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  1. #21
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    Yes, very INTJ, if I'm not mistaken
    Yeah, I might be a slightly softer version of one, but I have no doubt I am one. I will add that I like fantasy and magical thinking as entertainment so maybe that's not zero tolerance. ;-)
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  2. #22
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    It's not a very popular assessment, but I think INTJ is far more of a feminine type than a masculine one. I think INTJ females have a much easier time with life than INTJ males, which is pretty evident by the ratio of cool INTJ men (rare) to cool INTJ women (less rare). The stereotype that INTJ women are masculine is based on the most superficial of characteristics, but if you look at the core of their motivations (analyze first, act second, helpless to baby Se sensory stimulus, Tert-Fi narcissism, etc) they are more aligned with natural femininity.

  3. #23
    Vulnera Sanentur Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    I am as sure as I will ever be and I wasn't really intending to get into much detail about that. I'm really having troubles articulating what I am trying to find out because it seems feelings-based and I can't get my head around it. In my offline world I am surrounded by sensors and feelers and have been frequently told that I am not acceptable as I am-think too much, too opinionated, too blunt, too intense, too serious, pedantic, etc. Rarely do I meet other women I can relate to though I do have a few good friends. I suppose I am just trying to find out if there are any women out there who are more like me. It feels a bit pathetic, frankly.
    Based on the later posts in this thread, I would say you and I have significant similarities. One thing that makes it hard for me to compare myself to others, or to generalizations, is that I get very little feedback from others on how I come across, at least as an adult. This means I am basing the comparison mostly on the thought processes and preferred interaction style you have described. For instance, I would react the same way to someone becoming agitated over something, though I am more likely to say, "getting all worked up about it won't help", which is also not appreciated. I, too, don't relate to most women. I don't relate to most men either, although I have more men than women among my friends and acquaintances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    I think the INTJ female stereotypes are silly and not accurate but they persist. I saw someone telling a woman she couldn't possible be an INTJ because she loves to dance. Stereotypes: tomboyish, cold, masculine, robotic-similar to the male stereotypes except with more restrictions on how they are supposed to dress.
    Well, cold and robotic apply to all INTJs (as stereotypes). Tomboyish and masculine just mean that women INTJs are women, and are not expected to behave in certain ways, whereas men are. Fill in the blanks on exactly what might make INTJ women seem tomboyish and masculine, and we are probably right back to the generic (male-assumed) stereotype. I have no idea what these restrictions on dress are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    I will try to do a better job socialising here and meeting people but basically I am crap at that. I will say something awkward, at least in my own mind, and retreat for a long time. I find it very difficult to function without tone of voice, body language and facial expression clues. I will be misinterpreted and I will misinterpret others and I hate that for the way it interferes with accuracy and best understanding.
    I actually find things easier here without those so-called "cues", which I find get misinterpreted more often than not. There is no choice here but for people to focus on the actual words I am putting across, since there isn't much else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    I was raised by a mother who drilled it into me that Fe is the most important thing, and this is both useful and challenging. I think that when I use what I will call this Fe-skill, I appear more INFJ. The difference is between behaving the way I have learned I am supposed to as opposed to behaving in the way I would really like to. It is also in assuming that my thoughts and mental responses are 'wrong' and that the Fe way is the 'right' way.
    My mother was the same way (likely ESFJ), and as a result, I learned many social scripts that I can now call upon at will when necessary. Fortunately, I never internalized that my preferred responses were wrong, just not what most other people preferred to see. Those few people I ran across whose social preferences were otherwise always stood out in my mind.
    Though the ground was burnt and everything turned into ashes, we will revive again. The sky is still blue, the crashing waves from long ago are unchanged. This is Earth, our planet. This dream is in the hearts of people; so long as they do not abandon it, it will not fade away. For the sake of tomorrow, keep a song in your heart. For the sake of our future, let us stop our crying and stand on our ground firmly.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Based on the later posts in this thread, I would say you and I have significant similarities. One thing that makes it hard for me to compare myself to others, or to generalizations, is that I get very little feedback from others on how I come across, at least as an adult. This means I am basing the comparison mostly on the thought processes and preferred interaction style you have described. For instance, I would react the same way to someone becoming agitated over something, though I am more likely to say, "getting all worked up about it won't help", which is also not appreciated. I, too, don't relate to most women. I don't relate to most men either, although I have more men than women among my friends and acquaintances.


    Well, cold and robotic apply to all INTJs (as stereotypes). Tomboyish and masculine just mean that women INTJs are women, and are not expected to behave in certain ways, whereas men are. Fill in the blanks on exactly what might make INTJ women seem tomboyish and masculine, and we are probably right back to the generic (male-assumed) stereotype. I have no idea what these restrictions on dress are.


