productive."
Te: "Crap, you're right. I should be doing that... "
Ne: "But it's boring and we hate it! And wouldn't it be better to do something interesting and creative?? "
Te: "Well..."
Ne: "Seriously - we hate this task, we don't like it - so let's do something interesting instead."
Te: "... Fine. But I feel bad about this."
Ne: "Feel bad about it later! NOW is about CREATIVITY!"
*hours pass by*
Ne: "The picture's done! And it's so pretty!!!"
Te: "I guess... but I still feel really, really bad about this. The deadline is approaching. I should be doing my productive task. I really, really should."
Ne: "You could do that OTHER work you have planned - you know, the project that's due later on in the week but isn't deathly boring!"
Te: "I guess that's technically productive..."

... And the cycle repeats, and the spiral goes down, until the ESTJ has to resort to what most other people wouldn't have an issue with, but the ESTJ has issues with because of high standards - i.e. finishing the project within hours - or minutes - of when it's due. Because obviously there's an inevitable moment when it goes like this:

Ne: "Fourteenth project: completed! Let's do another fun thing!"
Te: "LET'S NOT! WHY DON'T YOU SHUT UP SO I CAN GET SOME WORK DONE!!!!!"
Ne: ""
Fi: "Sorry Ne, but it had to be said."
Si: "Glad to see you've figured out what's REALLY important, Te. Now here's that priority list I was telling you about..."

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

Using this:

... And the cycle repeats, and the spiral goes down, until the ESTJ has to resort to what most other people wouldn't have an issue with, but the ESTJ has issues with because of high standards - i.e. finishing the project within hours - or minutes - of when it's due.

What happens when the project is never due? As in for personal benefit or long-term goals? Would you say the cycle continues indefinitely or if it ends, why? Anyway to help the ESTJ in the cycle?

 

[EJCC]

What happens when the project is never due? As in for personal benefit or long-term goals? Would you say the cycle continues indefinitely or if it ends, why? Anyway to help the ESTJ in the cycle?

What happens is that we block it out. Happens to me almost every time - if I postpone it for long enough, and there's no inevitable/urgent due date for my Si to point out, then it goes so far off my radar that I completely and utterly forget about it. Only when someone reminds me will I go "Oh right! Whoops!" And even then, unless the reminder person gives me a reason to do that project that I hadn't thought of before that'll motivate me, I'll forget about it again.

So... I guess the best way to help an ESTJ through it is to motivate them - and also to nag. But nagging will do no good unless motivation happens along with it.

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

That's it. Thank you. I have the nagging part down. I would prefer to call it as gentle interrogation of whether he has completed something that he complained about not having done the previous week. I have yet to try the giving an additional reason though....that might be difficult for the situations, but it just makes it into a puzzle to solve.

 

[Tamske]

I actually think Tamske's section of the dialogue puts a little too much faith in Te From my experience, those downward spiral moments occur when my Te weakens in moments of stress and lets Ne rule in ways that it shouldn't.

I put lots of faith in Te (except in my own, which is always nagging at the back of my head. I can't stop it even by doing the stupid needed things first, so why bother?)... I actually thought that in my little idea there still was too much Ne to be an ESTJ's Te-Ne loop

 

[skylights]

lol. i'm familiar with Ne-Te looping

for me it works like this:

Ne: *idea*
Te: "oh, nice. inefficient though. let's reorder it."
Ne: another possibility
Te: restructures
Ne: adds additional elements to theory
Te: builds on structure
Ne: another possibility
etc.

Fi: "hey guys you're not really paying attention to how you might be hurting the people involved in this idea "
Te: "shh Fi, our theory rocks."
Ne: "damn straight. speaking of, i just realized..."

Si: "hey, guys, we have a research paper to do."
Te: "shit, we should start on that today so we can get some sleep tonight."
Ne: "oh come on Si, this is interesting."
Te: "yeah, but Si is totally right. plus that will be interesting too."
Ne: "but not as much fun. plus we are, technically, being productive."
Te: "well not really."

Ne:
Ne: *idea*
Te: "ooh! maybe you could..."
(proceeds)

it usually lasts until Fi gets pissed off and explodes and then i feel guilty for ignoring it for so long, or when Si sounds the HEY IT'S GETTING TO THE POINT WHERE YOU HAVE TO WORK alarm. so basically Ne-Te loops cause me to ignore what i ought to be doing both in terms of realistic productivity and morality.

it's interesting to hear how this is similar/different to the loop for ESTJs.

 

[mysavior]

Any tips for courting this one: http://www.okcupid.com/profile/stillesf ?

