[MBTI General] I need to do this.

[Chimerical]

SJ's all seem to irritate the living hell out of me.
Mostly the concept of following a rule that doesn't make sense simply because it's a rule without ever thinking maybe we don't need this rule. And the desire for so much social status.

But, I think I'm wrong for thinking like that. Sure They irritate me quite a bit and I get along just fine with SP's, NT's, and NF's which would, logically, give me a good enough reason to say "fuck it, I have enough friends I don't care."
But I really just want to understand the SJ's a little better. Even though I'm the minority in the grander scheme of things I would still like to see the other point of view so that I'm not the one descriminating, wrongfully, against others for their personality.

 

[entropie]

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyMCG0dWeQA"]xD[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Take Five]

We, or at least I, believe in rules because we (I) recognize their usefulness in organizing the world as we organize ourselves and our surroundings. A place for everything and everything in its place. There are reasons for the rules we follow, or else we would eliminate them slowly, maybe for some rules you just don't see the purpose. Explaining reasons may be difficult for some. As for social status, that may be more of an individual thing.

 

[Night]

You're missing out, man.

ISTJs are badass.

 

[entropie]

My ENTJ dad said a nice thing today. He said: "Why do young people need to smoke pot ? What does it give them ? To me the greatest thing is to drive in a very nice Mercedes down the road at the cliff and then go into a fine restaurant and eat a very huuuge walnut ice cream !"

I of course responded: "And how would the ice cream taste, if you knew the guy was high, when he invented it ?"

 

[Cimarron]

But I really just want to understand the SJ's a little better.

You can hang around here more often. We'd be glad to talk with you.

Has reading some of these threads helped understand us?

 

[sarah]

SJ's all seem to irritate the living hell out of me.
Mostly the concept of following a rule that doesn't make sense simply because it's a rule without ever thinking maybe we don't need this rule. And the desire for so much social status.

But, I think I'm wrong for thinking like that. Sure They irritate me quite a bit and I get along just fine with SP's, NT's, and NF's which would, logically, give me a good enough reason to say "fuck it, I have enough friends I don't care."
But I really just want to understand the SJ's a little better. Even though I'm the minority in the grander scheme of things I would still like to see the other point of view so that I'm not the one descriminating, wrongfully, against others for their personality.

Um, you could start by throwing out your depressing definition of what it means to be an SJ? And then how about finding people who fit the SJ type pattern but who don't think all rules make sense simply because they exist (hint: not all SJs are rulemongers). And you could also find ones who don't think social status is a necessary goal to pursue.

Seriously, there are wonderful SJs out there, who are generous and kind and non-materialistic, but you're probably not even recognizing them as SJs because you have such a negative view of what it means to have that temperament. May I suggest you start by being friendly with some of the people here in this group, and asking them what it's like to be them rather than telling them that their temperament is so awful?

 

[entropie]

Wait !

Did she just say:

"Um, you could start by throwing out your depression ?"

Really not my day today, I drove over a red light today and this time it was unwillingly, I somehow thought it to be green -.-

 

[iwakar]

SJs are certainly capable of questioning the status quo.

My good friend (an ISTJ) and erratic forum member has a business degree, loves fish, sported a mohawk for a time, and quietly rawks tattoos of many varieties beneath his business attire.

We're only as limited as our perspectives.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Similar to TakeFive.

To others it may seem as if we're following a rule for the sake of it. However most SJs actually operate on:

"If it ain't broke, then let it be"
"Most things exist for a reason (usually for our benefit)"
"Society is running, Therefore the rules are working."
"We'll continue to follow the rules unless there's a better method"

SJs are defined as being reluctant to change, therefore you'd need to have pretty damn good evidence and reasoning for them to try a different method. Why do we dislike change? No idea. Personally I think it's a manifestation of Si.

 

[Athenian200]

SJ's all seem to irritate the living hell out of me.
Mostly the concept of following a rule that doesn't make sense simply because it's a rule without ever thinking maybe we don't need this rule.

