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  1. #11
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    Oh that's a great story! I must quibble over the idea that I need an INTJ female to emulate but still, appreciate the story very much. It actually reminds me of how I really irritated my ex-husband because my response to all his mini-crises was to say "Well, the world will not end so it's going to be okay." He did not appreciate this much. I censor myself constantly but not when I think I am actually giving good advice. LOL

    I'm too old to emulate anyone. I am who I am and who I have always been, but I have been told all my life that I am wrong and need fixing so I am, without a doubt, a little bit wounded by that and seeking to heal my own wounds by proof that I am not defective, though possible alien. ;-)
    Fortunately, my grandmother was giving her advice to me, another INTJ. We always got along very well. It wasn't until many years after she died that I learned how much my aunts and uncles and many others were always tip-toeing around her. E.g., my Dad remarked that I could give my grandmother gifts that NO ONE ELSE could get away with, for example a mix tape with 20 different versions of Pachelbel's Canon.

    I didn't mean to suggest that you had to emulate her. But it's always nice to see that other perfectly sane people are pretty much just like you, even as they're definitely different from 98% of the rest of humanity.

    In any event, if your typical advice is "Well, the world will not end so it's going to be okay," well, now you know you really are an INTJ female.

    As for those who don't appreciate it much, it turns out my ex-wife didn't like it much either. She's ESFJ.

    Belatedly, I learned that a key part of interacting with people who don't entirely believe that the world not ending is sufficient for everything being OK is to just listen a while longer. Let the other person get it all out. Say things that rephrase their complaints in your own words (NOT in a snarky way!) so they know you heard them. THEN it's actually likely to work when you say it will all be OK, maybe with comments along the lines of, "Yeah, I've been through that before. It totally sucks, but it usually works out just fine as long as you don't panic and make even more of a mess."

    I very much doubt you need fixing, but yeah, if you're INTJ, everyone is going to tell you that you're completely wrong. Is it any wonder that we become experts in proving that we're always right?

    ...

    My aunt (my INTJ grandmother's daughter) complained to me recently that her mother was always right. Not in a bigoted way, insisting that she is correct. No. No matter what the contentious issue was, you could go to the dictionary, you could go to the encyclopedia, and you would read almost word-for-word what she had already told you the right answer is.

    I told my aunt the secret for an INTJ being "always right": it's because we INTJs never insist that we are correct unless we've already 100% sure about it. Otherwise, we don't insist that we are right. I don't think she entirely believed me.

    One of the weird differences between INTJs and other types is that other types don't usually see a problem with claiming that oneself is correct even when one lacks any evidence.

    So, no, we aren't defective. We aren't aliens. We just start from a different set of standards that take a long while to map to those of the rest of humanity.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    So, uumlau, I get the impression you are this site's token nice INTJ and I do not mean that in a derogatory way at all. Your responses remind me of how I would respond to someone in my situation. I'm listed as 'senior member' but I've not really been here very long nor spent much time here. I'm not overly comfortable here, to be honest. Haven't found my tribe. In the off-line world I do just fine with the whole being warm, kind and gentle with people. It's mainly just a problem that I hate small talk and irritate people by trying to make everything something deeper. And to be honest I find most people shallow, boring and a bit clueless so I lose patience and get exhausted trying to hide that.
    My ex may not have appreciated my INTJness but he was the one who had narcissistic tendencies, was controlling, manipulative and emotionally abusive. I was gaslighted for years and perhaps I am a case study for what happens when this is done to an INTJ who should normally be coming across to the world as super confident and not giving any fucks.

    There is a stereotype that the ISFJ thinks she is always right and that is my mother to a T. And she is always right about the concrete things. She doesn't go deep. She tells me there is no peace in going deep the way I do. And she is quite certain she is right about that.

    So, here I am exposing my wounds -hah! That never bothers me. It's not even a fraction of who I am.
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  3. #13
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    I met one, she was a lawyer, and she was typical lawyer self determined, don't take no shit. Judge someone else wrongly and they get ticked off. Sensitive, but not in the way you would expect it. But that sounds like typical INTJ anyway.
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  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    So, uumlau, I get the impression you are this site's token nice INTJ and I do not mean that in a derogatory way at all. Your responses remind me of how I would respond to someone in my situation. I'm listed as 'senior member' but I've not really been here very long nor spent much time here. I'm not overly comfortable here, to be honest. Haven't found my tribe. In the off-line world I do just fine with the whole being warm, kind and gentle with people. It's mainly just a problem that I hate small talk and irritate people by trying to make everything something deeper. And to be honest I find most people shallow, boring and a bit clueless so I lose patience and get exhausted trying to hide that.
    My ex may not have appreciated my INTJness but he was the one who had narcissistic tendencies, was controlling, manipulative and emotionally abusive. I was gaslighted for years and perhaps I am a case study for what happens when this is done to an INTJ who should normally be coming across to the world as super confident and not giving any fucks.

