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[NT] Famous historical NT's

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Well, I'm sure people have thought of some that couldn't go in the other threads. Probably would be good if people give a short description of the people they propose, cos we haven't all studied the same stuff :)

I'll start with Peter Abelard, who I'm guessing as ENTP. He was arguably the most influential and revolutionary free-thinker of the Middle Ages, the father of the scholastic method, often dubbed "The Plato of the North", ironically more famous for his love affair with Heloise than all the much more awesome stuff he did.

EDIT - I also think Hildegard von Bingen was ENTP as well.

It'll be interesting to see how many non-scientist NT's and non-spiritual NF's we can think of, though this isn't a rule or aim of the thread by any means!
 

The Ü™

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Leonardo DaVinci, ENTP

Alfred Hitchcock, ENTP

Stanley Kubrick, INTJ

Glenn Gould, INTJ

Ludwig van Beethoven, ENTP

C.S. Lewis, INTJ

Ray Harryhausen, ENTP

Dick Cheney, ENTJ (and as far as I'm concerned, he should have been dead a long time ago)
 

The Ü™

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Georgia O'Keeffe, INTP

Johann Gutenberg, ENTP

Arthur Schopenhauer, INTJ

Immanuel Kant, INTJ

Thomas Hobbes, INTJ

Rene Descartes, INTP

Niccolò Machiavelli, ENTJ

Dante Alighieri, INTJ

Jeffrey Dahmer, ENTP

Heinrich Himmler, ENTJ

Bill Nye the Science Guy, ENTP

Howard Hughes, ENTP

Fritz Lang, ENTP

Osama bin Laden, INTJ

Richard Nixon, ENTJ

John F. Kennedy, ENTP
 

SolitaryWalker

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Corrections.

Arthur Schopenhauer was an INFJ. (I could explain to you why I think so based on my readings of his biography and the way his personality in his writings suggested this. Yes, unlike most philosophers his philosophy was fully imbued in its authors personality. Many of his doctrines could have been made in an optimistic or a neutral attitude, and none of his ideas necessitate pessimism, he was just imposing his feelings onto the readers)


Machiavelli seemed like a quintissential ENTP. He had a detached and an impersonal outlook on life, and most of all he had great awareness of his environment. He also knew how to manipulate complex social systems and suggested being very adaptable, a chameleon he was indeed. Machiavelli, both as a writer and as a person had a very informative communication style, not directive.


Dante, I'd argue was also an INFJ. In short, his feelings preceeded his dispassionate thought and relationships played a more important role in his life than pursuit of whateve impersonal goals he had.


Parmenides-INTP
Heraclitus-INTJ
Socrates-INTP
Spinoza-INTP
Leibniz-INTP
Aristotle-INTP
Marx-INTP
Einstein-INTP
Newton-INTP
Galileo-INTP
Darwin-INTP
Copernicus-INTP
Locke-INTJ
Nietzsche-INTJ
Hobbes-INTJ
Napoleon Bonaparte-ENTJ
Alexander the Great-ENTJ(although type logic reports he was an ENTP, but I don't buy it)
Ayn Rand-INTJ
David Hume-ENTP
de Voltaire-ENTP
Bertrand Russell-ENTP
Karl Popper-INTJ
Bill Gates-ENTP

*EDIT:Richard Wagner-ENTJ(thanks Uberfuhrer)
 
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The Ü™

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I think Bill Gates is an ENTJ.

I had trouble typing O'Keeffe, but her artwork definitely seems NT-like.

And I highly doubt that Thomas Hobbes was an ESTJ like Keirsey states.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Not sure about Bill Gates. I am thinking probably ENTP.. he seems to be a very unsystematic thinker and has a laid back approach to life..perhaps too unconventional to be an ENTJ (Te relies on the external standard a lot)..and he doesnt seem to have a TJ-like directive nature of communication..

Hobbes was likely an INTJ..
 

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I don't think Beethovan was ENTP. Seems more INTJ to me... or some kind of J, for sure.

I think Martin Luther was a J was well.
 

The Ü™

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What about Richard Wagner? ENTJ perhaps?
 

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Wace, 12th century author of Roman de Rou and Roman de Brut, two early French epics, I believe to have been INTP.

