[INTJ] Being friends (or more) with an INTJ

[logistician]

I've started seeing this INTJ guy and I'm at the stage where I'm unsure if he's interested in a relationship or even a friendship. Just for background, we've only been out 3-4 times in the past 2 months or so.. so our outings are fairly infrequent. I get the feeling that he needs a LOT of space and independence, which is fine with me for now although if we do get closer, I'd ideally like it to go out weekly or fortnightly.

On our first date, it was apparent that we weren't exactly clicking. He was quiet and seemed rather uninterested. I thought he would just end the date early but surprisingly we hung out for a couple of hours. He said he'd be up to go out again but as friends for now (was I just friend-zoned? haha). By the way, I'm an ISTJ and I've read that ISTJ and INTJs have difficulty making a connection or something.

We had a second outing which went better than the first in that he seemed to open up just a tiny bit more. I definitely saw more personality come through. The only thing that drove me nuts was him being indecisive about what he wanted to do (I had made some suggestions but he didn't like any of them), and he kept on looking at and playing with his phone. I thought Js were supposed to be decisive and like to plan things in advance?
Our most recent outing I did all the planning, initiating etc. because I didn't like what happened the last time, and he seemed fine with it. I'm not sure why, but it has been a consistent pattern throughout that our outings always start out quiet and awkward but towards the end, there's free flow of conversation, laughter and things to talk about. This was probably the best outing so far. I've read that INTJs like to talk about intellectual/theoretical/philosophical stuff but he hasn't tried to discuss any of that with me. He probably suspects that I would either be uninterested or would not understand. I consider myself fairly intelligent but yes, as an ISTJ it's true that theoretical and philosophical discussions are unlikely to interest me.

Although I've enjoyed our outings/dates, I am unsure of where things stand between us. We haven't had any serious talks, but then that's probably because neither of us are "feeling" types so we don't find it easy to talk about feelings and stuff. I do get the impression that he enjoys our outings and likes spending time with me, but the constant phone-checking bugs me. It makes me feel like he is bored. I do know that he's the very introverted/shy type. I wonder if he checks his phone as a security blanket, because he has nothing to say and the silence makes him uncomfortable so he resorts to his phone. I find that I'm doing a lot of the initiating, which I don't really mind, but I need some level of reciprocity. I'm fairly resigned to the fact that I'll be the one asking him out. He does take some initiative within the date though, like suggest that we eat somewhere or do something that we didn't plan. He also picks me up and drop me off at home when we go out, even though I didn't ask or suggest that he do so. I text him sometimes to see how he's doing (not much - like once or twice a week) and he always replies but with very clipped responses.

I guess my big question is : how much of this is "he's just an INTJ" versus "he's just not into you"?

If an INTJ is interested, will he take initiative? Can he be open about feelings and stuff or will I have to ask him point-blank? How does an INTJ express interest or affection?

Help.. Sorry I'm totally clueless when dealing with INTJs.

 

[mimikry01]

Hahaha I can see myself so much in your description

I will try to help you understanding by telling you what I think in such situations (I'm a female INTJ), ok?

1. Lot of space and independance and time: Incredibly important. I can't stand guys who are texting you all the time or always want to meet, so you're right to let him his personal space. In my case, when you just get to know each other, every 2/3 weeks an outing is a good interval.

2. You said "He said he'd be up to go out again but as friends for now (was I just friend-zoned? haha)." Not necessarily. For me it's important first to get to know each other on an intellectual level. F.e. I would have no problems to be friends with somebody for two years and then starting a relationship. Mostly we INTJs aren't the ones who like a typical date. We just want to meet, talk and slowly get to know each other.

3. You said "I thought Js were supposed to be decisive and like to plan things in advance?" That's true. As I sad in 2.: We don't like typical dates, we sometimes fail at social situations like this one. I'm very sure he just doesn't have a plan of what to do when he meets with a girl. Other possibilty is that he wants to see what you have in mind of doing together so he can judge you better (I'm a fan of doing this, letting others don't know what I think about their ideas ).

