[NT] Friendships with NTs

[Totenkindly]

The F thing seems to expect a steady amount of maintenance to be involved in the friendship. At least, I see SFs especially having a tangible set of criteria that have to be met in order to prove that the relationship can be labeled as intimate or friendship or a marriage or whatever... (i.e., talk so many times a week, or certain types of life events must be related to the other person if they're in the inner circle, or whatnot).

I relate a great deal to DTS's comments. I actually still tend to think a bit even about people who I didn't overly connect with, just because I'd like to feel a rapport with everyone; but there is just this assumption that, if we talked deeply in the past and/or clicked together, and nothing changed or no one was notified of something changing, then things are still the same as before, and the connection still exists... regardless of the time or distance involved.

 

[digesthisickness]

hmm. apparently, we're extremely low maintenance but that gets misconstrued as high maintenance.

 

[The Ü™]

I would think the desire for friendship is a Feeling characteristic.

As a Thinker, I find friendship highly illogical.

 

[digesthisickness]

I would think the desire for friendship is a Feeling characteristic.

As a Thinker, I find friendship highly illogical.

ha! you aren't either/or. you're a crazy thing called 'human' which makes you both just to different degrees.

 

[cafe]

I would think the desire for friendship is a Feeling characteristic.

As a Thinker, I find friendship highly illogical.

I think even for a Thinker you're a bit of an anomaly.

 

[Totenkindly]

ha! you aren't either/or. you're a crazy thing called 'human' which makes you both just to different degrees.

Actually, I've been wondering if he's just another AI 'bot and isn't either at all.

 

[themadness]

Perhaps something peculiar to NTs, or just me, is that friendship is not devalued in time or place. I do not expect someone to apologise for not staying in contact with me, nor do I expect to apologise to them. If someone stops contacting me then I simply assume they have something else to occupy their time. Friendship does not devalue with time. In other words, even when I really value a friend, I may still not bother contacting them for a long time, the friendship stands irrespective of the frequency of contact.

Raises hand - guilty as charged. However, in the context of society this sort of behaviour (only contacting them every once in a while) is seen as you are no longer interested in keeping said friendship - which often (speaking from my own experience) is not the case.

The F thing seems to expect a steady amount of maintenance to be involved in the friendship. At least, I see SFs especially having a tangible set of criteria that have to be met in order to prove that the relationship can be labeled as intimate or friendship or a marriage or whatever... (i.e., talk so many times a week, or certain types of life events must be related to the other person if they're in the inner circle, or whatnot).

I cannot do this sort of communication because it really feels meaningless for me. A big component of said tangible criteria which is small talk, which I can engage in (if somewhat rudimentary), but otherwise cannot stand.

This uncompromising stuff I'm hearing is very scary. Is there no middle ground? I predict some serious game playing in the future if I'm always the one compromising. Does this not strike you all as unequal? What kind of meaningful relationship is that?

I don't know about this game playing business. I think most INTP/J's hate that sort of crap in any relationship and I find it highly doubtful that we would be so hypocritical to put you through that. I think that we are mostly fairly easy going, unless you annoy us - then you will here about it.

 

[Usehername]

A questions for you: How do I go about a friendship with an NT?

Y'all are notoriously difficult to read and sometimes I can't tell whether I should proceed or not. I wrote in the ENFJ thread about how I had a blossoming friendship with an INTJ but then he left and our communications switched formats from face-to-face to emails. Because I wasn't getting any real-time input, it kinda petered out. I didn't want to be annoying and I didn't know if my persistence was welcomed.

What kind of feedback can I expect from an NT to know that you want to be friends? I'm going to be honest about this, I'm an NF with lots of Fe and I strongly believe in the fine art of COMPROMISE. If I give a little, you've got to give a little. How can I have a mutually satisfying friendship with an NT without a bunch of hurt feelings (on both sides) and miscommunications?

Thanks!

I'm going to reply without having read a single response so that you can get my most pure thoughts.

When I was reading it in the other thread, I was thinking "he went out for coffee with you?! He OBVIOUSLY enjoys your personality, why did you stop emailing him?"

I don't know why he's not emailing back. Maybe it's not his format. I don't even know how to deal with that myself; I have this INTJ guy I am crushing on and I don't know how to read him without being in his presence. Emailing is difficult.

But my most pure advice is that
a) I promise that he likes you and I would be very surprised if he was annoyed by your contact (unless it was superficial talk ONLY, then he would be thinking about your past conversations and wondering if he saw more depth where there was none... just email substance next time and you'll be fine).
b) You should just be upfront with him; tell him you loved his ideas and mind and want to continue helping each other grow your minds... or something.

Don't give up if you're still thinking about him.

Clear. Direct. Substance. Keep those in mind, you'll do great.

