[NT] Neurosis and NTs

[Jack Flak]

Yes, but if you've kept it going for long enough and you're found out, they may be lucid enough to thank you for it.

Begrudgingly, of course. Because that's how NTs are with this sort of thing.

Some, perhaps. I've been on the receiving end though, was having none of it, and retain my spite many years later.

 

[LadyJaye]

This holds true for NFs you are aware of, on average? I'm seeking understanding here, not debating.

I'm not debating with you. I'm disagreeing with you. Different.

I know some NF's who are healthy enough to analyze themselves - otherwise anyone could tell us how we should feel about a given situation and we'd be forced to accept it. I do also know a few NF's who are blown around on every breeze because they haven't mastered their emotions.

Yeah, but if they're neurotic NFs, sometimes they trust their feelings so much that you can't tell them that just because they feel something that it's an accurate view of the situation at hand. However, when I'm in a neurotic/depressed state, I have the same blinders on. It's hard to imagine that life isn't exactly as I'm perceiving it, even though I might logically know that it's a faulty perception.

This is true. I think it's just two sides of the same coin, though. I think when anyone is in a state of upheaval, they start spinning in circles with whatever processes they trust. I do have a big problem with wanting to fix things and wanting to do everything by myself, but I have learned that I pretty much downward-spiral if I let that go on. Nothing teaches you that no man is an island quite like having to deal with anxiety or depression. You can't logic your way out of those things.

I agree. When you're in the grip, your primary functions go from an asset to a liability, especially when under personal duress. I had problems with anxiety several years ago, and it was a herculean effort to cut out the feelings from what I knew to be the truth, because my emotions were telling me false things. I can imagine that an NT being fed false logic would be just as upending.

 

[LadyJaye]

Some, perhaps. I've been on the receiving end though, was having none of it, and retain my spite many years later.

This is what I'm not getting - you're defending the fact that you've belligerently not sought help, or allowed help to be given to you, despite the fact you might not have been the most qualified opinion? Why would you do that?

 

[Salomé]

Again, the average NT and average NF are both "healthy."

It still seems to me the average adult NT might be better equipped to ward off and deal with neuroses if under their assault.

Arrrgh! You started talking about "the average". If I said unhealthy, the question wouldn't have made sense.

How can a person who refuses help/intervention when they are in the middle of a mental/emotional crises possibly be healthier than someone who doesn't?

 

[Haphazard]

Then again if it's something that can reasonably be considered a small problem, the NT is probably better off left alone. They'll figure it out themselves eventually...

 

[Jack Flak]

I'm not debating with you. I'm disagreeing with you. Different.

Thank you for providing insight and clarification to my incomplete notions on the subject.

I know some NF's who are healthy enough to analyze themselves - otherwise anyone could tell us how we should feel about a given situation and we'd be forced to accept it.

I doubt anyone thinks that's how it works. Certainly not me.

I agree. When you're in the grip, your primary functions go from an asset to a liability, especially when under personal duress. I had problems with anxiety several years ago, and it was a herculean effort to cut out the feelings from what I knew to be the truth, because my emotions were telling me false things. I can imagine that an NT being fed false logic would be just as upending.

My rhetoric has revolved around the competition between thinking and feeling in the mind, and that if feeling is corrupted (as I consider to be what neurosis does), logical thinking capability has the potential to control it, but not necessarily.

As far as logical thinking being corrupted, naturally that would be worse for an NT than an NF.

 

[Tallulah]

I agree. When you're in the grip, your primary functions go from an asset to a liability, especially when under personal duress. I had problems with anxiety several years ago, and it was a herculean effort to cut out the feelings from what I knew to be the truth, because my emotions were telling me false things. I can imagine that an NT being fed false logic would be just as upending.

That's it, exactly. VERY disconcerting, but the positive aspect is that it becomes so apparent that it's wrong that you have no choice but to get some outside input. And you learn to stop trying to fix yourself, really quickly.