St Thomas Aquinas - INTJ ?
St Augustine of Hippo - xNTP
St Thomas More - ENTP
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - ENTJ
Ibn Rushd (known in Europe as Averroes - great Islamic philosopher who had a big influence on the scholastic 12th century Renaissance, greatest work IMO being Tahafut al-Tahafut or "The Incoherence of the Incoherence", in retaliation against Al-Ghazali's Incoherence of the Philosophers) - ENTP
 

Xander

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ENTJ - Winston Churchill.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Wace, 12th century author of Roman de Rou and Roman de Brut, two early French epics, I believe to have been INTP.

St Thomas Aquinas - INTJ ?
St Augustine of Hippo - xNTP
St Thomas More - ENTP
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - ENTJ
Ibn Rushd (known in Europe as Averroes - great Islamic philosopher who had a big influence on the scholastic 12th century Renaissance, greatest work IMO being Tahafut al-Tahafut or "The Incoherence of the Incoherence", in retaliation against Al-Ghazali's Incoherence of the Philosophers) - ENTP


Augustine was an INFP...most of his work was about the personal Christian values rather than figuring problems out for the sake of figuring them out..

He also had a self-diatribe streak..which is indicative of Fi more than any other function..

'So I muddied the stream of friendship with the filth of lewdness and clouded its clear waters with hell's black river of lust. And yet, despite such putrid depravity, I was vain enough to harbor an ambition to succeed in the world. I also fell in love, which was a trap of my own making. My God, God of Mercy, how good were you to me, for you mixed such bitterness in that cup of pleasure. My love was returned, and I became chained in the shackles of its consummation. Even in the midst of my joys I embroiled in tribulation, lashed by the cruel rods of jealousy, fear, anger and bitter argument.'


Aquinas was an INFJ..His life is a textbook example of how the mind went in service to the heart..he never had a problem talking about Feelings and quite often enjoyed it...even when he was young..very uncommon of an NT..

I dont know much about Averroes..but why is he an ENTP instead of INTP..He didnt seem to be actively involved in his visions to change the world..and wanst too big into making philosophy practical..he seemed like a detached problem solver who'd be satisfied with just knowing the truth..

He didnt seem to be the kind of a thinker that Hume Machiavelli and Voltaire were..those who wanted to simplify the complex systems and were hostile to certainty and epistemic rationalism...deeming experience to be more important than pure logic...

Hume had an aversion to rationalism because he did not need logic to justify what he knew..he'd be ok with just his adaptable Intuitions..yet Averroes was seemingly a very systematic thinker..
 

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Augustine was an INFP...most of his work was about the personal Christian values rather than figuring problems out for the sake of figuring them out..

I disagree. The Christian values were the problems he was trying to figure out - he was raised as a pagan, remember, and trying to deal with the concepts and how they applied to him and life in general. The OTT, emotive style of writing was just the fashionable and expected style of the time. If you whittle out of it all the bits and pieces that are stock phrases from the period's literature, you get a different picture. And by the time he was writing his Confessions, he was much older, and NT's over a certain age are often characterised by remorse over realisation of their thoughtless (in the sense of thoughtlessness about other people's feelings and needs), arrogant and selfish behaviour in youth.

Aquinas was an INFJ..His life is a textbook example of how the mind went in service to the heart..he never had a problem talking about Feelings and quite often enjoyed it...even when he was young..very uncommon of an NT..

Again I disagree. He devoted a lot of his time to picking apart the various philosophical viewpoints of his day, and you're forgetting also that what today is classified as 'arts', religious and spiritual stuff associated with NF-ness, in his day, that was science and philosophy. His approach to religion was very much concerned with theology and philosophy, which is what the NT's of his day did - the NF's were more concerned with the charitable side of things, like St Francis of Assisi and his lepers, beggars, animals etc - the application of the theology and its relevance to human lives were what NF's did. Aquinas thought and wrote.

I dont know much about Averroes..but why is he an ENTP instead of INTP..He didnt seem to be actively involved in his visions to change the world..and wanst too big into making philosophy practical..he seemed like a detached problem solver who'd be satisfied with just knowing the truth..

Yes to the last part, but no to not being actively involved. He was very active, very energetic and travelled all over the place spreading and promoting his philosophies, meeting with others, influencing and making changes in society. If he were alive today, I cannot imagine him being content to just write about his ideas and put them onto websites. He'd be the kind of person like me, who needs to go out and DO things, bring them face to face with other people and take action. Seems to me he wrote about things from experience, after having thought about them, refined them in the crucible of practice and then realised that some writing was necessary. INTP's tend to do it the other way around and to put experience at a much lower premium than ENTP's.
 