 

[EJCC]

Fi: "hey guys you're not really paying attention to how you might be hurting the people involved in this idea "
Te: "shh Fi, our theory rocks."

it's interesting to hear how this is similar/different to the loop for ESTJs.

Definitely interesting. Esp. since the top thing I quoted is something I never do at all!! Hurt feelings? What??? Since when do other people's feelings have a role in anything??

 

[skylights]

Definitely interesting. Esp. since the top thing I quoted is something I never do at all!! Hurt feelings? What??? Since when do other people's feelings have a role in anything??

a notable time it happened to me was in college when my personality psychology class was discussing a fairly psychologically unhealthy friend of my professor's (identity kept a secret, of course). he read us a blurb his friend had written especially for the class to use and asked us to talk about what we noticed, why we thought he was having that trouble, and what we could go about addressing.

so i built up a great big theory about certain weaknesses that he was showing, and why, and how he could go about fixing them. i thought it was brilliant. people told me later that it was quite smart.

except after i laid out the whole thing to my professor, instead of being overtly pleased with me, he looked vaguely sad. he said that i had done well and then turned to the class as a whole and reminded us that we need to remember not to overlook a person's strengths, too.

basically i had gotten so excited about my idea that i had forgotten to treat the person like a person, and not as a problem to be solved. :sad:

 

[EJCC]

a notable time it happened to me was in college when my personality psychology class was discussing a fairly psychologically unhealthy friend of my professor's (identity kept a secret, of course). he read us a blurb his friend had written especially for the class to use and asked us to talk about what we noticed, why we thought he was having that trouble, and what we could go about addressing.

so i built up a great big theory about certain weaknesses that he was showing, and why, and how he could go about fixing them. i thought it was brilliant. people told me later that it was quite smart.

except after i laid out the whole thing to my professor, instead of being overtly pleased with me, he looked vaguely sad. he said that i had done well and then turned to the class as a whole and reminded us that we need to remember not to overlook a person's strengths, too.

basically i had gotten so excited about my idea that i had forgotten to treat the person like a person, and not as a problem to be solved. :sad:

... See, I read that anecdote and think "That's exactly the right way to go about it!" ... ... But that's my Te talking.


So, I have a question for people who like hearing ESTJ perspectives (and this includes other ESTJs): I really want to record another video for the TypeC Video Challenge thing, and I was wondering what I should address in the video. Is there anything you'd really want to see an ESTJ talk about in video form, vs. typed out? I'm just really bad at BSing in those situations, and I'd rather be productive with the video, you know?

Thanks, all!

 

[sui generis]

... See, I read that anecdote and think "That's exactly the right way to go about it!" ... ... But that's my Te talking.

Me too! I probably would have been right there backing you up in that class.

Is there anything you'd really want to see an ESTJ talk about in video form, vs. typed out? I'm just really bad at BSing in those situations, and I'd rather be productive with the video, you know?

Thanks, all!

Nah, I can't think of anything I would specificially want to see in video vs text, but I would definitely watch your video.

 

[Tamske]

Me too! I probably would have been right there backing you up in that class.

Me too! Fe? What Fe? There's a problem to be solved! I love solving problems!! And we're helping the person, don't we? FeTamske is happy with that...
I would point out the strenghts too when talking to that person, when that person is in front of me and I'm able to see him as a person and not a case study. I think that's the core problem I've got with your story. The professor took a person as a case study and expected you not to study the case!

 

[Little Linguist]

... See, I read that anecdote and think "That's exactly the right way to go about it!" ... ... But that's my Te talking.


So, I have a question for people who like hearing ESTJ perspectives (and this includes other ESTJs): I really want to record another video for the TypeC Video Challenge thing, and I was wondering what I should address in the video. Is there anything you'd really want to see an ESTJ talk about in video form, vs. typed out? I'm just really bad at BSing in those situations, and I'd rather be productive with the video, you know?

Thanks, all!

You definitely should! I, for one, would like to hear about how you think...how your mind works. How you go about your daily life. When you use intuition and how it works for you. I'd like to know a little bit about your development (personality) - if that's not too personal to ask. And I'd like to know how you feel and what you do with your emotions, and stuff like that?

Why? Well, for one thing it would be interesting for all of us to see how an ESTJ really thinks - break the mold and the stereotypes. And for another, I have kind of an ulterior motive because I'm still not quite sure if I might...not...just....maybe....be....an....dare I say it....? Well I just want to know how many SJ traits I have, phrase it like that.

So if you would do that, and then post me a little message when you make a new video, that would be mucho awesome.

