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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #2751
    Super Moderator Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meowcat View Post
    Did you really expect that I wanted anyone to tell me what would create meaning and fun for ME?

    How could you misunderstand my question so much? Who the fuck on earth would have such a stupid request that someone else tell them that ???? It's just annoying.

    I only wanted to ask about what it is like for you - you did answer that tho' eventually
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  2. #2752
    blackbird, fly Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I've had close friendships with those types, briefly. (It's also possible that one of my closest friends is actually an ENTP and not an ENFP, after years of self-typing as ENFP.) I tend to struggle with ENTPs when they are trolly - which is often, particularly when they're young. They don't understand why their debate style makes me angry, and I don't understand why they're so inclined to, I guess, cook and eat sacred cows for fun?
    I think this is an NTP thing, although the INTPs may mostly do this online. At any rate, as someone who may also be an ambiverted ENTP, I would like to weigh in this. I'll preface this by saying that there are times when I too find the behavior of going after sacred cows irritating, usually when they have nothing of value to replace it with.

    I think there is usually more to it than just doing it for fun (although they may derive enjoyment from the process). Personally, when in my late adolescence, I started to feel betrayed by (earlier in life) trusting in ideas imposed on me by authority figures that my own experiences led me to question. If I found that the authority figures can't justify their ideas, that only makes the anger and sense of betrayal worse. Later, in early adulthood, this became a tendency to disparage or have no respect for ideas people believed without knowing why they believed them. I think there is a good chance a lot of NTPs go through something similar. This internal feeling might manifest in a desire to go after those ideas whenever they are expressed. I think the NTP will often feel that they are doing something good by trying to lead others away from falsehood.

    As I got older, I found that this wasn't always a worthy enterprise to engage in, and even if it was, I've found that often a less confrontational approach is more likely to be effective.

    Also, keep in mind that the "wrong Ideas" the NTP may have a distaste for do not necessarily need to be religion. In my particular case, religion was not a big part of that at all.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi


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  3. #2753
    Senior Member Cupcakemonster's Avatar
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    @EJCC appreciate the responses! Your comment about ENTPs made me laugh, because my uncle just commented to me today about how much I love debates, that he feels like I say certain things just to get people talking, & that I seem to play devil's advocate. Although, I believe that I'm probably more of an ESTP than an ENTP.

    Wow, this thread really has to be one of the longest running threads on this site.
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  4. #2754
    The Devil of TypoC EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    I think this is an NTP thing, although the INTPs may mostly do this online. At any rate, as someone who may also be an ambiverted ENTP, I would like to weigh in this. I'll preface this by saying that there are times when I too find the behavior of going after sacred cows irritating, usually when they have nothing of value to replace it with.

    I think there is usually more to it than just doing it for fun (although they may derive enjoyment from the process). Personally, when in my late adolescence, I started to feel betrayed by (earlier in life) trusting in ideas imposed on me by authority figures that my own experiences led me to question. If I found that the authority figures can't justify their ideas, that only makes the anger and sense of betrayal worse. Later, in early adulthood, this became a tendency to disparage or have no respect for ideas people believed without knowing why they believed them. I think there is a good chance a lot of NTPs go through something similar. This internal feeling might manifest in a desire to go after those ideas whenever they are expressed. I think the NTP will often feel that they are doing something good by trying to lead others away from falsehood.

    As I got older, I found that this wasn't always a worthy enterprise to engage in, and even if it was, I've found that often a less confrontational approach is more likely to be effective.

    Also, keep in mind that the "wrong Ideas" the NTP may have a distaste for do not necessarily need to be religion. In my particular case, religion was not a big part of that at all.
    Thanks for this - this meshes well with my impression, but is (obviously!) more charitably stated. Although, for reasons I'm about to get into, I'm not sure if confrontation is the issue, at least with ExTJs - we generally don't mind confrontation.

