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[INTP] INTPs and truth/guilt

ubiquitin

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I have a friend who is an INTP and very religious.


His actions inadvertently resulted in a hard choice I had to make about a negative outcome for another. I made the hard choice, which while in the best interest long term, was sad for the other in question. I lied to him and said the other just went somewhere else, as I dont want him to be guilty, as while his actions caused the issue, the other already had some other issues that were compounding.

Should I be honest with him or should I maintain the falsehood?
 

Totenkindly

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I have a friend who is an INTP and very religious.


His actions inadvertently resulted in a hard choice I had to make about a negative outcome for another. I made the hard choice, which while in the best interest long term, was sad for the other in question. I lied to him and said the other just went somewhere else, as I dont want him to be guilty, as while his actions caused the issue, the other already had some other issues that were compounding.

Should I be honest with him or should I maintain the falsehood?

The problem description is far too vague to offer a clear assessment, this is the kind of thing that is more contextual.

INTPs generally can detach from personal situations AND prefer to know the facts/truth so as to process a situation correctly. If we don't have true data, how can we come up with a true answer?

OTOH, if the INTP is emotionally unstable right now and you don't think he can handle the situation without going in a bad direction, then maybe it would be best to avoid the conversation altogether until he is in a stable place. Part of sharing information to benefit another is giving it in the amount someone can handle, and then giving them more and more as their ability to deal with it grows.

you're basically weighing "disclose all at once" with "disclosing over time" in light of which process seems more likely to accomplish your objective... which is what, exactly?
 

ceecee

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What were the actions that caused you to lie in the first place?
 

rav3n

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Rather than framing this solely from the perspective of your subjective judgments, it would help for you to provide objective information about the situation, the actions that the INTP took and the actions of the 'other' person.
 
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This is perhaps the most nebulous description of a situation I’ve encountered on this forum.
 

The Cat

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So what are we making INTPs feel guilty for? The truth of their stylish socks, because I know I cant be the only one who finds their ability to always have stylish socks a bit creepy right? Like a hive mind or what am I right? Or are we talking about something else?
 

Non_xsense

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I think almost every Nt is very similar in this regard .... tell him the truth the sooner the better so they can start thinking the solution.
 

Non_xsense

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So what are we making INTPs feel guilty for? The truth of their stylish socks, because I know I cant be the only one who finds their ability to always have stylish socks a bit creepy right? Like a hive mind or what am I right? Or are we talking about something else?

Funny enough i wash all my socks at the same time , i don't care if they are the same after that xD.
 

rav3n

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I think almost every Nt is very similar in this regard .... tell him the truth the sooner the better so they can start thinking the solution.
Truth is often not true, primarily subjective opinion.
 

Obfuscate

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The problem description is far too vague to offer a clear assessment, this is the kind of thing that is more contextual.

agreed... there isn't enough there to even speculate...
 

Non_xsense

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Truth is often not true, primarily subjective opinion.

That is for someone that can actually use emotions in a healthy way , Nt are just problem solvers... the more time you get them to think about emotion ...they are more prone to over analize those emotions in an unhealthy way( from feelings types perspective).
Lies is probabily the first step to ripe a Nt types , little heart they have.
 

Obfuscate

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That is for someone that can actually use emotions in a healthy way , Nt are just problem solvers... the more time you get them to think about emotion ...they are more prone to over analize those emotions in an unhealthy way( from feelings types perspective).
Lies is probabily the first step to ripe a Nt types , little heart they have.

little heart?
 

rav3n

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That is for someone that can actually use emotions in a healthy way , Nt are just problem solvers... the more time you get them to think about emotion ...they are more prone to over analize those emotions in an unhealthy way( from feelings types perspective).
Lies is probabily the first step to ripe a Nt types , little heart they have.
This makes as much sense as the contents of the opening post.
 

The Cat

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I have a friend who is an INTP and very religious.


His actions inadvertently resulted in a hard choice I had to make about a negative outcome for another. I made the hard choice, which while in the best interest long term, was sad for the other in question. I lied to him and said the other just went somewhere else, as I dont want him to be guilty, as while his actions caused the issue, the other already had some other issues that were compounding.

Should I be honest with him or should I maintain the falsehood?