4. To the philosophical discussions you said "He probably suspects that I would either be uninterested or would not understand." That could be right. Before telling others how we think we need to find some hints if the other one is even able to understand us. Don't wait him to start a discussion, you have to. I bet he will start talking. You need to challenge him. Btw another tip: When you don't like philosophical themes don't talk about them. We INTJs notice very very fast if somebody is just talking about a topic because we want to hear it or if he is really passionate about it. As you being an ISTJ (my brother is one, so I have a little experience ) I would advice you to talk about an abstract topic which nevertheless has a clear connection to reality. F.e. I can talk very good about psychological things with my brother. Where I more see the theory and the big picture he gives me inpute of examples in the past, where my theory fits to. Try to connect your facts and experiences with his ideas.

5. You said "I wonder if he checks his phone as a security blanket". That could be very well. Try starting a deeper discussion. If he feels challenged you will be suprised how unimportant his phone becomes.

6. Be patient. It takes really a lot till an INTJ becomes open about his feelings. Before doing that he needs to be sure that you understand each other on an intellectual level. Asking him out will not work. Before he starts talking open he wants to know you better and for that you have to tell something about your points of view.

So I hope my English is comprehensible (I'm not a native speaker ) and my answer helped you a little bit. If there are questions just ask.

 

[logistician]

Wow, thanks for such a complete response.

1. Wow, I never realised INTJs needed so much personal space as that.

2. Ah ok, I do like a typical date, as in one that's planned beforehand haha.

6. Really? Asking him out will not work? So should I take a step back and wait for him to initiate then? I kinda get the feeling he's not the initiating type. Won't this seem like some kind of test/game? I'm not interested in playing "games".

As for your texting, how long do you take to respond to texts? I normally expect a reply within a few hours or at most by the end of the next day.

 

[chubber]

If he is young, and I mean young in the sense of early 20s. He probably doesn't know what he is doing. If you are going to be pushy and he is unsure then, I am saying he isn't interested. This whole, being shy and hiding is BS. He probably trying to convince himself that he should like you, when he doesn't.

INTJs like direct questions and will take their time to answer. But at least they know exactly what is expected of them. Instead of trying to figure out in their head of what is going on. So I would say, ask him directly and he can give a yes/no answer. Give him time. Be ready for the answer. This tip toeing, being polite and small talk isn't INTJ. It is or it isn't, when it is a direct question.

 

[mimikry01]

No problem, it's pretty cool when it helps you.

1. Of course it's different from person to person. Maybe in this regard I am a little bit more "extreme" than others, I don't know. It's just the point that it could be that he also need that much time. So if he doesn't show interest in seeing you every weekend f.e., it doesn't mean that he doesn't like you. So don't think too much about if that is a sign of disinterest. I don't think so because typically, when we don't have any interest in another person, we find our ways to never have to see them again

6. There's a little trick: You should initate but not with asking him out. See: I got a lot of thoughts in my mind (I bet he too) but I share it only with those from who I think they are able to understand. When somebody is asking me things all the time I'm not able to make out what his attitude is (if he probably understand my attitudes). When people I don't really know ask me questions I usually don't say what's really on my mind. As I said I think it would be a good approach to start talking about an interesting topic. For example if somebody would come to me and say: "Hey I heard about a really interesting topic, MBTI types. I read a lot about it and it's so helpful for understanding others" I would gleam with pleasure. Try it that way. Ah and INTJs aren't interested in playing games be sure to that. We sometimes like to "test" others to check their attitudes etc. but we are never ones who play with other people. And we would be angry if the other one would do it too.

About texting: I think that doesn't depend on the MBTI. I tend to answer directly when I have the time to but it also depends on the person I'm texting with. However guys often take longer to answer.