    I actually find things easier here without those so-called "cues", which I find get misinterpreted more often than not. There is no choice here but for people to focus on the actual words I am putting across, since there isn't much else.


    My mother was the same way (likely ESFJ), and as a result, I learned many social scripts that I can now call upon at will when necessary. Fortunately, I never internalized that my preferred responses were wrong, just not what most other people preferred to see. Those few people I ran across whose social preferences were otherwise always stood out in my mind.
    Thanks for your detailed reply, Coriolis. I do so much of my thinking by asking questions, comparing, listening to others, reconsidering or not, that I am not really sure of my own ideas until I have discussed them with others. While I realise that INTJ stereotypes found on Pinterest or blogs are best taken as entertainment, having been so much an alien in my own world I was probably a bit disappointed to still feel like one even in my supposed tribe. Also, as I have explained gradually in my posts, I am recovering from years of emotional abuse which was probably successful in part because I had internalised the idea of my 'wrongness' as a child. Learning that I am INTJ is actually very helpful for that healing and I think especially so being female. I am a 9w1 enneagram and uumlau has pointed out to me how that has likely contributed.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    Sensitive, but not in the way you would expect it.

    That part really interests me. Can you explain more?

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    INTJ females or people who know an INTJ female, how are you like and how are you not like the INTJ stereotypes.
    Well IRL I have a friend into typology who is very sure I'm INTJ.

    Where I think I differ from the stereotype:
    For what ever reason I come across as an NF online. I think this comes down to a couple of factors. I have been saying 'I feel' instead of 'I think' as I am practicing to better communicate my feelings. Due to being in a relationship I have also had to look into better ways of communication. Whilst my instinct is to correct and look for solutions I have had to learn to listen. The kind of listening where I relate to the other person and rephrase what they have said.

    The other factor, life has become stressful for me. This has forced me to consider what in life is important to me, and where my passion lie. It means rather than following a process based solely on consequences and taking the best outcome possible based on what works, I now include my interest in decision making.

    Where I differ elsewhere, my friends would not say I am cold. Yes quiet, very calm, rational, thoughtful. They have never said I'm cold (unless they keep it to themselves). I find people seem to feel comfortable enough around me to divulge their issues. Generally as they know me they seem to be receptive to my honesty. I have been called a robot..

    Another area where I differ. I am more likely to follow authority. Whilst it is about consequence of action, due to my upbringing I am not a risk taker.

    Also I don't spend my time always correcting people when they are wrong. I get people don't always like this. I am more concerned with an outcome of a situation (and what will work) over being right.

    I don't identify with being a tomboy. Well I don't tend to identify with any group. It's about my interest and where I am competent. Whether that is masculine or feminine is coincidence.

    Where I fit the stereotype:
    I spend a lot of time in my own company. Have acquired a lot of information and and have an affinity for knowledge. People generally perceive me as intelligent, though at times with my head in the clouds. I am confident in myself (I know what I know, I know what I want, and I generally know what will work). I have never followed the crowd. I am very imaginative. I tend to be honest and upfront when communicating and can be blunt. I don't flirt or play those social games. I tend to be a long range thinker that can (and I do) miss the details. I am generally solution orientated.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'll tell you a story.

    It was the day before I was getting married, and my brother (who was my best man) was nowhere to be found. He hadn't called. He hadn't picked up his tuxedo. And well, I'm about to get married so I'm extremely agitated.

    I was staying with my grandmother at the time, as she lived only a few blocks from the church my fiancee and I were to be married the next day. As usual, about this time, she was in the den, watching her favorite soaps while knitting something or another. I walk in and vent all this anguish at her, all my frustration, all my worry.

    She calmly listened the whole time.

    When I was done, she said, "Your brother can take care of himself. It isn't your job to worry about him. You're going to get married tomorrow. That's your job."

    In print, this sounds so abrupt and terse and maybe even mean. (Also, I'm paraphrasing a bit, since this was years ago, and I remember her message and demeanor if not her words.) But right there, right then, she said it so very calmly. It wasn't just her words. It was clear that SHE wasn't worried about my brother. Moreover, she put pretty much all of the Stoic philosophy into so very few words. Don't worry about the things you can't control, focus on that which you can control.

    When she said those words, I calmed down completely. Everything was all right. The wedding went very smoothly.



    ...

    Now you've met my grandmother. So yeah, if you need an INTJ female to emulate, feel free to emulate her.
    Even with the generation gap I can't help but relate to your grandma. Like seriously only weeks a go I am in a quiet room, knitting. My partner's brother walks in and vents his frustrations and worries about another brother. I sit there listening calmly. My advice when he was done "You can't control your brother's actions so it's pointless worrying. It's better to focus on what you can do about the situation."