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I disagree. The Christian values were the problems he was trying to figure out - he was raised as a pagan, remember, and trying to deal with the concepts and how they applied to him and life in general. The OTT, emotive style of writing was just the fashionable and expected style of the time.

To be honest, the paragraph turned me a bit away from NFP (those sort of strongly worded comments usually are too strong for them to indulge in).

In religious contexts, I've seen even xSTJ's say things like that -- it seems to be a "T" level of harshness -- and S/N is unclear with this.

Again, strong religious beliefs *really* confuses type readings (!). We have to be very careful when religious beliefs are involved -- N people can sound rigid, S people can sound intuitive (from the spiritual level of framing the perspective).

And by the time he was writing his Confessions, he was much older, and NT's over a certain age are often characterised by remorse over realisation of their thoughtless (in the sense of thoughtlessness about other people's feelings and needs), arrogant and selfish behaviour in youth.

Didn't Augustine "fall away" later in life? I thought he was said to have backslidden...

I don't know much about the others, so you two can have at it some more and I will just listen quietly. :)
 

SolitaryWalker

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I disagree. The Christian values were the problems he was trying to figure out - he was raised as a pagan, remember, and trying to deal with the concepts and how they applied to him and life in general. The OTT, emotive style of writing was just the fashionable and expected style of the time. If you whittle out of it all the bits and pieces that are stock phrases from the period's literature, you get a different picture. And by the time he was writing his Confessions, he was much older, and NT's over a certain age are often characterised by remorse over realisation of their thoughtless (in the sense of thoughtlessness about other people's feelings and needs), arrogant and selfish behaviour in youth.



Again I disagree. He devoted a lot of his time to picking apart the various philosophical viewpoints of his day, and you're forgetting also that what today is classified as 'arts', religious and spiritual stuff associated with NF-ness, in his day, that was science and philosophy. His approach to religion was very much concerned with theology and philosophy, which is what the NT's of his day did - the NF's were more concerned with the charitable side of things, like St Francis of Assisi and his lepers, beggars, animals etc - the application of the theology and its relevance to human lives were what NF's did. Aquinas thought and wrote.



Yes to the last part, but no to not being actively involved. He was very active, very energetic and travelled all over the place spreading and promoting his philosophies, meeting with others, influencing and making changes in society. If he were alive today, I cannot imagine him being content to just write about his ideas and put them onto websites. He'd be the kind of person like me, who needs to go out and DO things, bring them face to face with other people and take action. Seems to me he wrote about things from experience, after having thought about them, refined them in the crucible of practice and then realised that some writing was necessary. INTP's tend to do it the other way around and to put experience at a much lower premium than ENTP's.


As for Augustine and Aquinas we ought to pay less attention to their philosophy and more to their biography. Emotions played a bigger role in their lives than logic, I do know that Aquinas never had a problem talking about feelings and by most that got to know him was described as highly sensitive. He appeared to be the kind of a person who'd never discredit someone's values or go against their feelings in favor of what makes sense.

Augustine was also relationship oriented in his life and spent a lot of time corresponding with others about philosophy on the personal level. Seemingly this was more important to him than just doing philosophy for its own end.
 

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As for Augustine and Aquinas we ought to pay less attention to their philosophy and more to their biography. Emotions played a bigger role in their lives than logic, I do know that Aquinas never had a problem talking about feelings and by most that got to know him was described as highly sensitive. He appeared to be the kind of a person who'd never discredit someone's values or go against their feelings in favor of what makes sense.

Augustine was also relationship oriented in his life and spent a lot of time corresponding with others about philosophy on the personal level. Seemingly this was more important to him than just doing philosophy for its own end.

Hm, well we'll just have to agree to disagree here, mainly cos I can't be bothered to explain why I disagree. Curse my short attention span :doh:

Suffice it to say that I also wouldn't necessarily OPENLY discredit someone else's values and I can be quite relationship oriented too, though I'm most definately not an F. It's how you approach these things and for what motive, plus what you hope to get out of them, I think, which is more telling than what exactly you approach. I might go along with your reasoning, only saying that it's more likely down to extraversion than Feeling, but there's no way you'll get me to agree that Aquinas or Augustine were Feelers.

