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[NT] NT and debate vs discussion

Eilonwy

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This portion of the discussion has been a moving target, one I have been doing my best to follow as I try to answer your questions and provide the evidence you justifiably requested. My original point always has been that some types are more subject to bias than others, a point you eventually accepted. To go back to the original question of discussing vs. debating, this suggests that some types will have less (but not no) bias in their stated positions or arguments. It would be interesting to see whether the kinds of bias that most affect someone is type dependent, but neither the article I quoted nor my own knowledge covers that.

NT logic most definitely needs a "reality check" sometimes. IME, though, that happens less often than with other types - though this is more of a T/F distinction than NT vs other temperaments. Type does not equate to proficiency. It does equate to preference, though, and to the extent that we do the things we prefer more often, more consistently, and more attentively, we get more experience/practice with those things. We also value them, so are motivated to develop them. That combination of motivation and practice often does translate into proficiency.


I suspected you would object to my noting that you were demonstrating the validity of your own point on the importance of learning. The only thing I have learned so far in our exchange is what I learned from that paper I linked for you.


I admit that when I tell someone, "that's a good idea", I don't check to see how they interpreted my remark. Same with when I say, "I agree with you about A and B, but disagree on C", or "I'm assuming X here, which may be wrong", or "I don't know much about this subject, so this is pure speculation". I guess I am naive enough to expect such statements to be taken at face value, though I am always willing to explain when asked. Life is too short to go around cross-checking everything I say. The other person's perspective matters, to the degree they are willing to share it. I cannot read minds, and prefer not to make assumptions.


Please explain.

There seems to be a very large gap in communication between us. You proved your point, but completely missed mine. I agree, life is too short.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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There seems to be a very large gap in communication between us. You proved your point, but completely missed mine. I agree, life is too short.
In that case, I see I have completely misinterpreted your OP. I thought you were trying to ask questions and gather information, not prove a point.
 

Eilonwy

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In that case, I see I have completely misinterpreted your OP. I thought you were trying to ask questions and gather information, not prove a point.

I guess you need *(other people to follow) those rules of discussion because the OP wasn't about proving a point.

*ETA
 

Eilonwy

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@Coriolis, In fact, other than this tortured back and forth with you, the replies to this thread have convinced me that many NTs don't think only in terms of debate.
 

Coriolis

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I guess you need *(other people to follow) those rules of discussion because the OP wasn't about proving a point.
Then why did you say I missed your point, if you didn't have one?

I have looked upon your posts as requests for information, first about my perspective as one example of how NTs approach discussion; and then for evidence to support claims I made in explaining that. I have done my best to answer on both counts. If you were expecting some other sort of response, what would that be?

@Coriolis, In fact, other than this tortured back and forth with you, the replies to this thread have convinced me that many NTs don't think only in terms of debate.
Indeed, we do not. I also pointed this out in my first or second post here.
 

Yuurei

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It seems to me, the real question presented by the OP " Which NT's here like to debate (cuz I want to pick a fight!) :dry:
 

Obfuscate

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It seems to me, the real question presented by the OP " Which NT's here like to debate (cuz I want to pick a fight!) :dry:

i more or less agree...

i feel as though the o.p. was an (unconscious?) attempt to gather further ammunition, and not an honest attempt to see the issue from another position... i am glad i was occupied between now and the time i was quoted... i suspect anything i could have said would have been a "waste of breath"...
 

Lib

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There seems to be a very large gap in communication between us. You proved your point, but completely missed mine. I agree, life is too short.
I think I actually understand the point you were trying to make. People who trust their rationality too much are having a hard time to see when they are wrong so they debate the hell out of it. This thread was a good demonstration for it :D

I don't see how the NT group, which I presumably belong to, is less biased than any other. I mean, claiming such thing is already a sign of serious biases.
 

Eilonwy

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It seems to me, the real question presented by the OP " Which NT's here like to debate (cuz I want to pick a fight!) :dry:

i more or less agree...

i feel as though the o.p. was an (unconscious?) attempt to gather further ammunition, and not an honest attempt to see the issue from another position... i am glad i was occupied between now and the time i was quoted... i suspect anything i could have said would have been a "waste of breath"...