    Yup. I can't deny the similarity here.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaedow View Post
    Well IRL I have a friend into typology who is very sure I'm INTJ.

    Where I think I differ from the stereotype:
    For what ever reason I come across as an NF online. I think this comes down to a couple of factors. I have been saying 'I feel' instead of 'I think' as I am practicing to better communicate my feelings. Due to being in a relationship I have also had to look into better ways of communication. Whilst my instinct is to correct and look for solutions I have had to learn to listen. The kind of listening where I relate to the other person and rephrase what they have said.

    The other factor, life has become stressful for me. This has forced me to consider what in life is important to me, and where my passion lie. It means rather than following a process based solely on consequences and taking the best outcome possible based on what works, I now include my interest in decision making.

    Where I differ elsewhere, my friends would not say I am cold. Yes quiet, very calm, rational, thoughtful. They have never said I'm cold (unless they keep it to themselves). I find people seem to feel comfortable enough around me to divulge their issues. Generally as they know me they seem to be receptive to my honesty. I have been called a robot..

    Another area where I differ. I am more likely to follow authority. Whilst it is about consequence of action, due to my upbringing I am not a risk taker.

    Also I don't spend my time always correcting people when they are wrong. I get people don't always like this. I am more concerned with an outcome of a situation (and what will work) over being right.

    I don't identify with being a tomboy. Well I don't tend to identify with any group. It's about my interest and where I am competent. Whether that is masculine or feminine is coincidence.

    Where I fit the stereotype:
    I spend a lot of time in my own company. Have acquired a lot of information and and have an affinity for knowledge. People generally perceive me as intelligent, though at times with my head in the clouds. I am confident in myself (I know what I know, I know what I want, and I generally know what will work). I have never followed the crowd. I am very imaginative. I tend to be honest and upfront when communicating and can be blunt. I don't flirt or play those social games. I tend to be a long range thinker that can (and I do) miss the details. I am generally solution orientated.
    Thank you for taking the time to write all of this detail. I can relate to most of it and it does make you sound INTJ. I suspect many people come across differently online than they do in person even if it's just because in this context we lack the voice tone, mannerisms and expressions that give us more information. Even if someone speaks in monotone and makes almost no movements or expressions, that is information about them.

    Like you I often say I feel, but it was something that was taught to me and has become habit. I am not sure of your age but if you are anything close to mine you may recall a time when for the sake of communication people were encouraged to make I statements instead of direct accusations. An I statement begins with "I feel.." and is supposed to be less threatening and confrontational.

    Following authority may be logical at times and if the authority figure isn't directly opposing or contradicting your values it's not so difficult. I don't really like being told what to do but I also don't like to lead. If the situation isn't overly important to me and I am aware that my job is just to get some task done, I don't even mind being told what to do and how to do it. Perhaps this is similar for you.

    I don't spend all my time correcting people when they are wrong but I want to. LOL and that is partly what helped me to realise I am INTJ and not INFJ. I was confusing learned behaviour and compromises made for the sake of getting along with others for valuing harmony. The differences can perhaps be subtle. I don't value harmony because I see it as the most valuable thing and people's feelings must not be hurt etc. I see that somtimes, perhaps often, the end goal requires that everybody get along and cooperate or that I can achieve more if people are not irritated or offended by me.

    I notice that you used the word 'whilst' which is a word I use to. This suggests to me that you are either British or over fifty (or both) I have not yet gone to your profile to find out if you reveal that. Am I correct? :-)

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to write all of this detail. I can relate to most of it and it does make you sound INTJ. I suspect many people come across differently online than they do in person even if it's just because in this context we lack the voice tone, mannerisms and expressions that give us more information. Even if someone speaks in monotone and makes almost no movements or expressions, that is information about them.
    No worries.

    Yep I tend to speak in monotone lol. Though my voice tends to get louder if I am excited about something. I don't always realise this.

    That actually brings up another point, how people themselves communicate physically can translate to how they read what someone else says online. In a way placing their own mannerisms into the text.

    Like you I often say I feel, but it was something that was taught to me and has become habit. I am not sure of your age but if you are anything close to mine you may recall a time when for the sake of communication people were encouraged to make I statements instead of direct accusations. An I statement begins with "I feel.." and is supposed to be less threatening and confrontational.
    Unfortunately growing up I was never taught this. My family don't take the time to talk about their feelings. More they tend to react on them, and at times quite explosively.

    Due to my relationship, the ups and downs and things just not making sense I have looked into better ways of communicating. I've done a lot of reading about the 'I' statements. Yes, being less threatening and confrontational is why I have adopted it into my general communication. It also allows me to better state my emotional state explicitly rather than an indirect statement that can further lead to passive aggressive behaviour.