A serious point: How does he react to being duped. Most people don't mind being lied to, but nobody likes feeling stupid. Sometimes finding out they've been lied to makes people feel stupid. Now, you obviously had your reasons for doing whatever it is you did, and you felt there to be good reason in lying about it. So did you do it to spare him or yourself? If you did it to spare him, get comfortable in the private hell of keeping secrets. It's not always a fun place to dwell but you can make it with the right stuff. If you did it to protect yourself: Are you chafing under it now? Because if it was for yourself come clean, the truth shall set you free, you take your chances of course. But if one little lie can end a friendship, it probably was just another lie you both let yourselves believe. So you dont need to share why you did what you did. Everyone has their reasons for the lies they tell; no one else can say whether it was right or wrong (though many will) But you've got the same choice every liar has since the first lie. Leave it intact or unravel it. The coins been tossed. And only you can call it. Heads or Tails? Take your time. Dont feel compelled to answer here. Hope this helps. (Don't forget to compliment his socks regardless.)

It's also a moot point if person C decides to tell him what happened. You might consider the ramifications of this person putting a new spin on your story. Not telling you what to do one way or another, just a thought...

Good Luck.
 

Totenkindly

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This is perhaps the most nebulous description of a situation I’ve encountered on this forum.

Maybe it's a nightmare of ambiguity for a "topic du jour" advice request, but it's a great Rorschach test to reflect the personality of every one who has responded... :cheese:
 

ubiquitin

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A serious point: How does he react to being duped. Most people don't mind being lied to, but nobody likes feeling stupid. Sometimes finding out they've been lied to makes people feel stupid. Now, you obviously had your reasons for doing whatever it is you did, and you felt there to be good reason in lying about it. So did you do it to spare him or yourself? If you did it to spare him, get comfortable in the private hell of keeping secrets. It's not always a fun place to dwell but you can make it with the right stuff. If you did it to protect yourself: Are you chafing under it now? Because if it was for yourself come clean, the truth shall set you free, you take your chances of course. But if one little lie can end a friendship, it probably was just another lie you both let yourselves believe. So you dont need to share why you did what you did. Everyone has their reasons for the lies they tell; no one else can say whether it was right or wrong (though many will) But you've got the same choice every liar has since the first lie. Leave it intact or unravel it. The coins been tossed. And only you can call it. Heads or Tails? Take your time. Dont feel compelled to answer here. Hope this helps. (Don't forget to compliment his socks regardless.)

It's also a moot point if person C decides to tell him what happened. You might consider the ramifications of this person putting a new spin on your story. Not telling you what to do one way or another, just a thought...

Good Luck.

Thank you for your thoughts. Unfortunately "Person C" was euthanized. My friend overestimated his ability in training a horse and pushed the animal, a very high strung one, too fast and too hard. The animal reacted and broke my friend's leg very badly. My friend admitted his error and even wanted to work with the horse again. However Much like a dog that bites, when a horse's negative behavior has been so notable as to result in serious injury, it becomes a serious liability issue. The horse has always been difficult, but I was careful to control who interacted with him and give ample warning-in this case my friend acted first and listened second and precipitated the very strong, negative response. I euthanized the horse and have told my friend I traded it for a different horse. He really likes horses though and I expect would not respond well to my actions. I loved the horse dearly, just could not allow the risk financially.
 

rav3n

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Thank you for your thoughts. Unfortunately "Person C" was euthanized. My friend overestimated his ability in training a horse and pushed the animal, a very high strung one, too fast and too hard. The animal reacted and broke my friend's leg very badly. My friend admitted his error and even wanted to work with the horse again. However Much like a dog that bites, when a horse's negative behavior has been so notable as to result in serious injury, it becomes a serious liability issue. The horse has always been difficult, but I was careful to control who interacted with him and give ample warning-in this case my friend acted first and listened second and precipitated the very strong, negative response. I euthanized the horse and have told my friend I traded it for a different horse. He really likes horses though and I expect would not respond well to my actions. I loved the horse dearly, just could not allow the risk financially.
Rather than put the horse down, couldn't you have refused to allow anyone else but yourself to work with the horse until it was calm enough to be handled by others?
 

ubiquitin

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Rather than put the horse down, couldn't you have refused to allow anyone else but yourself to work with the horse until it was calm enough to be handled by others?

That was my initial thought but there are two challenges.

The first involves financial liability. Much like when a dog bites once you might be forgiven, but twice and you can be sued very badly and be assumed liable as you decided to allow a known high risk animal to be on our property. Additionally, a horse can be potentially viewed as an attractive nuisance, thus if a child or unaware adult was injured it would still be on me. Complicating this is that the person who is hurt may not sue you-it could be their insurance company, so even if it is your best friend you are still at risk.

