• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] Mastering difficult material

animenagai

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
1,569
MBTI Type
NeFi
Enneagram
4w3
eh i'm not an NT, but i'll answer anyways. i used to be a maths major and the thing that helped me out the most were by far doing practice questions. i also find it much easier to learn in a group due to my E. since you're an ENTJ, you can try the same thing. try a study group or something.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
Thank you all for the answers :) special thanks to Provoker for going into so much detail :) I have already done by myself some of the things listed , problem is that I don't know anybody IRL which is interested in what I am trying to "master", except some professors at my department which of course I can only speak with once in a while.

About not doing what you aren't naturally good at: I'm not so sure if this position holds on very difficult material. Let me explain myself better by means of an analogy: even the best and most talented sport players have to train hard and a lot to reach their apex and fully use their gift. This does not mean that they were incapable in the first place; taking the example from a field which I have experience with, even the best cyclist will find an hard climb hard on their legs, but they'll also be able to do it faster than anybody else. Or think about languages: not many people are able to understand a different language when they first hear it (actually, I think almost nobody). Yet many can learn it, even quite easily, with some method.
 

BlackOp

New member
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
211
MBTI Type
intj
About not doing what you aren't naturally good at: I'm not so sure if this position holds on very difficult material.

Maybe we have a different angle on the word "master". To me, it implies complete control. I can be quite good at something that I am naturally inept at. Mastering something is an entirely different can of worms. It is perfecting something that you already have a gift for.

I have a great admiration for Picasso. He actually would limit parameters because his artistic capabilities were so vast. That is a "master"....having to police your own prowess so you output is functional and effective.

So maybe your use of the word "master' threw me off....My advice would be study twice as much.....;)
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
1,941
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
512
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Excellent question. In order to master things (complex material, rubik's cubes, complicated political systems, etc) you must master your mind. Most answers are already contained in our minds and it is the person who has sharpened various dimensions of their mind to be able to cut across and communicate with other parts of the mind. In Batman Begins there is part where Bruce is talking with the League of Shadows guy and he says something like "you can fight 5 guys at once, we will teach you to fight 500 at once" (or something to that affect). Likewise, if you only have the intellectual storage capacity for a few theories, this can be changed so that you can learn to keep hundreds of theories in your working memory. To to this with any kind of efficiency, you're going to have to focus on procedures rather than substance. Just like a rubik's cube, once you've learned the procedures for solving it someone can give you the cube with any configuration and you'll be able to solve it: the substance chances, the procedure does not. How does this apply to you? Well, by taking a procedural approach you can learn to store so much more. Take theories for example, the procedure for mastering a theory can be: main position (thesis), reasons/evidence in support of thesis, strengths of the theory, limitations of the theory, counterargument to the theory. Next theory - same procedure.
;) A rubik's cube is hardly complex. You can solve it with only 7 algorithms.

I believe that the best way of learning is by tailoring the material to your learning style. If it's something that comes naturally to you, you'd probably be able to learn it using any method. If it isn't, learning will be much easier if you make it something that you will be most easily able to work with.

Are you a visual person? I am very much a visual/conceptual learner. So if I really, really need to learn something, I first write detailed notes from text. Then I read the notes multiple times, and draw diagrams and mind-maps that illustrate to me my understanding of the material. With the detailed diagrams and mind-maps, once I'm reasonably sure of the material, I move up one degree, and make the "simple" mind-maps that give the overall view and relate what I've learnt to other concepts and material.

So, given my simple, undetailed mind-map, I should be able to (in my mind) move up and up into varying degrees of detail and complexity.

If you're an audio learner, record your lectures and listen to them over and over again. Talk to people about what you're learning. Talk to yourself about what you're learning. Read things out when you're revising.

If you're a tactile learner, practice over and over again. Make physical models that illustrate the principle. Actually do experiments that show the theory. Or write, over and over again, what you need to remember. Even if you don't have your visual notes with you, your body will remember writing it.

Sometimes, combining the different approaches will be a lot more effective. And repetition really does help, especially for things like math.
 

Orangey

Blah
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
6,354
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
6w5
;) A rubik's cube is hardly complex. You can solve it with only 7 algorithms.

I believe that the best way of learning is by tailoring the material to your learning style. If it's something that comes naturally to you, you'd probably be able to learn it using any method. If it isn't, learning will be much easier if you make it something that you will be most easily able to work with.