    Also apparently the general population give more weight to an "I feel" statement than an "I think" statement. "I think" tends to not sound confident and is seen as something you can be incorrect about and therefore argued against. "I feel", well people don't seem to think you can feel 'wrong'. Even in the court of law apparently.

    Following authority may be logical at times and if the authority figure isn't directly opposing or contradicting your values it's not so difficult. I don't really like being told what to do but I also don't like to lead. If the situation isn't overly important to me and I am aware that my job is just to get some task done, I don't even mind being told what to do and how to do it. Perhaps this is similar for you.
    I can relate. Though leading for me is generally not an issue. I tend to take on the role if no one else steps up. I don't enjoy the spotlight however.

    Growing up doing what my parents asked meant two things. Firstly I was not initially yelled at or threatened to be smacked. Secondly I ended up gaining more freedom to do what I wanted as my parents trusted me. So it is ingrained from a young age to do as I'm told or bad things happen.
    The hypocrisy of it all is my dad will openly say I have rights and my boss can't make certain demands (a bit idealistic), yet if I apply this to him well the conversation would not end well for me.



    I don't spend all my time correcting people when they are wrong but I want to. LOL and that is partly what helped me to realise I am INTJ and not INFJ. I was confusing learned behaviour and compromises made for the sake of getting along with others for valuing harmony. The differences can perhaps be subtle. I don't value harmony because I see it as the most valuable thing and people's feelings must not be hurt etc. I see that somtimes, perhaps often, the end goal requires that everybody get along and cooperate or that I can achieve more if people are not irritated or offended by me.
    It's pretty much the same for me. I may correct missinformation, I may correct someone who has the wrong idea about my intent. Yet I see it as a waste of time to correct someone about a belief they hold and have no intention of changing. I will also not correct someone who is going to get upset in front of me and make things more difficult.

    I value harmony in the sense it is easier to deal with people that way. I can remain calm and emotionally neutral to make better decisions. People getting upset becomes tricky for me to navigate. Likely I will say or do something that makes it worst. This is another reason I have looked into those "I" statements and other communication techniques.

    Also I think being a type 9w1 is what contributes to my avoidance of conflict.
    I am not avoidance of things like debates. Nor do I see it necessary for people to agree. I tend to be more concerned about what I can learn, and what works. And yes, sometimes everybody needs to cooperate to achieve an end goal.

    I notice that you used the word 'whilst' which is a word I use to. This suggests to me that you are either British or over fifty (or both) I have not yet gone to your profile to find out if you reveal that. Am I correct? :-)
    Haha. Well if you halve fifty then you'd be quite close to my age :P
    I'm not British. I am from Australia which is close in regards to being English speaking.

    As you have seen a connection between yourself and I, my guess is your guess about me is a reflection of yourself?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaedow View Post
    No worries.

    Yep I tend to speak in monotone lol. Though my voice tends to get louder if I am excited about something. I don't always realise this.


    I do not speak in monotone but sometimes I am very quiet and am not even aware that I am. I get loud if I am excited too. If I am passionate about my subject everything about me is intense, including my voice. I can be quite bland and apathetic or animated and expressive depending on context. I learned from an early age that reading out loud with expression was considered good so I incorporated that into my speech too. I think my switching back and forth can confuse people though. If I am not being animated and expressive they wonder what they have done wrong, if I am angry or unhappy.






    I value harmony in the sense it is easier to deal with people that way. I can remain calm and emotionally neutral to make better decisions. People getting upset becomes tricky for me to navigate. Likely I will say or do something that makes it worst. This is another reason I have looked into those "I" statements and other communication techniques.

    I agree.

    Also I think being a type 9w1 is what contributes to my avoidance of conflict.
    I am not avoidance of things like debates. Nor do I see it necessary for people to agree. I tend to be more concerned about what I can learn, and what works. And yes, sometimes everybody needs to cooperate to achieve an end goal.

    I might be a 9w1 also. I have tested that a few times and it looks like the best fit for me, though I have tested other things as well. I can't really sort out enneagrams for myself yet.

    Haha. Well if you halve fifty then you'd be quite close to my age :P
    I'm not British. I am from Australia which is close in regards to being English speaking.

    As you have seen a connection between yourself and I, my guess is your guess about me is a reflection of yourself?
    You are only slightly older than my son. LOL And I did consider Australia but was getting a bit lazy and didn't type that. I am 49 and Canadian. :-) In that sense you are quite right. I saw a connection in that word and thought you might be either old enough to use archaic language or British/British colonial.

    sorry-this is a bit of a messed up format but I'm a bit under the weather and will only make a mess if I attempt to fix it. Hopefully you can sort out your own words from mine.

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