    In general I think we're both articulating a Te vs. Ti problem - a lot of Te-users have similar experiences to what you described, where they question the general norm and build a new moral code for themselves to follow, but the way we express that new worldview is, well, very concise and narrow and linear. I think ExTJs may misunderstand the expansiveness and devil's-advocating of Ti in this context. In general it seems like a major Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te communication breakdown can be Fi/Te misinterpreting Fe/Ti as "playing games" or "manipulating" when it's just another form of communication other than "X, therefore Y, therefore Z."

    Many experiences I had in my early twenties with ENTPs my age had me wondering things like "if he feels this way about it, why won't he own up to it?" or "I'd respect this person more if he stopped playing games and just told me where he stood on the issues he picks fights about."
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  5. #2755
    blackbird, fly Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Thanks for this - this meshes well with my impression, but is (obviously!) more charitably stated. Although, for reasons I'm about to get into, I'm not sure if confrontation is the issue, at least with ExTJs - we generally don't mind confrontation.

    In general I think we're both articulating a Te vs. Ti problem - a lot of Te-users have similar experiences to what you described, where they question the general norm and build a new moral code for themselves to follow, but the way we express that new worldview is, well, very concise and narrow and linear. I think ExTJs may misunderstand the expansiveness and devil's-advocating of Ti in this context. In general it seems like a major Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te communication breakdown can be Fi/Te misinterpreting Fe/Ti as "playing games" or "manipulating" when it's just another form of communication other than "X, therefore Y, therefore Z."

    Many experiences I had in my early twenties with ENTPs my age had me wondering things like "if he feels this way about it, why won't he own up to it?" or "I'd respect this person more if he stopped playing games and just told me where he stood on the issues he picks fights about."
    Sometimes that's because the goal isn't to express what we think. It's to see what the other person's reasons our, and if there's something there that could change our minds. Granted, i"ve found better ways of doing that than outright obvious debating. One thing I've learned how to do is state where I am at the moment I make that post, and then state where I take issue, and then ask questions to find out if there's any way I've been missing. Sharing something first establishes trust which helps prevent knee jerk reactions. Granted, this requires a certain vulnerability on my part as well, which meant I had to be at a certain place to even attempt this. This is probably why younger NTPs might engage in things in a more obtuse way; I suspect it's a form of self-protection. I would guess that in many cases they feel reluctant to put themselves out there and say what they actually think at that moment.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi


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  6. #2756
    The Devil of TypoC EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    Sometimes that's because the goal isn't to express what we think. It's to see what the other person's reasons our, and if there's something there that could change our minds. Granted, i"ve found better ways of doing that than outright obvious debating. One thing I've learned how to do is state where I am at the moment I make that post, and then state where I take issue, and then ask questions to find out if there's any way I've been missing. Sharing something first establishes trust which helps prevent knee jerk reactions. Granted, this requires a certain vulnerability on my part as well, which meant I had to be at a certain place to even attempt this. This is probably why younger NTPs might engage in things in a more obtuse way; I suspect it's a form of self-protection. I would guess that in many cases they feel reluctant to put themselves out there and say what they actually think at that moment.
    Oh this is interesting! Wouldn't have even occurred to me to think of that as vulnerability tbh. Very helpful.
    ”We know a little about a lot of things; just enough to make us dangerous.”

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  7. #2757
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    The context of the question (Falcarius asking) seemed like it would need to be applicable more broadly than just for me. I was still in that headspace when I answered.

    Would appreciate it if you didn't snap at me like that the next time we have a misunderstanding.
    OK I saw only today that I got responses (bc I got one in another thread).

    It was more broad about ESTJs, with you as a specific ESTJ example. So since it was about what ESTJs are like, that clearly has nothing to do with anyone wanting to be told about things that no one should be told about and where no one should ever be as crazy as to ask others for the answer on them.

    So yeah, I would appreciate it if you did not assume such crazy things. That's not just a misunderstanding, that's simply too crazy to even assume. Then I won't snap, as simple as that.

    Feel free to dislike me over this tho'. Have a good day.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    Do not chime in about things that are not your business.
    Se/Te/Si > Ti > Fi > Fe/Ni > Ne

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