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[NT] INTJs (or NTs) and decision-making

sophiedoph

New member
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
94
MBTI Type
INFJ
Let me first start out by saying that when I come to a decision/opinion, it is after a long period of time--thinking, researching, pondering, observing. The decisions I come to are well thought out, and reasoned. I am open to new information, and will adjust my opinion as it seems merited by me, but I do not speak as though I've concluded anything until I have.

My husband is an INTJ and spews opinions and decisions like a box of varied fruit fruit popsicles. One day he decides we should retake the Bar exams and move to NC. We look at houses online and rebudget to save for taking the exams. The next day, no, we'll stay here. Then he's decided to move to Montana (???). Oh wait--gotta take the Bar there too... nah.

He decides Obama will initiate Armegeddon. He will probably be elected, but it will be the end of the world. He will vote for McCain. Then he hears about McCain divorcing his wife after she becomes disabled in a car accident (and after she waited six years while he was in a POW camp) and feels he is disloyal, but still the best choice. Fast forward a few months... Now he loves Obama and hates McCain...

Do INTJs just think outloud in declarative phrases? How do can one tell when they are serious??
 

DigitalMethod

Content. Content?
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
970
MBTI Type
INTJ
He must feel very comfortable with you.
I say this because I think that is just his way of thinking things through. Sharing every thought he has with you, it's Te.
He must be comfortable with you though because INTJs usually only are that open to that type of people in their lives (or so I am).
I hate to look stupid, which I know some of the thoughts I have will be stupid, but if I am comfortable with the person I wouldn't care.

Yes they think out loud, Te.
You can tell when they are serious when they are done talking about it. How can you tell when they are done? I don't know... I guess they might tell you.

I would suggest asking your husband if that is how he makes decisions. By a series of outward statements and thoughts. If he acknowledges that it's true. Then ask him when he makes his final decision to make sure to tell you.

Just remember, if any new stuff is presented the decision might change.

I also wanted to say that INTJs (again, at least me) approach problems in this general way:
1) Understand the problem
2) Automatically apply anything Ni tells you as truth (okay truth might be harsh, maybe the words "bias assumption")
3) Realize that you might be Ni-ing to much, apply more of a scientific method sort of approach while still remembering original assumption.
4) Once you get a good solution, maybe share it with someone close. Or not, but it just feels better to share it if that option is availble.
5) If the person you share it with agrees, think about it a little more, analyze every possible outcome. Weigh the outcomes.
6) If the person you share it with disagrees, either weigh their opinion with the scientific scale against your solution, and if your solution wins, analyze every possible outcome, weigh the outcomes. If their opinion weighs more on the sci-scale then restart at number 3 above.

This is all sort of rough though I understand, and I might not have explained it perfectly... :blush:

You've given good examples of what Ni and Te are.
I think "spews opinions and decisions like a box of varied fruit fruit popsicles" is a great analogy of both.
 

Enyo

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
443
MBTI Type
xNTJ
Think of it this way...

At least he isn't set in his ways. He considers new information and restructures his decisions from there.

I do it, too, but really and truly, the biggest indicator of a decision that I will make that can effect my family is this: How does my husband feel about it?
 

sophiedoph

New member
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
94
MBTI Type
INFJ
Awww. OK, this has been really helpful!

So when I offer an alternative viewpoint, it challenges his Ni process? And when he's thinking things out (a lot of it politics, today we discussed world politics for two hours) it sounds argumentative but it's really just that he's debating viewpoints within himself, as he internalizes/thinks through my feedback?

I guess I should see it as a sign of enormous trust that he comes home from work each day and tells me about what happened, and asks for my feedback to help him gauge it?

Thanks again! That's really cool. Your "thinking process order" was very awesome!
 

sophiedoph

New member
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
94
MBTI Type
INFJ
Think of it this way...

At least he isn't set in his ways. He considers new information and restructures his decisions from there.

I do it, too, but really and truly, the biggest indicator of a decision that I will make that can effect my family is this: How does my husband feel about it?