No. Not ammunition. Here's the context for my question. An NT friend admitted lying to me about something very serious. This person made light of the lie when they admitted to it. I was hurt. I expressed my hurt. Then came the tactics that [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] used. Putting it back on me, implying that I was the one being unreasonable, avoiding the issue, shutting me down. That hurt even more. I think I was being reasonable. A lot of people would have had nothing more to do with a person who lied about what was lied about. I'm willing to try to mend the friendship, but not when what I get is debate tactics.

I couldn't decide if this person was deliberately being an asshole, or if, perhaps, this is just part of the way they think--everything is a debate. So, I asked. And [MENTION=31348]Peter Deadpan[/MENTION]'s answer hit home for me. It humanized my friend for me. I thank him for that. And then Coriolis decided to play devil's advocate, I'm assuming, because she's said before that she likes to do that. But not knowing the context, she ended up bring all the hurt back again. The same damn tactics. The same type of gaslighting. So, thanks for playing. Sometimes I'm an asshole, but not this time.
 

Eilonwy

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Just in case anyone wants to dismiss the lie being big because I was vague about it, it was basically "I followed you online for a long time, without your knowledge, and then I found you somewhere else online and presented myself as a stranger so that I could become your friend".
 

Eilonwy

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I'm really quite angry right now. It's taking a lot of willpower to not say things I'll regret.
 

Obfuscate

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I'm really quite angry right now. It's taking a lot of willpower to not say things I'll regret.

your interactions with cor looked hostile, and i had no context... i didn't find that encouraging...

that is a very strange thing for your nt "friend" to do...
 

Eilonwy

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your interactions with cor looked hostile, and i had no context... i didn't find that encouraging...

that is a very strange thing for your nt "friend" to do...
I'm still very angry but I'll try to be civil. Yes, a very strange and hurtful thing to do. The only reason I'm giving them a chance to make amends at this time is that I've found myself capable of doing strange and hurtful things when my emotions have gotten the better of me. Not exactly that thing, but strange and hurtful nonetheless. What I really would like to do is let loose with the anger, but I think I might eventually regret that, and, as you all saw, I have no real strategy against NT tactics except anger, which has proven useless.

Do I want to win? Not necessarily. What I want is a fair conversation.

ETA: I am aware that directing my anger at anyone here would be misdirecting my anger. Just because the tactics were the same and triggered me, doesn't mean that any of you deserve it thrown at you.
 

Yuurei

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Just in case anyone wants to dismiss the lie being big because I was vague about it, it was basically "I followed you online for a long time, without your knowledge, and then I found you somewhere else online and presented myself as a stranger so that I could become your friend".


That is a nasty, creepy and all over unacceptable thing that they did. I have been there myself, except I never fell for it because the guy was not nearly as clever as he thought. And rest assured, I am angry for you.

But it is being dismissed here because it is irrelevant. You were angry and came here to take your anger out on people who have nothing to do with what happened. Then in your confession, basically say that you belie all NT's are creepy, lying stalkers...

I'm still very angry but I'll try to be civil. Yes, a very strange and hurtful thing to do. The only reason I'm giving them a chance to make amends at this time is that I've found myself capable of doing strange and hurtful things when my emotions have gotten the better of me. Not exactly that thing, but strange and hurtful nonetheless. What I really would like to do is let loose with the anger, but I think I might eventually regret that, and, as you all saw, I have no real strategy against NT tactics except anger, which has proven useless.

Do I want to win? Not necessarily. What I want is a fair conversation.

]ETA: I am aware that directing my anger at anyone here would be misdirecting my anger. Just because the tactics were the same and triggered me, doesn't mean that any of you deserve it thrown at you


...and now I have NO sympathy for you because you are putting all of the blame upon others and playing an innocent victim. Nope. Own your shit.
 

Coriolis

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i feel as though the o.p. was an (unconscious?) attempt to gather further ammunition, and not an honest attempt to see the issue from another position... i am glad i was occupied between now and the time i was quoted... i suspect anything i could have said would have been a "waste of breath"...
I took Eilonwy at her word, that she was just trying to understand the NT perspective on discussion and debate. Even if I had suspected she had a hidden agenda, I would have taken her OP at face value, and provided as honest and complete an answer as I could, which is what I did. How can I expect someone to understand my perspective if I don't share it and explain it?