 

[cafe]

i'm replying to this because i'm friends with nocturne and we're both NTs, so i thought that since he could have been talking about me as i read that (it sounded perfectly sensible and correct), that it may help if i speak up.

the last time we spoke was about a month ago, i'd guess. and, before that, two, three, maybe more months passed (see? i'm not even sure!). yet, because we clicked so easily, without trying, and talked long enough to eventually get to where we were comfortable (trusted one another) with our feelings about things when we first started talking about a year (or two?) ago, i see him as just as close a friend as he was in the beginning.

if i were to speak to him today (hey, nocturne! *wave*), i'd speak just as freely, personally, openly, comfortably, and easily as i did when we first got to know one another. i'd assume he was the same person, and the only difference would be updated news about what he's up to these days. in other words, we'd pick right up where we left off as if we'd spoken the day before, and with the same ease.

sure, if it's been quite a while, and i found out there was a huge change in his circumstances, then i'd ask questions that would pertain to his growth as a person, how it effected him, how he's doing, etc., but he'd still be the same basic person, and that's all i need to know to value his friendship and consider him a good one. close enough, even if a year passed, that if my heart was broken, and i saw him online, i wouldn't hesitate to ask him for advice, just talk if i needed a friend, and trust him with my feelings. it would be the same if it were reversed.

time, distance, and other things people usually measure with don't apply when it comes to relationships that we value. unless you tell us we aren't your friend anymore, we assume we are. and, this may sound bad, but if we never gave you much thought to begin with, just had a few conversations, even intense ones, but didn't take it to a personal level, we're probably not giving you much or any thought at all.

this mistake is made a lot. others thinking a connection has been made simply because we've talked to them quite a few times (many confuse intense conversation with connecting), but we can do that and then not give you another thought, or only see you as a decent person we've talked to before, but not what we'd term a valued friend.

Okay, this all sounds like perfectly normal friendship to me. But apparently, for many people, it is not. So if I want to be a good friend to people who aren't like we low-contact folk I have to, like, answer their emails and contact them and stuff. If that's the case, it means I will be expending effort and energy . . . I barely do that with people I seriously adore. I just don't think of it most of the time because I'm all lost in my head. I simply cannot have many more friends if this is what is required. I don't have the energy to remember and work myself up to calling and/or writing. This is probably not good.

 

[htb]

Don't impose a certain higher frequency of contact if it isn't warranted -- especially since that kind of thing is used to dissimulate an attempt to win a heart. I only correspond with one friend regularly, with others in short sequences if we happen to be working on a project. The rest catch up in their own time and, as posted above, it is as if no time has passed.

 

[Usehername]

I think even for a Thinker you're a bit of an anomaly.

yeah, this INTJ thinks so too.

 

[The Ü™]

I think even for a Thinker you're a bit of an anomaly.

That comes from my uncanny ability to think outside of the box.

The thing I can't understand is why people even value friendship and emotion. I never understood it. I just see it as weak. I'm not trying to shock or anything, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

 

[Totenkindly]

This is probably also going to sound odd... and I'm not even sure yet if it's valid... (it's based purely on anecdotal experience)... but I have experienced some of this confusion while talking with INxJ people online.

I am not sure what I'm expecting in the conversation, but I think I am looking for a set of cues that they don't provide, and it really stymies me.

With NP types, it's like we're casual, and we instinctively put out these cues -- maybe it's part of the P mentality, where you are constantly trying to play off the other person and react to what they do, and for your part you look for the other person's cues and in turn purposefully project your own for THEM to hook into in turn, it's part of the personality style -- but I do not get those cues from INxJ's very often. ENxJ's are a little better for me (I think due to the extraversion), but still cause some difficulty at times.

I'm not even sure how to describe the cues yet. They are more like throwaway lines or just some sort of "acknowledgment" response I expect from them as part of playing the communication game. And I just don't get the cues back that I need to know exactly how to respond or react, so sometimes I find myself wondering if the other person is still interested in conversation, or if I said something that offended them, or what.

(Right now, I just assume that everything is okay and work from there, but it still causes a bit of anxiety.)

Has any other P experienced this sort of thing in communication with J types? INTP, INFP, ENFP, ENTPs... I don't seem to have this sort of problem with the majority of them. Just much more with the NJ's and INJ's in particular.

That comes from my uncanny ability to think outside of the box.

Please.

Yes, you can think outside the box and I recognize that; but so can the rest of us. And many of us value (or have learned to value) relationships.

Can you think outside your own box?

The thing I can't understand is why people even value friendship and emotion. I never understood it. I just see it as weak. I'm not trying to shock or anything, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

Well, you're not really putting life into a perspective for us, you're just describing your current stage of life. Many of us have already been where you're standing right now and have moved past it, that's all. So we understand why emotions and friendship might be considered "weak"... and then we realized we were wrong or just needed to develop a more nuanced perspective.

So don't give up on it yet. Just leave an opening to keep reevaluating that one.

 

[Usehername]

I also don't nkow what some people are saying re: the "value" aspect of the INTJ.

Surely, to some degree, (or maybe universally) that is true. However, she's already "in". From what proteanmix described, he really genuinely was fascinated by her. Which, for an INTJ, is what does it. He values her mind and her ideas and her talents which he does not share... she's already "in".

I think the issue is a mix of the INTJ not knowing what to do here. He doesn't want a superficial relationship, that I can guarantee you. Does he use hte internet often? Does he know how to have an electronic relationship? Is he aware of the fact taht you want to stay friends with him, or is he just thinking that you're a "people person" and he's nothing special to you?