I probably can't speak for SJs, but I know why I do this at times (as a J myself). Because it's the path of least resistence. If I actually sat and thought/inquired about why I followed every rule or procedure that I follow, it would take me that much longer to get things done, and in all likelihood I'd end up needing to do it the same way anyhow. Because typically either the systems are set up by people that way for a good reason, or because of the way the system is set up, I have to go through it as it is in order to accomplish what I want to.

So in my case, it's because I see no point in spending more of my energy trying to fix something than I would just using it the way it is. Especially if it doesn't belong to me, and I get little or nothing out of fixing it.

Don't get me wrong, I've been somewhat annoyed by situations where I was expected to do something like "fill out a request form to obtain another request form," or repeat the same information on multiple forms at the same time, but the thing is, it takes less time to just DO it than it does to complain about it or conceive of a better way. I sometimes question or complain about such things after the fact, but in the moment I just follow it in order to get accomplished what I'm trying to do, and make sure everything is in the clear, taken care of, there's nothing left undone that could mess up what I'm doing, etc.

So I would say that for me, it's about conserving time/energy, and being more focused on achieving my goals than on making things better.

I'm just as curious as you are to know why the SJs do it, though. Is it more than that for them, or roughly the same things?

 

[entropie]

SJs are defined as being reluctant to change, therefore you'd need to have pretty damn good evidence and reasoning for them to try a different method. Why do we dislike change? No idea. Personally I think it's a manifestation of Si.

You are giving me the creeps.

the ESTJ is pretty open to change.

the ISTJ needs to find out for himself.

the ISFJ I dont understand.

and the ESFJ is the changeinator ever. My boss is one, he always corrects my work, when I am done and he could have told me from the beginning how he wanted it, but its ok. I like his style

 

[sarah]

I probably can't speak for SJs, but I know why I do this at times (as a J myself). Because it's the path of least resistence. If I actually sat and thought/inquired about why I followed every rule or procedure that I follow, it would take me that much longer to get things done, and in all likelihood I'd end up needing to do it the same way anyhow. Because typically either the systems are set up by people that way for a good reason, or because of the way the system is set up, I have to go through it as it is in order to accomplish what I want to.
So in my case, it's because I see no point in spending more of my energy trying to fix something than I would just using it the way it is. Especially if it doesn't belong to me, and I get little or nothing out of fixing it.

Don't get me wrong, I've been somewhat annoyed by situations where I was expected to do something like "fill out a request form to obtain another request form," or repeat the same information on multiple forms at the same time, but the thing is, it takes less time to just DO it than it does to complain about it or conceive of a better way....

The SJs in my family would totally agree with you about how annoying it is to have to follow pointless protocol. Seriously, they hate that as much as everyone else does!

I don't understand why SJs as a group are thought to be in favor of rules and procedures that have no purpose. My ISTJ sister is totally in favor of scrapping any and all rules that don't make sense and that don't actually deliver what they're supposed to. But she'd also be in favor of new rules and procedures being created and put into practice that DO work and that DO make everyone's lives easier. And she'd be willing to work long and hard serving on committees that make up these rules, because she loves to create order out of chaos, as well as Make Things Sensible. The point is that everyone's life must be made easier by rules, not harder.

SJs can care about efficiency too. For them, efficiency lies in knowing what to expect. And they appreciate all rules that exist to ensure everyone's safety and satisfaction.

 

[entropie]

I go kill some random people with my lightsaber

 

[Moiety]

Maybe it has to do with arrogance or, rather, the lack thereof. As someone who is constantly at odds with rules I like to see myself as someone on the same level or above the brightest minds who ever lived. And who's going to prove me wrong? My point being that there is no point in submitting myself to something so volatile and potentially incorrect (seeing as how the brightest minds of yesterday are often proven to be mistaken) as "rules".


Obviously the previous paragraph is to be taken anecdotally and not to the extreme; but other people can only bind you if you let them, and who is morally superior enough to control my life?

 

[Snow Turtle]

You are giving me the creeps.

the ESTJ is pretty open to change.

the ISTJ needs to find out for himself.

the ISFJ I dont understand.

and the ESFJ is the changeinator ever. My boss is one, he always corrects my work, when I am done and he could have told me from the beginning how he wanted it, but its ok. I like his style

>_> The creepy message is lost upon me.