I think I actually understand the point you were trying to make. People who trust their rationality too much are having a hard time to see when they are wrong so they debate the hell out of it. This thread was a good demonstration for it :D

I don't see how the NT group, which I presumably belong to, is less biased than any other. I mean, claiming such thing is already a sign of serious biases.
So you believe everyone is equally subject to bias, in contradiction to the evidence?

No. Not ammunition. Here's the context for my question. An NT friend admitted lying to me about something very serious. This person made light of the lie when they admitted to it. I was hurt. I expressed my hurt. Then came the tactics that [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] used. Putting it back on me, implying that I was the one being unreasonable, avoiding the issue, shutting me down. That hurt even more. I think I was being reasonable. A lot of people would have had nothing more to do with a person who lied about what was lied about. I'm willing to try to mend the friendship, but not when what I get is debate tactics.

I couldn't decide if this person was deliberately being an asshole, or if, perhaps, this is just part of the way they think--everything is a debate. So, I asked. And [MENTION=31348]Peter Deadpan[/MENTION]'s answer hit home for me. It humanized my friend for me. I thank him for that. And then Coriolis decided to play devil's advocate, I'm assuming, because she's said before that she likes to do that. But not knowing the context, she ended up bring all the hurt back again. The same damn tactics. The same type of gaslighting. So, thanks for playing. Sometimes I'm an asshole, but not this time.
I see. You started this thread under false pretenses, with a hidden agenda, to what end I am not sure. Trying to understand your friend is the kindest possibility I can think of. Still, I'm not sorry I "played". And no, I was never playing devil's advocate. I described in good faith how I approach discussion, responding to your OP at face value. When you questioned me about that, I answered as honestly and clearly as I could. When you asked for evidence to support claims I made, I provided it. Believe me, if I thought you were being unreasonable, I would have said so directly. I don't rely on implication. If I had wanted to shut you down, this exchange would have ended many posts ago.

So, you criticise me for not accounting for your context in my replies, when you never provided it. I understand you are upset at your friend for being deceitful. I would be, too. (Yet haven't you deceived us here?) I appreciate that you acknowledge that we in this thread are not appropriate targets for your anger, however justified it may be. For what it's worth, I am in no way hurt by anything that has transpired here, which is why I can risk taking things like your OP at face value and providing a candid response.

That being said, you have lost my trust.
 

j.c.t.

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What in the world is going on in here... The thread should be about Ti/Ne views on discussion/debate as compared to Te/Ni, as this thread demonstrates the differences quite well. :D
 

Jaguar

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Te/Ni here. I don't go for common ground before disagreeing. It wastes time. I prefer discussion over debate. If I want to shoot the shit with say, Eck, I'll shoot the shit with Eck. It's not a debate. On a side note, there is too much drama in this thread. Lighten up, people.
 

Lib

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So you believe everyone is equally subject to bias, in contradiction to the evidence?
I've never suggested anything of the sort, though. You are shifting to another argument which is in violation with your own rules for a rational discussion. Please, reread my post, it was very clear and concise.
 

Peter Deadpan

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your interactions with cor looked hostile, and i had no context... i didn't find that encouraging...

that is a very strange thing for your nt "friend" to do...

I don't think they look hostile at all. I think everyone in this thread is only seeing what they want to.
 

Obfuscate

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I don't think they look hostile at all. I think everyone in this thread is only seeing what they want to.

i wasn't meaning to make a big thing of it... it merely appeared hostile (which turned out to be frustration at an external source)... so i initially gave something noncommital, and would have provided further explaination after the first time i was quoted because their reply there was reasonable... i looked over the way the discussion with cor transpired and saw that same undercurrent of frustration, so i acknowledged i had misgivings comparable to yuu's concerning it... i am not "wanting" to see anything, but i would have needed to be blind not to assume there was an agenda behind presenting this the way it has been presented... i didn't have a clear idea of what the agenda was, but i knew it wasn't as simple as curiousity... i am glad i didn't reply then because it is more difficult to respond to someone when you have no idea why a question is being asked and what they actually want to know... i'm not opposed to informing someone, but i dislike trying to ferret out what is actually going on...
 
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