[ISTJ] Why why why are ISTJ sooooo evasive?

[Fidelia]

I don't see my ISTJ dad engaging with anyone. He observes in a social setting and hangs around, but doesn't expend much energy asking the other person about themselves, nor does he disclose anything that would allow him to get closer to anyone. He would talk about exactly the same kind of stuff with the next door neighbour, a stranger, my mum or one of the grandkids. It's been a family joke that he would have made an excellent spy, due to the evasive kinds of answers he gives even to inoccuous questions. I think he is lonely, but from what I can see doesn't want to expend the energy it would take to get to know any of us better. I've come to terms with it, but I think it continues to be a huge frustration and disappointment to my mother, who is committed to the marriage, but there is very little intimacy of any sort. At this point, she's given up trying a million different ways and concluded it just isn't in him to do it. Do you think this is a result of upbringing/past experiences, or just a natural tendency of his personality type? I realize our household is drenched in Fe (My mum is ENFJ and I'm INFJ). Maybe that contributes? Who knows.

 

[Mole]

I don't see my ISTJ dad engaging with anyone. He observes in a social setting and hangs around, but doesn't expend much energy asking the other person about themselves, nor does he disclose anything that would allow him to get closer to anyone. He would talk about exactly the same kind of stuff with the next door neighbour, a stranger, my mum or one of the grandkids. It's been a family joke that he would have made an excellent spy, due to the evasive kinds of answers he gives even to inoccuous questions. I think he is lonely, but from what I can see doesn't want to expend the energy it would take to get to know any of us better. I've come to terms with it, but I think it continues to be a huge frustration and disappointment to my mother, who is committed to the marriage, but there is very little intimacy of any sort. At this point, she's given up trying a million different ways and concluded it just isn't in him to do it. Do you think this is a result of upbringing/past experiences, or just a natural tendency of his personality type? I realize our household is drenched in Fe (My mum is ENFJ and I'm INFJ). Maybe that contributes? Who knows.

Why do I feel on reading this that there is something missing?

Is it because it is the voice of the father missing?

Or is it because there is something missing in the text? Is it some lunacae in the text, a kind of blind spot, so well concealed even from itself?

Yes, it seems the text is going to a great deal of trouble to conceal something. What is it?

 

[Fidelia]

Believe it or don't believe it Mole. I love my father dearly. But I don't understand him. I'd like a different relationship with him, but if that is imposing something type related or expecting what is not possible then I need to give it up. I don't usually get the chance to talk to other ISTJs about this, as they are a rarity here.

 

[Mole]

Believe it or don't believe it Mole. I love my father dearly. But I don't understand him. I'd like a different relationship with him, but if that is imposing something type related or expecting what is not possible then I need to give it up. I don't usually get the chance to talk to other ISTJs about this, as they are a rarity here.

I'm not an ISTJ so if you would prefer I wont post here anymore.

However I have been reading your posts for a long time and trying to understand you. So learning about your relationship with your father is sure to tell me more about you.

One would think that the best way to find out about you would be to ask you, but I think you are magnificantly and exquisitely defended so it wouldn't work.

So all I can do is look for the gaps in what you say and in what you feel.

And of course it is these very gaps you wish to avoid.

 

[Fidelia]

I think I'm actually pretty open. I am somewhat confused though as to why you have targeted me in particular as an object of study.

 

[Ginkgo]

My ISTJ dad can be passive aggressive, but in a lot of ways it seems like he feels that life has defeated him. He's given up on most things aside from garnering money and troubleshooting about practical issues. I think shyness shapes his introversion, and introversion shapes his shyness.

I don't think his shyness is the biggest obstacle I have when I try to connect with him. The most daunting barrier between us is padded down by the differences in our values. We find it difficult to share experiences and derive the same meaning from them. He's conservative, rigid, remote, and not very open to new experiences.

I find it easier to touch base with him by doing very classic things like fishing, hiking, playing pool, or something along those lines. It breaks the ice and leaves him more open.

 

[Fidelia]

My ISTJ dad can be passive aggressive, but in a lot of ways it seems like he feels that life has defeated him. He's given up on most things aside from garnering money and troubleshooting about practical issues. I think shyness shapes his introversion, and introversion shapes his shyness.

I don't think his shyness is the biggest obstacle I have when I try to connect with him. The most daunting barrier between us is padded down by the differences in our values. We find it difficult to share experiences and derive the same meaning from them. He's conservative, rigid, remote, and not very open to new experiences.

I find it easier to touch base with him by doing very classic things like fishing, hiking, playing pool, or something along those lines. It breaks the ice and leaves him more open.