Are you a visual person? I am very much a visual/conceptual learner. So if I really, really need to learn something, I first write detailed notes from text. Then I read the notes multiple times, and draw diagrams and mind-maps that illustrate to me my understanding of the material. With the detailed diagrams and mind-maps, once I'm reasonably sure of the material, I move up one degree, and make the "simple" mind-maps that give the overall view and relate what I've learnt to other concepts and material.

So, given my simple, undetailed mind-map, I should be able to (in my mind) move up and up into varying degrees of detail and complexity.

If you're an audio learner, record your lectures and listen to them over and over again. Talk to people about what you're learning. Talk to yourself about what you're learning. Read things out when you're revising.

If you're a tactile learner, practice over and over again. Make physical models that illustrate the principle. Actually do experiments that show the theory. Or write, over and over again, what you need to remember. Even if you don't have your visual notes with you, your body will remember writing it.

Sometimes, combining the different approaches will be a lot more effective. And repetition really does help, especially for things like math.

Yes, I make maps and diagrams as well. It helps me remember the material and grasp the relationships between concepts.
 

Alpha Prime

New member
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
250
MBTI Type
XXXX
Enneagram
XXXX
See, we already know what our limitations are...and work within those realistic constraints. By that logic, maybe I should try out for the Bears. Mastering something is a very specific task. If I put my hand on a hot stove, it burns. I dont need to repeat the action to know the outcome. That lesson is applied UNIVERSALLY...in a deeper unconscious, way.

You can only know your limitations if you set them yourself. There is no such thing as realism, and control is an illusion.


OP: Do what you N's do: Get the big picture and break it down. Exercises will provide your mind with more patterns from which you can learn how to solve similar exercises. Repetition is key to maintaining the knowledge you gain.
 

BlackOp

New member
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
211
MBTI Type
intj
You can only know your limitations if you set them yourself.

There is no such thing as realism, and control is an illusion.

No..the illusion is not knowing your limitations. I fully understand the construct "shoot for the stars".....I also know the pain of hitting the ground. Gravity doesnt care.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
I have to spend long periods in solitary confinement with lots of books, lecture materials and the Internet.

Good grief, I can't think of anything that'd demotivate me faster!! :laugh:

For me, I'll take it in little chunks, and take it easy. Say, get a 'for dummies' book or some other self-contained guide, and just read a page or two of it at a time while you have your coffee break, and in between, don't really think about it. I find it sorta sinks in subconsciously then while I'm not doing it, then when I come back to continue reading, I know where I'm at. This way I end up mastering it without really feeling like I ever put in much work.

At least, this was how I learned Latin - I went from total beginner to reading Virgil in a month with this method :) Granted, I did put in a bit of extra work to memorize vocab and grammar tables, but that wasn't difficult.... just a case of printing the grids and filling them in from memory a few times 'til it's instinctive. Like that memory game where you take something from the tray... much easier if the tray's the same every time lol Oh, and I tend to find opportunities to use it, which I don't really think of as work cos it's just fun and comes naturally - playing with words and making up silly rhymes and songs and stuff like that. People think you're messing about instead of 'working' but it's all great consolidation.
 

Alpha Prime

New member
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
250
MBTI Type
XXXX
Enneagram
XXXX
No..the illusion is not knowing your limitations. I fully understand the construct "shoot for the stars".....I also know the pain of hitting the ground. Gravity doesnt care.

So, for you, this is an emotional issue at the core (unable to process feeling of failure), covered by logic. You cannot possibly know your limits until you try your very best. Even then it is doubtful you reached your true limit.

Again: Control and "Realism" are both illusions.



OP: Part of mastery is to be able to deal with exceptions and extremities.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,988
Advanced mathematical and statistical methods, basically. But a general approach is welcomed, too.

Math is one of those things that is very conceptual and abstract, but at the same time very structured, and precise.

Ironically, due to its rigor, it will submit to whatever strange approach you want to bring to it, so long as it capture the rules.

If you want to think about numbers as lili-pads where hopping frogs hop along to represent various numerical operations, you can do that.

If you want to think of symbols being processed through a particular mechanical machine, you can do that.

If you want to map the concepts using diagrams, you can do that too (this my preferred method).