In some ways yes and in others no. We both hate where we live. It's too expensive, etc. We've been talking FOR YEARS about moving. We talk about it virtually EVERY WEEKEND. LOL

But he never, ever acts on it. Then again, we haven't been in a position to act on it (hopefully we will be next year), so I feel like he's not actually even debating it, but he's "decided" we will stay here, yet he talks about it more like talking about winning the lottery--a nice dream, but not something he actually plans on.

Does that make sense?

Is this something where he would come to a decision when he has the means to act on it? (Rather than planning and saving for it?)
 

DigitalMethod

Content. Content?
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
970
MBTI Type
INTJ
Awww. OK, this has been really helpful!

So when I offer an alternative viewpoint, it challenges his Ni process? And when he's thinking things out (a lot of it politics, today we discussed world politics for two hours) it sounds argumentative but it's really just that he's debating viewpoints within himself, as he internalizes/thinks through my feedback?

I guess I should see it as a sign of enormous trust that he comes home from work each day and tells me about what happened, and asks for my feedback to help him gauge it?

Thanks again! That's really cool. Your "thinking process order" was very awesome!

Hm when you offer an alternative viewpoint he will probably weigh it scientifically/logically, more Te-ish. Ni is more like that initial "hunch" that you can get when addressing anything. But as scientific thinkers we (I) usually realize that hunches are bias and we try to eliminate them from important problem solving.

"It sounds argumentative but it's really just that he's debating viewpoints within himself, as he internalizes/thinks through my feedback?"
Yes, unless he gets angry.

Yes, it's a sign of trust, and affection. Basically though, he is comfortable around you. And-- he thinks your input is helpful and respects it (if he is asking for advice that is, or feedback).

INTJs main function is Ni, secondary Te.

INFJs main fuction is Ni, secondary Fe.

Ni - introverted intuition
Te - extroverted thinking
Fe - extroverted feeling
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
6,880
MBTI Type
xNFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Let me first start out by saying that when I come to a decision/opinion, it is after a long period of time--thinking, researching, pondering, observing. The decisions I come to are well thought out, and reasoned. I am open to new information, and will adjust my opinion as it seems merited by me, but I do not speak as though I've concluded anything until I have.

My husband is an INTJ and spews opinions and decisions like a box of varied fruit fruit popsicles. One day he decides we should retake the Bar exams and move to NC. We look at houses online and rebudget to save for taking the exams. The next day, no, we'll stay here. Then he's decided to move to Montana (???). Oh wait--gotta take the Bar there too... nah.

He decides Obama will initiate Armegeddon. He will probably be elected, but it will be the end of the world. He will vote for McCain. Then he hears about McCain divorcing his wife after she becomes disabled in a car accident (and after she waited six years while he was in a POW camp) and feels he is disloyal, but still the best choice. Fast forward a few months... Now he loves Obama and hates McCain...

Do INTJs just think outloud in declarative phrases? How do can one tell when they are serious??

Dude, sweet! I'm not the only one who does this!!!! :D
 

sophiedoph

New member
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
94
MBTI Type
INFJ
Hm when you offer an alternative viewpoint he will probably weigh it scientifically/logically, more Te-ish. Ni is more like that initial "hunch" that you can get when addressing anything. But as scientific thinkers we (I) usually realize that hunches are bias and we try to eliminate them from important problem solving.

"It sounds argumentative but it's really just that he's debating viewpoints within himself, as he internalizes/thinks through my feedback?"
Yes, unless he gets angry.

Yes, it's a sign of trust, and affection. Basically though, he is comfortable around you. And-- he thinks your input is helpful and respects it (if he is asking for advice that is, or feedback).

INTJs main function is Ni, secondary Te.

INFJs main fuction is Ni, secondary Fe.

Ni - introverted intuition
Te - extroverted thinking
Fe - extroverted feeling

Right--he seems to operate on Ni. Te is a far second in the order. "How do you know we will all die in 2012?"

"I just do."

"How do you know my business is a terrible idea?"

"I just do."

"How do you know this person is evil?"

"I just do. Don't question me!" LOL!

Is that normal INTJ behavior? Really, the hunches seem to rule it, the thinking is definitely next, but it's a few steps away.
 