 

[Jack Flak]

This is what I'm not getting - you're defending the fact that you've belligerently not sought help, or allowed help to be given to you, despite the fact you might not have been the most qualified opinion? Why would you do that?

It's complicated! Though primarily it was considered intrusion, violation.

 

[Salomé]

Jack - I recommend "The Schopenhauer Cure" by Irvin Yalom.
Says it better than I ever could.

 

[Haphazard]

When I saw that Tallulah had posted, I misread the thread title as 'Halitosis and NTs'...

 

[LadyJaye]

Then again if it's something that can reasonably be considered a small problem, the NT is probably better off left alone. They'll figure it out themselves eventually...

NF's are just as capable of figuring out how to get things done as an NT, in about the same amount of time in general. I don't see a learning curve because of logic vs feeling.

 

[Haphazard]

NF's are just as capable of figuring out how to get things done as an NT, in about the same amount of time in general. I don't see a learning curve because of logic vs feeling.

It's not a matter of learning curve. It's a matter of an NT would get a helluva lot more annoyed than an NF.

 

[Jack Flak]

It's not a matter of learning curve. It's a matter of an NT would get a helluva lot more annoyed than an NF.

NFs have been called more cooperative-minded, and I've never disagreed with that.

 

[LadyJaye]

That's it, exactly. VERY disconcerting, but the positive aspect is that it becomes so apparent that it's wrong that you have no choice but to get some outside input. And you learn to stop trying to fix yourself, really quickly.

Yes, exactly. I can imagine that an NT who becomes aware of their need for outside help would seek it as soon as the situation provided the insight needed to do that.

As an NF, I also bristle at the idea of anyone trying to meddle with me, uninvited opinions and attempts to dig out information that I'm not willing to give. Even as a child, I clammed up the minute I perceived an adult trying to extract information from me that I didn't want to share. But, I do know when I need help - I have that AHA! moment, when I'm given a revelation that I need to seek the outside opinion of others, because I know I need others to guide me. I know I can't do everything myself, even as much as I would want to.

Bottom line - I think both NFs and NTs, when mentally or emotionally afflicted, will do the same unhealthy things.

 

[Jack Flak]

Yes, exactly. I can imagine that an NT who becomes aware of their need for outside help would seek it as soon as the situation provided the insight needed to do that.

Then, when the outside help turns out to be completely ineffective, the NT returns to self-repair and eventually solves the problem.

 

[LadyJaye]

I doubt anyone thinks that's how it works. Certainly not me.

Oh, I would say that more than a few in the NT Private forum would think that about us, and more.

It's complicated! Though primarily it was considered intrusion, violation.

Well, of course someone is intruding. They would have to in order to know what was wrong. But, I do agree that it's incredibly uncomfortable. I don't enjoy it.

 

[LadyJaye]

Then, when the outside help turns out to be completely ineffective, the NT returns to self-repair and eventually solves the problem.

Or wallows around in it helplessly for years. One of the two.

 

[Jack Flak]

Or wallows around in it helplessly for years. One of the two.

Always a possibility. Something to consider though, is that the mere act of "getting help" is not a panacea, and the methods of others are usually workarounds as much as one's own methods are.

 

[Haphazard]

If I had to guess, the acceptance of help from others in these matters would go like this:

E > I

FJ > TJ > FP > TP

I dunno about TJ versus FP, though. Unless a TJ finds that the problem is seriously affecting something tangible that they can obviously see, they'll be as resistant as the FP.

Though nobody likes it when it happens.

 

[LadyJaye]

Always a possibility. Something to consider though, is that the mere act of "getting help" is not a panacea, and the methods of others are usually workarounds as much as one's own methods are.

No. There's no guarantee that seeking help will fix the problem, but refusing help is compounding it. And assuming that help will inevitably fail you, and that your method of self cobbling will fix everything isn't accurate either. I'm sure your self help method has failed you on more than one occasion.