    There is a stereotype that the ISFJ thinks she is always right and that is my mother to a T. And she is always right about the concrete things. She doesn't go deep. She tells me there is no peace in going deep the way I do. And she is quite certain she is right about that.

    So, here I am exposing my wounds -hah! That never bothers me. It's not even a fraction of who I am.
    I'm an INFJ with a lot of "T," if that makes sense. I was also in a relationship much like yours and it has taken a toll on me, making me "harder" and probably a tad cold at times. I'm definitely blunt, but I enjoy shock value and entertaining people with my sass and humor.

    Anyway, I relate to you and I think you'll find some others here that could maybe become your TypC tribe.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    I'm an INFJ with a lot of "T," if that makes sense. I was also in a relationship much like yours and it has taken a toll on me, making me "harder" and probably a tad cold at times. I'm definitely blunt, but I enjoy shock value and entertaining people with my sass and humor.

    Anyway, I relate to you and I think you'll find some others here that could maybe become your TypC tribe.

    Hi, Rarebird, what you say does make sense because I once thought I was INFJ with a lot of T. Eventually it became obvious that I am INTJ who was socialised to be so aware of Fe that it tortures me. LOL

    I will try to do a better job socialising here and meeting people but basically I am crap at that. I will say something awkward, at least in my own mind, and retreat for a long time. I find it very difficult to function without tone of voice, body language and facial expression clues. I will be misinterpreted and I will misinterpret others and I hate that for the way it interferes with accuracy and best understanding.

    I tend to like shock value too. Often my sense of humour falls flat for other people. I deadpan things and am taken literally. I am a soft mossy layer thinly laid over a cold hard stone one which covers a molten core.
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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    Hi, Rarebird, what you say does make sense because I once thought I was INFJ with a lot of T. Eventually it became obvious that I am INTJ who was socialised to be so aware of Fe that it tortures me. LOL

    I will try to do a better job socialising here and meeting people but basically I am crap at that. I will say something awkward, at least in my own mind, and retreat for a long time. I find it very difficult to function without tone of voice, body language and facial expression clues. I will be misinterpreted and I will misinterpret others and I hate that for the way it interferes with accuracy and best understanding.

    I tend to like shock value too. Often my sense of humour falls flat for other people. I deadpan things and am taken literally. I am a soft mossy layer thinly laid over a cold hard stone one which covers a molten core.
    You know, you really do sound an awful lot like me. In fact, I have spoke about how I often reveal deep things here and then want to run away or feel really embarrassed. My humor is very dry, and people often miss that completely. I speak (type) in a semi-flat conversational manner. People often inject emotion or anger into things I write when it simply isn't there. Part of that is because I am a little blunt and swear a lot, so they probably think I am worked up when in fact I'm just being me.

    And your description of yourself was very INFJ-ish, btw. I'm not saying you're an INFJ, but I am one and I can relate. I'm pretty sensitive inside, but I act kinda tough and distant. Well, it's not necessarily an act, more just the way I come across. Some of that is because I am detached because I am in Ni-land, some of it is because there is a lot of e5 in me. But at my core, when I tear down my walls for the very few I let in, I am a soft and nurturing INFJ 4 who just wants someone to love me as much as I love them. I just happen to be a sassy fucker too
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    You know, you really do sound an awful lot like me. In fact, I have spoke about how I often reveal deep things here and then want to run away or feel really embarrassed. My humor is very dry, and people often miss that completely. I speak (type) in a semi-flat conversational manner. People often inject emotion or anger into things I write when it simply isn't there. Part of that is because I am a little blunt and swear a lot, so they probably think I am worked up when in fact I'm just being me.