Yeah, I see shades of my dad in that too. There is very much an attitude that others are just better communicators than him and it's too late to fix anything anyhow. He kind of lives in a parallel world to the rest of us in the house, doing what he feels comfortable doing - keeping books, visiting a couple of older people a week or hanging out in the basement researching his ancestors. If there's a meal or something interesting going on, he'll come up. Otherwise, it's mostly only basic greetings, some superficial talk about the weather and that's about it.

What bothers me I guess is that his activities are at the expense of relationships to anyone who might need him and I think he can show more interest when motivated to do so. I think there's enough underconfidence that he has not goals or plans of his own, doesn't see that he can offer anyone else something they need and doesn't really want to be shifted out of his routine. Most things come down to whether or not he feels like doing them, rather than what is needed to allow the relationship to develop (is this a Fe/Fi divide in perspective?).

In some ways he wants to relate to my mum like a really responsible oldest son - doing little chores around the house, running errands, but leaving her with the weight of daily business, building relationships with friends, children and grandchildren and with decision making (wanting to ride on her coattails and reap the benfits of that) and not dealing with the relationship stuff that comes up or taking equal responsibility for their relationship or for their future in any sense. To outsiders it appears that my mum is just bossy, but that is not really it. She spent years hoping he would take the lead and trying different ways to allow him to be in that role. In some ways their values and strengths are very complimentary, but the continual desire to spend time with those who do not care about a relationship or who have expectations, or want to find shared meaning together has greatly impacted not only their relationship, but his relationship to almost everyone around him, even though he is a generous, go with the flow, benign kind of presence.

I'm certainly thankful for the good I see in him and for the fact that he always has supported us in the concrete ways that he knew how to. I just would like to understand if there is just not an interest/need/capacity to have anything closer, or if it is something he wishes for in some way, but has given up on getting due to a lack of confidence in his abilities or frustration at something we're doing. Depending on which it is, my response would be different.

In case it appears that I am complaining about him, I want you to know that I love and value my dad. However, I do notice that the kind of people my sister and I are attracted to has been in some sense a pendulum swing to his passivity and non-verbalization. At the same time, it's interesting to note that my mother is and ENFJ and my dad is ISTJ. My longest relationship has been to someone who was a confident appearing (but still non-communicative) ESTJ while I am an INFJ. I don't think it is a coincidence. Before getting into another relationship, I would like to understand that a little better and I think understanding where my dad is coming from is a part of that.

 

[Ginkgo]

Yeah, I see shades of my dad in that too. There is very much an attitude that others are just better communicators than him and it's too late to fix anything anyhow. He kind of lives in a parallel world to the rest of us in the house, doing what he feels comfortable doing - keeping books, visiting a couple of older people a week or hanging out in the basement researching his ancestors. If there's a meal or something interesting going on, he'll come up. Otherwise, it's mostly only basic greetings, some superficial talk about the weather and that's about it.

Your dad sounds a bit more reclusive than mine. That is, unless he works ridiculous night-shifts every other week.

What bothers me I guess is that his activities are at the expense of relationships to anyone who might need him and I think he can show more interest when motivated to do so. I think there's enough underconfidence that he has not goals or plans of his own, doesn't see that he can offer anyone else something they need and doesn't really want to be shifted out of his routine. Most things come down to whether or not he feels like doing them, rather than what is needed to allow the relationship to develop (is this a Fe/Fi divide in perspective?).

I feel similarly about my dad. I'm not going to lie, both my parents tend to be generous people; in fact they often have to bat that generosity back in a cage in order to prevent being taken advantage of. But my dad rarely offers his time to compromise with anyone on a more emotional level. To him, the machine has to continue along its path, even at the expense of honesty. He doesn't see dialogue as inherently productive, while my mom does. I honestly think, to an extent, this is where Fi/Te perspectives and Ti/Fe perspectives tend to differ. Te takes into account how the individual can cause something to happen immediately and in an orderly fashion, as if there's an unspoken regiment that everyone's assumed to understand thoroughly. So, especially with the introverted type, crucial information is omitted.

In some ways he wants to relate to my mum like a really responsible oldest son - doing little chores around the house, running errands, but leaving her with the weight of daily business, building relationships with friends, children and grandchildren and with decision making (wanting to ride on her coattails and reap the benfits of that) and not dealing with the relationship stuff that comes up or taking equal responsibility for their relationship or for their future in any sense. To outsiders it appears that my mum is just bossy, but that is not really it. She spent years hoping he would take the lead and trying different ways to allow him to be in that role. In some ways their values and strengths are very complimentary, but the continual desire to spend time with those who do not care about a relationship or who have expectations, or want to find shared meaning together has greatly impacted not only their relationship, but his relationship to almost everyone around him, even though he is a generous, go with the flow, benign kind of presence.