Just lay it all out there,all your questions and uncertainties about his "social behavior". volunteer the fact that you like his mind, and he'll make it clear from there about his friendship.

You could also just tell him "you are my friend... I want you to work on being a better friend, b/c right now you're hovering below mediocrity". If you're explicit he'll understand.

 

[cafe]

That comes from my uncanny ability to think outside of the box.

The thing I can't understand is why people even value friendship and emotion. I never understood it. I just see it as weak. I'm not trying to shock or anything, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

What you haven't realized yet, for whatever reason, is that you are weak. All humans are. We are, physically, nearly defenseless. We rely on our opposable thumbs, our ability to make and use tools, and our social groups in order to survive. We are nearly helpless for years after birth and may need to rely on others of our species at various times throughout our lives, certainly at the end most of us do.

I highly doubt that you have no reliance on other human beings. The emotions/relationships are the oil that makes living as a social species possible. Our bodies even make and respond to chemicals from our interactions with one another. I'm sure you have heard of studies that indicate the health benefits of certain relationships, married men-even unhappily married ones, for instance, live longer and are generally healthier than single men (women have to be in happy marriages to gain health benefits, unfortunately). People who have pets also gain health benefits from those relationships. Babies, even if fed properly and otherwise cared for, will have poor health and possible brain damage if they are not touched often enough.

It may not seem logical, but it is the reality of the situation.

 

[Kyrielle]

I'm not even sure how to describe the cues yet. They are more like throwaway lines or just some sort of "acknowledgment" response I expect from them as part of playing the communication game. And I just don't get the cues back that I need to know exactly how to respond or react, so sometimes I find myself wondering if the other person is still interested in conversation, or if I said something that offended them, or what.

I think what you're talking about is just a continuation of a topic? Like you'll put an idea out there, an INJ will respond, then you'll respond, and all of the sudden, that's it. They don't say anymore on the idea and you're not sure if you said something wrong or right.

If that's the case, I'm really guilty of that. I don't say anymore, because I said basically everything I wanted to say on the topic. Usually I'll say more, but otherwise, I've shown someone my opinion and perspective, and while I might think more on it after the conversation has ended, it's not likely that I'll say anything else unless they ask me what else I think or provide some sort of input I had yet to consider.

But most of the time, I think it's the INJ tendency to make a call on something and stick to it.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think what you're talking about is just a continuation of a topic? Like you'll put an idea out there, an INJ will respond, then you'll respond, and all of the sudden, that's it. They don't say anymore on the idea and you're not sure if you said something wrong or right.

I guess it could be something like that, I think that's part of it.

I have also had exchanges where I put a few "leading" sentences in my comments, that either are actual questions to be answered or purposeful ambiguities that a P will normally pick up on and play out... but the J doesn't "bite at" them? So I get back a response that really focuses on providing an answer to one part of my comments, and ignores everything else.

(Maybe a good metaphor would be like trying to small-talk with someone who just ends up shutting down the conversation because they don't feed you open-ended lines that you can respond to, everything is closed off? Maybe that actually IS the most probable thing going on, with the J need for closure... while the P tries to keep things open and going.)

Or sometimes it's simply that I am expecting something a little less clinical sounding or cut-and-dried, but the response is so cut-and-dried that it feels like I am being shut out and thus the friendship might even be in question...

With those, having talked to the INxJ's about it, I just tell myself to trust what they told me -- "Yes, we're friends, I think you're great!" -- and not gauge what is going on by the manner in which they have replied.

(Again, there is my "P" thing trying to flex and "read" them through their current response, which feels more negative... because for a P, everything can change and so we automatically are gauging things as they go... and instead I have to simply rely on past conversation and trust them.)

 

[Brendan]

That comes from my uncanny ability to think outside of the box.

The thing I can't understand is why people even value friendship and emotion. I never understood it. I just see it as weak. I'm not trying to shock or anything, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

Which is weaker? Foresaking friendship for fear of being weak or taking the risks associated with friendship?

 

[Usehername]

Please.

Yes, you can think outside the box and I recognize that; but so can the rest of us. And many of us value (or have learned to value) relationships.

Can you think outside your own box?



Well, you're not really putting life into a perspective for us, you're just describing your current stage of life. Many of us have already been where you're standing right now and have moved past it, that's all. So we understand why emotions and friendship might be considered "weak"... and then we realized we were wrong or just needed to develop a more nuanced perspective.

So don't give up on it yet. Just leave an opening to keep reevaluating that one.

Yeah--of course, this is what the NTs (and specifically INTs) who disagree when they look at the comments on not understanding the point of friends, etc. are all thinking.


"Been there, done that, grown." That's how to put it!

 

[Cerpin_Taxt]

In reply to Uberfuhrer's comments. I dont think friendship is weak, but i can relate to you in so far as i find relationship's with other's to be very draining, and they generally -- for me -- lack any sembelence of fufillment.

I dont think feeler's need relationship's more then thinker's as such; however, they probably do need more relationship's then thinker's.