I think St Paul the Apostle was xNTJ though... perhaps he might've been ISTJ when younger, and changed type when he got older. Not sure entirely, but there are definite INTJ-ish qualities to his letters and some ENTJ-ish qualities to his leadership style.

And yeah, what Jen said, about religion messing everything up regarding type behaviour :)
 

Mac

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Beethoven seems like an INTJ to me. I could be wrong though.

Dislike of Authority
Sources show he indulged in a particular disdain for authority, and for those superior to him in social rank. He would cease to perform at the piano if the audience chattered among themselves and did not give him their attention, while at soirées, he refused to perform if suddenly called upon to do so without any warning from his hosts in advance. Eventually, after many confrontations, the Archduke Rudolph found himself compelled to give orders that the usual rules of court etiquette did not apply to Beethoven.
(Source: Ludwig van Beethoven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


Blunt, hard to befriend, insightful, not very polite
In one's personal relations with him, an honest and direct approach was the only feasible one, as he could be extremely difficult to deal with on a face to face basis. His sense of morality was contradictory in the extreme. Abstractly - in his music - he loved the concept of humanity; practically - in daily life - he disliked most people, especially the aristocracy. "Strength is the morality of the man who stands out from the rest, and it is mine," he wrote to a friend. He also wrote in his diary, "This I feel and deeply comprehend: Life is not the greatest of blessings, but guilt is the greatest evil." The words are Schiller's but the sentiment is Beethoven's.
(Source: The Beethoven Mystique)

It can be said of Ludwig van Beethoven, especially from the time of his arrival in Vienna, that he was a young man of strong personality and at times quite difficult to get on with. Both his teachers and his patrons attest to this. He was also a person of noble ideas. He was very well respected in the circles in which he moved though his treatment of moralists and critics could never termed as being of a polite nature.
(Source: BEETHOVEN : Personality)


Perfectionist
When one realizes that life itself to Beethoven was a search for perfection, personified in his music, then his personality becomes more easily understood. For most people, life is about compromise and accepting less-than-perfect results in negotiations. But in his music and largely in his life as well, Beethoven viewed things from an "all or nothing" perspective, refusing to accept anything other than absolute perfection, reworking his compositions for years on end, and finally accepting his own creations as the nearest thing to perfection that he could achieve.
(Source: Ludwig van Beethoven: A Musical Titan)


Misunderstood, unique
Taking this perspective into account, it is no small wonder that Beethoven was viewed by his patrons, colleagues, and his students as a person difficult to know, communicate with, and understand. In the history of music, he is unique as a composer and as a person. His nine symphonies and thirty-two piano sonatas are essential study pieces for any serious student of music anywhere in the world today. These and other masterworks clearly place Beethoven's music as the culmination of Viennese Classical style. Today, Beethoven is regarded as the dominant musical figure during the first half of the Nineteenth Century, and scarcely any significant composer since his time has escaped his influence in some way.
(Source: Ludwig van Beethoven: A Musical Titan)


Arrogant, witty
In the midst of his gaining popularity, Beethoven gained quite an ego. If Beethoven for some reason did not like the audience he was to perform for, he would not play. If he were in the middle of a concert and a member of the audience was the slightest bit "out of place" (behavior wise) he would walk off of the stage. On top of having a great ego, Beethoven was quick to anger. One time Beethoven was eating a bowl of soup in a restaurant and he didn't like the service he was receiving, so he poured the hot bowl of soup on the waiter and stood there laughing at the man. He also had a scuffle with his brother; Nikolaus Johann gave a business card to Beethoven that read: "Johann van Beethoven –landowner" Beethoven turned the card over and scribbled "Ludwig van Beethoven –brain owner."
(Source: The Beethoven Page at MIDIWORLD)

I actually laughed out loud at the "brain owner" part. :laugh:
 

yenom

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There seems to be a shortage of ENTj's here. So i'll add a few :cheese::

Douglas MacArthur
George C Marshall
Franklin Rossevelt (could be ESTP)
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Genghis Khan ?
Napoleon (napoleon has some pretty strong Ne though)
Constantine the Great and several Roman Emperors


By the way, i am not an Entj.
 
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