I notice almost the same dynamic between my folks. In a way, their attitudes are paradoxical and their love languages are different. For instance, like your mom, mine often attempts to open different venues for my dad in order to let him be the "leader" in a social way. I mean "social" not only in the context of affairs that exist in the peripherals of the family, but also in the middle of it. However, the fact that she possessed this attitude suggests that she believes she has the authority to evaluate his leadership abilities. Since their "love languages" don't always match, this rarely happens and their interactions basically just escalate without any real communication. On the other side of the coin, my dad attempts to take a "behind the scenes" leadership role by managing finances and complains that my mom doesn't calculate expenses enough. So he ultimately relinquishes any authority that would follow from mutual respect.

I mean, I can see where both of them come from, and my gut instinct is to take sides, but doing so would stifle legitimate resolution.

I'm certainly thankful for the good I see in him and for the fact that he always has supported us in the concrete ways that he knew how to. I just would like to understand if there is just not an interest/need/capacity to have anything closer, or if it is something he wishes for in some way, but has given up on getting due to a lack of confidence in his abilities or frustration at something we're doing. Depending on which it is, my response would be different.

In case it appears that I am complaining about him, I want you to know that I love and value my dad. However, I do notice that the kind of people my sister and I are attracted to has been in some sense a pendulum swing to his passivity and non-verbalization. At the same time, it's interesting to note that my mother is and ENFJ and my dad is ISTJ. My longest relationship has been to someone who was a confident appearing (but still non-communicative) ESTJ while I am an INFJ. I don't think it is a coincidence. Before getting into another relationship, I would like to understand that a little better and I think understanding where my dad is coming from is a part of that.

If you didn't love your dad, you wouldn't be concerned about him. I identify more with my father than my mother, but there are traces of both in my character; my mom suffers from her own difficulties but ultimately I've picked up more than a few tricks from her, which I am grateful for. I think she's ESFJ, but she sort of insists than she's ENFJ. In some ways, she doesn't hold a candle to an ENFJ I dated, so I'm even more inclined to say she's ESFJ. I don't think the women I've been attracted to are a consequence of coincidence either. There's always some synchronicity there.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, my dad's house centred around work. I don't think any of them really related to each other on a deeper level. He, being the oldest, was probably the most impacted. He also had several extended stays in the hospital at a young age (tonsils and appendix at a toddler kind of age and stage - they did those surgeries more routinely back then). Stays that were long enough for my grandma to comment how much his hair had grown since the last time she saw him. Anyway, she was going to visit him, but the piano tuner came and suggested that it would only upset the child, so she took her coat off and stayed home! He also had to spend two years halfway across the country in junior high, as he was asthmatic and allergic to grain dust (they lived on a farm) and needed reprieve. When he came back, his brother that was more outgoing, bigger, a year younger and more confident had taken his place in some ways, while at the same time feeling that my dad got more attention from the parents.

He and my mum married when my dad was 21. He greatly admired her and liked the warmth of her family. During the early years of their marriage though, he spent all of the time he did have at work. By the time I was born (I'm 11 years younger than the oldest child in our family), he had a different kind of job and hardly knew what to do with himself now that he didn't have to be at work all the time. He pretty much just filled in those spaces with doing books for various places. At that time though, my mum still hoped that things could change and that if she just tried communicating a different way, he would open up a little more.

Around the time that my brother and sister were getting married, a lot of things happened (I think that's a hard time in many people's relationships - they realize some things are unlikely to ever change. His inaction also left her hanging out to dry in a couple of ways and she was left unprotected) and I think she lost hope. He still admires her and loves her a lot, but their love languages are very different and he is unlikely to make any changes to adapt or to talk about it. She has mostly quit caring in the same way because she doesn't want to bleed to death internally, but then some things she says have a bit of a hard edge because she is so frustrated (and disappointed that it isn't different and she's committed to the marriage and realizes that it won't fix anything really to split up and will just create new problems) and I think that only makes him feel more sure that it can't change and just burrow deeper inside himself.

Everything is generally cordial in our house and I think unless certain exchanges bring it to his attention, it appears not to really bother him. Generally that sort of thing isn't on his radar and if anything is brought up (whether emotional or otherwise), his memory of it seems hazy (and it's ever been thus, so it's not a getting older thing). At the same time, I think my mum's approach sometimes doesn't work that well and she needs someone who will argue back a little bit or challenge her. She's not blameless, but I do think the lion's share of her response is borne out of his emotional unavailability.

 

[WALMART]

This thread is reaffirming my interest in never producing children.

Also the forever relationship part.

Sigh.

 

[Fidelia]

Oh, I don't think it's so bad. I do think it's helpful though for people to figure their own selves out and also to wait until they've had a chance to develop a bit as adults. I wouldn't say my parents don't care deeply about each other. It's just that they're at an impasse. There are a lot more tools now out there than there were 50 years ago when they got married.