DigitalMethod

Content. Content?
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
970
MBTI Type
INTJ
In some ways yes and in others no. We both hate where we live. It's too expensive, etc. We've been talking FOR YEARS about moving. We talk about it virtually EVERY WEEKEND. LOL

But he never, ever acts on it. Then again, we haven't been in a position to act on it (hopefully we will be next year), so I feel like he's not actually even debating it, but he's "decided" we will stay here, yet he talks about it more like talking about winning the lottery--a nice dream, but not something he actually plans on.

Does that make sense?

Is this something where he would come to a decision when he has the means to act on it? (Rather than planning and saving for it?)

He's probably forming a plan, for the future. But he isn't saving for it? That's odd, you should bring that up.

You should just state "Look, you and I both know it's inevitable that we are going to move, so what's the plan?"

INTJs are usually future thinkers, he probably already has a plan of some degree.

Of course maybe he doesn't want to move as much as you think? That may be one reason.

I want to stress though that just because something I say sounds right doesn't mean it's right. I'm wrong a lot of times. And I'm not an expert on functions (Ni, Te, Fe, etc).
 

Enyo

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
443
MBTI Type
xNTJ
In some ways yes and in others no. We both hate where we live. It's too expensive, etc. We've been talking FOR YEARS about moving. We talk about it virtually EVERY WEEKEND. LOL

But he never, ever acts on it. Then again, we haven't been in a position to act on it (hopefully we will be next year), so I feel like he's not actually even debating it, but he's "decided" we will stay here, yet he talks about it more like talking about winning the lottery--a nice dream, but not something he actually plans on.

Does that make sense?

Is this something where he would come to a decision when he has the means to act on it? (Rather than planning and saving for it?)

You know, my husband (who is not an INTJ) doesn't like change. At all. As much as I defer to him over most things, sometimes I have to put my foot down and insist on something. If I'd left it entirely up to him, we'd still be living in an apartment instead of our house. We wouldn't have our dogs (which are the babies). We wouldn't have a new car. We wouldn't be trying for a baby now. He also spent years talking about getting a Cisco cert.

Funny thing is, the only big change that he's ever experienced that he *didn't* panic, procrastinate, or hem-and-haw over was marrying me.

If I want something to happen and I feel that I've given him sufficient time to waffle over it (like he waffled over my car), I give him a deadline to make a decision or do something that he wants to do.

I gave him until close of business that day to make a decision about a car after months of talking about it.

I gave him six months to complete the certification that he'd been thinking about getting for years.

And you know what? He did it. He made the decision and completed the certification without any push back.

If you really want to move, tell him you want to move. But don't leave it there. Tell him that you need a decision from him regarding where you actually want to go. Just make sure that you make it clear where *you'd* like to go at the same time, so it's not such an open-ended question. Give him a deadline.

And if he doesn't meet that deadline, then be prepared to unilaterally make a decision. Just make sure that he knows that this is the penalty for indecision. ;)

*Caveat: This works for us. I'm not an expert on Fe, Fi, or feet, for that matter. YMMV.
 

DigitalMethod

Content. Content?
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
970
MBTI Type
INTJ
Right--he seems to operate on Ni. Te is a far second in the order. "How do you know we will all die in 2012?"

"I just do."

"How do you know my business is a terrible idea?"

"I just do."

"How do you know this person is evil?"

"I just do. Don't question me!" LOL!

Is that normal INTJ behavior? Really, the hunches seem to rule it, the thinking is definitely next, but it's a few steps away.

INTJs come in all types of percentages.
Look at my signature.
What's his percentages?

If he told you your business is a terrible idea (something you care for) then that is a little mean... he must really see something logically wrong with it.
 

sophiedoph

New member
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
94
MBTI Type
INFJ
Without going into the wellbeing of the business (which MY N says is doing very well!), he won't acknowledge the numbers. He won't look at them. He won't look at the products or the quality, the stores that sell, or anything. He just has decided it won't work and is stupid.

I think it's because he doesn't want me to leave law? (Maybe misery loves company? LOL)

It seems to me an emotional response--a knee-jerk reaction.

And yet at the same time he now is trying to buy for my birthday a $$$ piece of equipment that would benefit the business. ???? Yesterday he said he would get it for me but I had to agree not to use it professionally. Today he said he wanted to get it for me since I wanted to sell the products...