If you find a better idea you'd rather do, have at it, too. No pressure. Just that would be interesting for me.

And I should keep better tabs on this thread, that would help, too.

 

[EJCC]

Me too! Fe? What Fe? There's a problem to be solved! I love solving problems!! And we're helping the person, don't we? FeTamske is happy with that...
I would point out the strenghts too when talking to that person, when that person is in front of me and I'm able to see him as a person and not a case study. I think that's the core problem I've got with your story. The professor took a person as a case study and expected you not to study the case!

That was my issue too!!! Why bring someone up as a scientific case study when you're just going to be depressed when you hear the accurate results?!? If you're gonna do SCIENCE, you gotta be SCIENCE-Y. And science-y-ness means keepin' your feelings to yourself.

You definitely should! I, for one, would like to hear about how you think...how your mind works. How you go about your daily life. When you use intuition and how it works for you. I'd like to know a little bit about your development (personality) - if that's not too personal to ask. And I'd like to know how you feel and what you do with your emotions, and stuff like that?

Why? Well, for one thing it would be interesting for all of us to see how an ESTJ really thinks - break the mold and the stereotypes.

It would be awesome to try and break those stereotypes... but, and I hate to be high maintenance (srsly - I do hate to be), but I have a hard time with that question. Not that I don't want to answer it, but it's just so open-ended. People have even asked me that before on this thread (lol, maybe it was you who asked it the last time too ), and it always goes like

Person: "How do you think? How do you go about your day? What goes through your head??"
Me: "Um... ... I dunno...."

So maybe, if it's not too much trouble, if you could elaborate a tiny bit more? Pretty plz?

And for another, I have kind of an ulterior motive because I'm still not quite sure if I might...not...just....maybe....be....an....dare I say it....? Well I just want to know how many SJ traits I have, phrase it like that.

Dude. After watching that one video of you, I'm 99% positive that you are NOT ESTJ. I don't know if it's even possible for an ESTJ to have that much goofy energy.

Also, I made a new friend a couple of weeks ago who reminds me of you a little bit, and I've typed her as ENFP.

So if you would do that, and then post me a little message when you make a new video, that would be mucho awesome.

If you find a better idea you'd rather do, have at it, too. No pressure. Just that would be interesting for me.

And I should keep better tabs on this thread, that would help, too.

Yes, I'll post a message; No, I won't think of new questions (since I fail at being creative in this regard ); and yes, you should totally check this thread out more often.

 

[Fidelia]

LL, I think you're an ENFP with super Te.

 

[sui generis]

If you're gonna do SCIENCE, you gotta be SCIENCE-Y. And science-y-ness means keepin' your feelings to yourself.

I have a hard time with that question. Not that I don't want to answer it, but it's just so open-ended. People have even asked me that before on this thread (lol, maybe it was you who asked it the last time too ), and it always goes like

Person: "How do you think? How do you go about your day? What goes through your head??"
Me: "Um... ... I dunno...."

And I never know what to say to that because I don't know what's different in MY head from others' heads. I mean, I've talked with people of different types, which I also find fascinating, but I've never been in anyone's head except for my own.

Dude. After watching that one video of you, I'm 99% positive that you are NOT ESTJ. I don't know if it's even possible for an ESTJ to have that much goofy energy.

OK, I haven't watched the video, but I've got to say that there are times that my goofy energy is off the charts. But I've already established that I'm a strange ESTJ.

 

[EJCC]

And I never know what to say to that because I don't know what's different in MY head from others' heads. I mean, I've talked with people of different types, which I also find fascinating, but I've never been in anyone's head except for my own.

I totally get this. It's so hard to tell what's "normal" - When I talk on here about things that I do, I alternate between hearing "that's totally normal" and "whoa, that's so different", from people. Pretty much impossible to know until you bring it up.

OK, I haven't watched the video, but I've got to say that there are times that my goofy energy is off the charts. But I've already established that I'm a strange ESTJ.

Okay, two things:

1. You're not a strange ESTJ. You actually remind me a lot of You'reWrongI'mRight, sometimes, and I'm 99% sure that the reason why is that both of you are sillier/goofier on the internet than in real life. (Well, actually, YWIR is pretty hyper in her videos, but she's told me that she's a lot more calm and Te-ish most of the time.) That's the case even for me. Also, you're an 8 and I'm a 1, which automatically makes me much more subdued/restrained than you. In short, we're all normal here

2. That video is beyond anything you can imagine, man. It's like - take the most bizarrely energetic a person can be, and then keep that energy maintained at its EXACT level for like FIVE STRAIGHT MINUTES. It's awesome. Watch it.