Math involves three elements, in my mind:
1) Conception
2) Proof
3) Application for problem solving

For the conception part, it is about producing ones own representation that captures the rules of the concepts being discussed. All such representations will be "isomorphic," but some conceptions can lead to "error-prone."

Proof, is the "building-up" of some concepts from others. Good proofs leave no conceptual gaps. You can use your old subjective pictures to form a subjective picture of the new concepts (theorems) developed.

Of course, problem solving uses you general problem solving skills with your mathematical conceptions as part of your "tool-kit."

Like with everything else. Practice, and simply time spent, works.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
Thanks everybody again for the plentiful replies :happy2: I am mostly trying to follow nonsequitur and provoker's approaches right now :yes:
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
notes.jpg
 

BlackOp

New member
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
211
MBTI Type
intj
So, for you, this is an emotional issue at the core (unable to process feeling of failure), covered by logic. You cannot possibly know your limits until you try your very best. Even then it is doubtful you reached your true limit.

Again: Control and "Realism" are both illusions.



OP: Part of mastery is to be able to deal with exceptions and extremities.

I am only qualified to speak from my vantage....there is no definitive way to go about one's business and dont pretend to speak for anyone. The term used was "master" and he was having issues with the subject.

"OP: Part of mastery is to be able to deal with exceptions and extremities."

to master=to control...and is a deliberate reduction/conclusion from application. It is the essence of pragmatism in its purest form. Is it absolute.....probably not but what is? So if mastering (control) is an illusion then he shouldnt have asked the question. I should have just responded "I refuse to lie".:)
 

ed111

New member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
426
MBTI Type
INTJ
Good grief, I can't think of anything that'd demotivate me faster!! :laugh:

I think the point is, that for me, I need to be on my own, away from noise and interuptions. I take regular breaks (exercise or surfing the Internet) and I'm aware of when I'm becoming stressed out.
 

ed111

New member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
426
MBTI Type
INTJ
Three words:

Learn By Doing.

I totally agree with this.

When I was learning programming, although I did read a lot of books on the topic, it was only through applying learning that I came to understand it properly. I would think of my own problems that I'd like to solve (not just ones set for me as tutorials).

The very best way to learn is to teach a subject. For example, giving help to a struggling student really highlights your level of understanding of a subject and forces you explain stuff in ways that other people would understand, not just the way that you understand it.
 

energy

New member
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
14
MBTI Type
WXYZ
Three words:

Learn By Doing.

I agree with tyhis also. you should also have a strong foundation before leaping on difficult material, For instance trying to understand quantum mechanics and relativity without some basics understanding in calculus and mechanics is just stupid.

The same approach is in chemistry,. For instance, you should know that matter only has three forms , liquid , solid and gas, and energy is needed to transformed it from one state to another before moving to more advance material.

Self-learning is much more diffuicult than learning from a tteacher, because it involves discovery. But its also more rewarding.
 

Into It

New member
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
664
MBTI Type
ENFP
You can work consciously to program your subconcious so that intuition becomes ally to the intellect rather a force against it. Again, the procedures are critical. If you've mastered procedures and learned to intuitively recognize procedural patterns than although the substance of various phenomena changes you should be able to apply your procedural intelligence to master various problems.

Please be more specific. This sounds valuable.
 

Simplexity

New member
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
1,741
MBTI Type
INTP
^ I think I've read a couple articles that hold similar sentiments. When I have more time I'll get busy and search for them. I think though that the crux of the argument is skill and pattern recognition. If I'm not mistaken the basal ganglia is responsible for that, all you pseudo-neuro-scientists can correct me on that, but the theory is once you've seen something in action numerous times that part of your brain basically holds a sequence of patterns and all it takes is one instance of the procedure for you to rapidly both recreate and apply the skill without much concerted effort.

I think INTJ mom had an article in her multi-tasking thread that sort of touched on it, but instead her focus was on the negative effects of listening to music, watching tv etc... had on learning( it was more akin to skill acquisition in the aforementioned ganglia). I think on a pseudo level(pending article) that it does make some sense, If you imagine it in a sports scenario how do professional athletes have amazing foresight to react almost instantaneously to the slightest actions and movements.

Anyways Provoke, I've gotta be off hope that was similar or at least in the ballpark of what you were trying to say.
 
Top