The second aspect was evaluating the likelihood of this type of behavior being modified in the horse. His life was hard. He came from three years of profound starvation and neglect. When I got him he hadnt been handled at all. So a very poor early foundation, much like a neglected, abused child. Additionally he was from racing lines, thus very high strung and anxious by temperament. The combination of the two meant that he never really developed a good approach to coping with fear and had a very low threshold for stress tolerance before he would respond in an extreme, explosive way. Typically he would become scared of new things, then if forced to confront them, would panic, and try and get away form the scary thing via running...and forget you were near him. We did a lot of ground work and desensitization with him, but Ive consulted with several trainers since the accident and the general consensus is that it is very hard to modify these tendencies, especially given how he extreme he could be-thus he would always be dangerous and should be euthanized.

If handled and cared for from a young age, likely he would still be high strung but would have learned "self-soothing" and found alternate ways to handle stress or had greater trust in humans to direct him when under stress.

Interestingly Ive seen some trainers who specialize in these horses describe this as the horse reacting "unconsciously" or as we would describe in a jungian shadow state and use something resembling DBT to address. There are also trainers who apply a modified MBTI to horses, this fellow would have been a "aggressive fearful" animal which corresponds a highly extroverted, highly neurotic feeler. They can be very dangerous animals, albeit its not their fault how they were bred or handled.
 

rav3n

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That was my initial thought but there are two challenges.

The first involves financial liability. Much like when a dog bites once you might be forgiven, but twice and you can be sued very badly and be assumed liable as you decided to allow a known high risk animal to be on our property. Additionally, a horse can be potentially viewed as an attractive nuisance, thus if a child or unaware adult was injured it would still be on me. Complicating this is that the person who is hurt may not sue you-it could be their insurance company, so even if it is your best friend you are still at risk.

The second aspect was evaluating the likelihood of this type of behavior being modified in the horse. His life was hard. He came from three years of profound starvation and neglect. When I got him he hadnt been handled at all. So a very poor early foundation, much like a neglected, abused child. Additionally he was from racing lines, thus very high strung and anxious by temperament. The combination of the two meant that he never really developed a good approach to coping with fear and had a very low threshold for stress tolerance before he would respond in an extreme, explosive way. Typically he would become scared of new things, then if forced to confront them, would panic, and try and get away form the scary thing via running...and forget you were near him. We did a lot of ground work and desensitization with him, but Ive consulted with several trainers since the accident and the general consensus is that it is very hard to modify these tendencies, especially given how he extreme he could be-thus he would always be dangerous and should be euthanized.

If handled and cared for from a young age, likely he would still be high strung but would have learned "self-soothing" and found alternate ways to handle stress or had greater trust in humans to direct him when under stress.

Interestingly Ive seen some trainers who specialize in these horses describe this as the horse reacting "unconsciously" or as we would describe in a jungian shadow state and use something resembling DBT to address. There are also trainers who apply a modified MBTI to horses, this fellow would have been a "aggressive fearful" animal which corresponds a highly extroverted, highly neurotic feeler. They can be very dangerous animals, albeit its not their fault how they were bred or handled.
Fair enough.

The problem with telling him the truth is that you lied to him initially. On the other hand, if you don't tell him the truth, he might exhibit similar reckless behaviors with other at risk animals. So if you decide to tell him the truth make sure you explain the above to him, including your reasoning for lying to him in the first place and be prepared to lose his friendship. If you don't lose his friendship, consider it a bonus.
 

ubiquitin

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Fair enough.

The problem with telling him the truth is that you lied to him initially. On the other hand, if you don't tell him the truth, he might exhibit similar reckless behaviors with other at risk animals. So if you decide to tell him the truth make sure you explain the above to him, including your reasoning for lying to him in the first place and be prepared to lose his friendship. If you don't lose his friendship, consider it a bonus.

The additional challenge is that he is a coworker on a complex multiyear project. I have inadvertently offended an INTP in the past and it created a cold shouldered, non-communicative rift in a previously very good friendship, so it would be best for the working team not to replicate that error. Additionally, the likelihood of him ever facing a horse of this complex background is fairly low, so the knowledge would not be of too much benefit in preventing future issues like this. Thank you for your feedback.
 
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