The above don't really contradict my point about SJs wanting to find a model system that they want to stick by. Personally one thing I don't do is change for the sake of change which seems more inherent in other preferences. It really is seeking my own comfort zone which is also most efficient.

Bleh... masses of generalisations.

 

[Snow Turtle]

I probably can't speak for SJs, but I know why I do this at times (as a J myself). Because it's the path of least resistence. If I actually sat and thought/inquired about why I followed every rule or procedure that I follow, it would take me that much longer to get things done, and in all likelihood I'd end up needing to do it the same way anyhow. Because typically either the systems are set up by people that way for a good reason, or because of the way the system is set up, I have to go through it as it is in order to accomplish what I want to.

So in my case, it's because I see no point in spending more of my energy trying to fix something than I would just using it the way it is. Especially if it doesn't belong to me, and I get little or nothing out of fixing it.

Don't get me wrong, I've been somewhat annoyed by situations where I was expected to do something like "fill out a request form to obtain another request form," or repeat the same information on multiple forms at the same time, but the thing is, it takes less time to just DO it than it does to complain about it or conceive of a better way. I sometimes question or complain about such things after the fact, but in the moment I just follow it in order to get accomplished what I'm trying to do, and make sure everything is in the clear, taken care of, there's nothing left undone that could mess up what I'm doing, etc.

So I would say that for me, it's about conserving time/energy, and being more focused on achieving my goals than on making things better.

I'm just as curious as you are to know why the SJs do it, though. Is it more than that for them, or roughly the same things?

Yep. I definitely identify with that.
At the same time... about the idea of conserving time/energy. Sometimes wouldn't it be more better to change the system completely over the long term? It'd benefit you after all.

 

[raz]

Rules can be questioned only if the logical validity of them hangs in the balance. Otherwise, they exist for a reason. I was telling someone yesterday, "I usually don't follow the rules if they don't make sense." But then later on, I was explaining to someone yesterday that I was going to wait 4 minutes to do something at the time I was supposed to do it rather than doing it early because I was getting impatient. They started asking me questions about how I work, and why I was saying I didn't do 2 or 3 things. I explained to them that I had more important things to do, and that I had to look at the big picture, that I couldn't focus on an insignificant detail when I had a bigger objective to worry about. That doesn't sound SJ'ish. I'm not sure, but I always try to look to do something where I'm the most effective in the smallest amount of time.

 

[Giggly]

The above don't really contradict my point about SJs wanting to find a model system that they want to stick by. Personally one thing I don't do is change for the sake of change which seems more inherent in other preferences. It really is seeking my own comfort zone which is also most efficient.

I think this is true and mostly why there is so much SJ hate here. People want the SJs to change.

 

[entropie]

There was that poker show on television yesterday. Some prominent people played a game and someone commented on it.

Concerning Poker I do understand that you have to watch the little things, to get something to know about your opponent. Then again besides watching closely, you can have hunches about relations in pattern of the game your opponents play. This is like you draw a road map to your opponents style within your own soul and you do not recognize it. It can get this far that you start mimicking your opponents gameplay, without even noticing it.

Of course from a logical standpoint, you will always try to grasp your opponents gameplay through analysis. This of course can kill you, if he is haphazard.

BUT and that was the frustrating thing. The commentator commented on every move someone made. He even recognized that the girl on the table was pushing her breast, when she bluffs and picking her nose, when she had good cards.

The thing is, detailed observation is necessary in Poker. But I found it embarassing and I sometimes felt ashamed by what the commentator said. That's because I do not watch myself that closely, focussed on the visible details I mean. I try to forge sense out of actions and build a relational concept of a person that is accompanied by a warm feeling, cold feeling or hopeful feeling.

But this sort of detailed mockery, because someone throws a chip to the ground, to be interpreted as he is being nervous that really ashamed me.

I lack that knack for observation of detail (most of the times).

Guess that's about it what I hate of SJ's.