I also think that some types are satisfied with a different level of intimacy than others. It's sometimes difficulty when you get one person for whom it means the world to with another person for whom it's less important.

 

[Fidelia]

Oh, I don't think it's so bad. I do think it's helpful though for people to figure their own selves out and also to wait until they've had a chance to develop a bit as adults. I wouldn't say my parents don't care deeply about each other. It's just that they're at an impasse. There are a lot more tools now out there than there were 50 years ago when they got married.

I also think that some types are satisfied with a different level of intimacy than others. It's sometimes difficulty when you get one person for whom it means the world to with another person for whom it's less important.

As an older adult, I can now recognize a lot of great things my dad brings to the relationship that not just everyone has. I think when I was younger I just assumed those things, plus some of the things on my wishlist. It doesn't really work that way. Every type has strengths and corresponding flip sides.

 

[Mole]

I think I'm actually pretty open. I am somewhat confused though as to why you have targeted me in particular as an object of study.

Well, you present walls of text that present you as a well balanced nice person. So should I take you at face value or be a little suspicious?

 

[Fidelia]

I know lots of well-balanced nice people. Why be suspicious unless someone gives you reason to feel you ought to be?

 

[mrcockburn]

Become a tax collector. That's the only way they'll open up.

 

[Jstrazz]

[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] maybe keep the observation and analyzing in a more private setting with just you and [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] . I've found it's not best to judge or question someone when he or she is sharing something this personal.
Regardless, guys, ISTJ's are the most private MBTI type. They are great for practical care, but if we're going to be completely frank, if you're looking for someone to grow close to and deep with, look elsewhere. My mother and I are both ISTJ's and we connect through mutual trust. If you confide in an ISTJ, it will make them more comfortable (not entirely) with you in the arena of trust. Keep persisting: sometimes ISTJ's will put on a facade, but secretly they wish that someone would keep pushing and eventually breach the high, solid walls that surround their inner souls. [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] , that is most unfortunate that you feel you have not had the connection with your father that you wish you had. I would tell him that, make him feel more accountable. This may sound negative but it's not. You are entitled to your feelings and he should, because of his internal sense of duty, put forth more effort to fulfill those needs a little more. Just give him the peace of mind to know that you are someone who will appreciate his candidness should he open up at all to you and that you are a trustworthy person.

 

[Mole]

I know lots of well-balanced nice people. Why be suspicious unless someone gives you reason to feel you ought to be?

Well, I dance around Fidelia. She seems so nice, it's as though I am holding my breath.

Daring not to breath, I open my eyes wide to see what I might see.

I might see myself reflected in Fidelia, or I might look through the reflection into the deep pond that's Fidelia.

 

[Cimarron]

I don't see my ISTJ dad engaging with anyone. He observes in a social setting and hangs around, but doesn't expend much energy asking the other person about themselves ... I think he is lonely, but from what I can see doesn't want to expend the energy it would take to get to know any of us better.

Sounds like where I am now. Except I'm not married. I generally am totally open to getting to know people, but I keep hoping they'll do all the "heavy lifting" of expending social energy, initiating, and I'll fill in the gaps with responses. Additionally, been working on giving what I call "extra information," which I don't instinctively give in conversation because I think "who cares?", but it's kind of needed to keep conversation going, so there you go.

 

[tkae.]

I know. I guess my main hesitation when there is talk (not just your post, but a generalized assumption around here) that S's are kind of empty or blank inside, not having a rich inner world or deep self, etc. can suggest a kind of elitism. Even if an Sensor doesn't value fostering an inner imaginative world, being confronted with a feeling of exclusion is not typically pleasant.

I think you're nit picking. I think, being an INFx, you know exactly what they were talking about, but are choosing to take issue with it because of how it might appear to Sensors instead of based on any actual misunderstanding.

Moving on, I agree that xSTJs don't have internal depth that the OP is looking for. By definition, xSTJs don't have the functions that send them into autopsy over every emotion they feel about everything from the color of the neighbor's mailbox to the heat index of the BBQ they went to last Thursday.

xSTJs are very functional and practical. When they feel emotions, they very often shelve them in favor of going on with their day, accomplishing what it is that's on their agenda. In older posts I've seen, ISTJs list on average one or two moments that were truly emotionally overwhelming, often commenting that they don't see a reason to stop what they're doing just because they have a sudden emotion.

So of course when you probe them for their deep analysis of their emotional situation, it isn't there.

"How are you?"
"Fine."
"You don't seem fine. Are you sad?"
"Yeah."
"Then you're not fine."
"I'm not sick, so nothing to complain about."
"Why are you sad?"
"Because... chemicals in the brain?"

 

[Cimarron]

Although you could say that less frequent moments of deep, powerful emotion make them feel more powerful when they do happen. In theory.