    And your description of yourself was very INFJ-ish, btw. I'm not saying you're an INFJ, but I am one and I can relate. I'm pretty sensitive inside, but I act kinda tough and distant. Well, it's not necessarily an act, more just the way I come across. Some of that is because I am detached because I am in Ni-land, some of it is because there is a lot of e5 in me. But at my core, when I tear down my walls for the very few I let in, I am a soft and nurturing INFJ 4 who just wants someone to love me as much as I love them. I just happen to be a sassy fucker too
    I think that INFJs and INTJs can be fairly similar in many ways and I relate to many INFJ descriptions about themselves. I know some people can't tell if they are INFP or INFJ but I would never mistake myself for an INFP. I was raised by a mother who drilled it into me that Fe is the most important thing, and this is both useful and challenging. I think that when I use what I will call this Fe-skill, I appear more INFJ. The difference is between behaving the way I have learned I am supposed to as opposed to behaving in the way I would really like to. It is also in assuming that my thoughts and mental responses are 'wrong' and that the Fe way is the 'right' way. Whether taking an MBTI test or working your type out by examining the cognitive functions, the challenge is to distinguish what your true thoughts and behaviours are as opposed to what you think you should be or what you want to be. My INTJ self becomes INFJ-ish when I go with what I was taught I 'should' be.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    I think that INFJs and INTJs can be fairly similar in many ways and I relate to many INFJ descriptions about themselves. I know some people can't tell if they are INFP or INFJ but I would never mistake myself for an INFP. I was raised by a mother who drilled it into me that Fe is the most important thing, and this is both useful and challenging. I think that when I use what I will call this Fe-skill, I appear more INFJ. The difference is between behaving the way I have learned I am supposed to as opposed to behaving in the way I would really like to. It is also in assuming that my thoughts and mental responses are 'wrong' and that the Fe way is the 'right' way. Whether taking an MBTI test or working your type out by examining the cognitive functions, the challenge is to distinguish what your true thoughts and behaviours are as opposed to what you think you should be or what you want to be. My INTJ self becomes INFJ-ish when I go with what I was taught I 'should' be.
    By this description, I would at times be INTJ then. There are times when I just have to speak up, or simply do not care. It depends on my relationship with the person/people involved and what the repercussions might be. It also depends on my anxiety and energy levels. I sometimes forego speaking up if I feel like I just don't have it in me. I can be an asshole sometimes, and later think to myself "why the fuck did you say that outright like that?" But I'm not always like that. I have a friend at work who constantly call people of Hmong decent "Chinese." You might not know what Hmong is, but it's not fucking Chinese. I let it slide a bunch of times, and then I joked about it, kinda correcting it in an indirect and lighthearted way. I guess that is how my Fe manifests usually - to keep the peace or smooth out my true feelings. I have 1 in my tritype though, and that is strongly associated with "wrong vs right" and can be rather outspoken. The 4 and 6 in me can also be rebellious. I think typing can get REEEEALLY complicated, especially for people who have a lot of ambiguity, like rebellious INFJs. Also, it doesn't help if you've been through trauma (like manipulative or abusive relationships), cuz that can really change how you access your feelings and also how reactive/assertive you can be.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    By this description, I would at times be INTJ then. There are times when I just have to speak up, or simply do not care. It depends on my relationship with the person/people involved and what the repercussions might be. It also depends on my anxiety and energy levels. I sometimes forego speaking up if I feel like I just don't have it in me. I can be an asshole sometimes, and later think to myself "why the fuck did you say that outright like that?" But I'm not always like that. I have a friend at work who constantly call people of Hmong decent "Chinese." You might not know what Hmong is, but it's not fucking Chinese. I let it slide a bunch of times, and then I joked about it, kinda correcting it in an indirect and lighthearted way. I guess that is how my Fe manifests usually - to keep the peace or smooth out my true feelings. I have 1 in my tritype though, and that is strongly associated with "wrong vs right" and can be rather outspoken. The 4 and 6 in me can also be rebellious. I think typing can get REEEEALLY complicated, especially for people who have a lot of ambiguity, like rebellious INFJs. Also, it doesn't help if you've been through trauma (like manipulative or abusive relationships), cuz that can really change how you access your feelings and also how reactive/assertive you can be.
    I agree that an abusive experience can mess with your perceptions of yourself and certainly the type I experienced did. There is also the socialisation aspect, as I mentioned. I was taught to stifle my instincts because they are basically rude. In my head I don't suffer fools but I have learned that in reality sometimes I have to. I used to think I must be INFJ because I want to 'fix' people but actually all I just want to do is tell them the facts so that they won't be so ignorant. That is my version of fixing them. It's not that I actually care about them, I just can't stand people being ignorant and even worse if they are ignorant but think they know something. I have zero tolerance for magical thinking.
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  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    I used to think I must be INFJ because I want to 'fix' people but actually all I just want to do is tell them the facts so that they won't be so ignorant. That is my version of fixing them. It's not that I actually care about them, I just can't stand people being ignorant and even worse if they are ignorant but think they know something. I have zero tolerance for magical thinking.
    Yes, very INTJ, if I'm not mistaken

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