He seems to vacillate so much on it. This makes no sense to me?
 

substitute

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Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
I don't know, he doesn't sound like any INTJ I've ever known... but very much like most P's :huh:
 

sophiedoph

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Aug 29, 2008
Messages
94
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INFJ
LOL! I'm about to make him take that test DM has on his sig. He's veeeerrrry J IIRC. He's more organized than I am. :blush:
 

DigitalMethod

Content. Content?
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
970
MBTI Type
INTJ
INTJ that can't make decisions. Definitely possible. I'm this way with very important things, and when I'm stressed.

If he is being hypocritical point it out to him in a... soft manner. Personally, I would want to know if I was being hypocritical, but if someone approached me in an accusatory nature I might take it offensively.

Maybe something like,
"So, you think the business will fail?"
"Yes."
"And you want to get me equipment to support the business?"
"Ye... erm."

Let him figure it out, just guide him there.

Of course he might just say "Well I want to make you happy because I love you."
 

substitute

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Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
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ENTP
LOL! I'm about to make him take that test DM has on his sig. He's veeeerrrry J IIRC. He's more organized than I am. :blush:

I'm very organized. But I'm also very P.
My parents are J's and they INFURIATE me on a regular basis with their lack of efficiency and organization. But they're definitely J's.

So, that's no proof really :)
 

sophiedoph

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Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
94
MBTI Type
INFJ
Heh! OK--here are his results--you are right! INTP! So funny--two other times he tested INTJ but he hadn't taken this one.

 

sophiedoph

New member
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
94
MBTI Type
INFJ
You know, my husband (who is not an INTJ) doesn't like change. At all. As much as I defer to him over most things, sometimes I have to put my foot down and insist on something. If I'd left it entirely up to him, we'd still be living in an apartment instead of our house. We wouldn't have our dogs (which are the babies). We wouldn't have a new car. We wouldn't be trying for a baby now. He also spent years talking about getting a Cisco cert.

Funny thing is, the only big change that he's ever experienced that he *didn't* panic, procrastinate, or hem-and-haw over was marrying me.

If I want something to happen and I feel that I've given him sufficient time to waffle over it (like he waffled over my car), I give him a deadline to make a decision or do something that he wants to do.

I gave him until close of business that day to make a decision about a car after months of talking about it.

I gave him six months to complete the certification that he'd been thinking about getting for years.

And you know what? He did it. He made the decision and completed the certification without any push back.

If you really want to move, tell him you want to move. But don't leave it there. Tell him that you need a decision from him regarding where you actually want to go. Just make sure that you make it clear where *you'd* like to go at the same time, so it's not such an open-ended question. Give him a deadline.

And if he doesn't meet that deadline, then be prepared to unilaterally make a decision. Just make sure that he knows that this is the penalty for indecision. ;)

*Caveat: This works for us. I'm not an expert on Fe, Fi, or feet, for that matter. YMMV.

Thank you for this! It really is what I needed to hear. My childhood family was/is very independent--make your own choices, we'll support you. And we do make our own decisions, we are all Js. It's so outside of my nature to force someone to come to a conclusion, I just automatically think they will. :)

The only decision he came to, also, that didn't require hem-hawing was marrying me. Actually he said he knew within 2 weeks of meeting me that he wanted to marry me. Other than that, he won't change a job he has hated for five years. He won't move from a location he hates. I think you are right, they just hate change. (Although he is spontaneous with how he spends his days.)

The deadline idea is great. I shall give it a try! Thanks again!
 

substitute

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Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
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ENTP
I was raised, or rather not raised, by criminally negligent parents so I also had to become very independent and make my own decisions.

But that's just the point. I want to make MY OWN decision, which means making it in my own time, when I'm ready and when *I* feel that I have all the info I need. Just because there's a J with a desperate need for closure snapping at my heels doesn't help me make the decision, it just puts my back up and in fact prolongs the process, cos whilst I was ruminating on the facts in order to make the decision, now I'm stressed and feeling hassled by them and having to play emotional tennis, all very tiring. If they just left me alone to do my research and bounce ideas off people, they'd find when the time comes, I'd make just as snappy a decision as any J.
 

sophiedoph

New member
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
94
MBTI Type
INFJ
But does it take you years and years and years? When you REALLY REALLY hate the way things are?
 
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