 

[logistician]

If he is young, and I mean young in the sense of early 20s. He probably doesn't know what he is doing. If you are going to be pushy and he is unsure then, I am saying he isn't interested. This whole, being shy and hiding is BS. He probably trying to convince himself that he should like you, when he doesn't.

INTJs like direct questions and will take their time to answer. But at least they know exactly what is expected of them. Instead of trying to figure out in their head of what is going on. So I would say, ask him directly and he can give a yes/no answer. Give him time. Be ready for the answer. This tip toeing, being polite and small talk isn't INTJ. It is or it isn't, when it is a direct question.

I'm curious as to why an INTJ would try to convince themselves that they should like someone, when they don't? I thought they are really straightforward and direct, and they quickly decided whether they like or dislike you?

I like asking direct questions as well but I'm not sure if he will feel like I'm putting him on the spot. Also, should such questions be done through text or in person. On one hand, text gives him time to think and respond but I feel like it's really impersonal. On the other hand, doing it in person will probably make him uncomfortable and stressed, and he doesn't have time to think.

 

[ceecee]

I'm curious as to why an INTJ would try to convince themselves that they should like someone, when they don't? I thought they are really straightforward and direct, and they quickly decided whether they like or dislike you?

Not when it comes to relationships or one on one matters. At all. It's always been a weak spot for me - it still is at times. Do you have to have an answer right this second? Because if you ask him directly and he looks like a deer in the headlights, you can say - take your time. DO NOT text this question and questions like it to anyone. Ever.

 

[Coriolis]

6. Really? Asking him out will not work? So should I take a step back and wait for him to initiate then? I kinda get the feeling he's not the initiating type. Won't this seem like some kind of test/game? I'm not interested in playing "games".

I disagree with this. It is fine, perhaps even necessary for you to be the one to ask him out. Just be very judicious in what you invite him to do. Things that reek of "typical date" should be avoided, at least until you know each other much better and are sure he is ready for that. Stick with things that you might do with just a friend, and capitalize on any interests you have learned that he has. Visit a museum, planetarium, or botanical garden. See a movie or go to a local cultural festival. Go hiking/cycling. See if enjoying time spent in each other's company leads to enjoying each other. If so, he may be ready for more. If not, at least you've had a good time together and can move on better for the experience.

 

[logistician]

Not when it comes to relationships or one on one matters. At all. It's always been a weak spot for me - it still is at times. Do you have to have an answer right this second? Because if you ask him directly and he looks like a deer in the headlights, you can say - take your time. DO NOT text this question and questions like it to anyone. Ever.

Oh, that's very interesting to know, thanks.

No, I don't need an answer at this moment. I'll probably just take a step back and see where things go.

And I agree about texting such serious questions. Too impersonal and you can't even like read their body language and stuff.

 

[logistician]

I disagree with this. It is fine, perhaps even necessary for you to be the one to ask him out. Just be very judicious in what you invite him to do. Things that reek of "typical date" should be avoided, at least until you know each other much better and are sure he is ready for that. Stick with things that you might do with just a friend, and capitalize on any interests you have learned that he has. Visit a museum, planetarium, or botanical garden. See a movie or go to a local cultural festival. Go hiking/cycling. See if enjoying time spent in each other's company leads to enjoying each other. If so, he may be ready for more. If not, at least you've had a good time together and can move on better for the experience.

Hmm, so what reeks of typical date? Honestly, stuff that I would want to do on a date (e.g. movie, dinner, walk in the park) I would totally do with a friend as well.

 

[Coriolis]

Hmm, so what reeks of typical date? Honestly, stuff that I would want to do on a date (e.g. movie, dinner, walk in the park) I would totally do with a friend as well.

Anything with romantic/intimate overtones: dinner at nice restaurant, meeting family, anything at your/his apartment, anything fancy/expensive. Of course this will vary from person to person, but anything involving meeting in a public place for content-ful activity should be fair game, at least if it's something he is interested in doing.

 

[chubber]

I'm curious as to why an INTJ would try to convince themselves that they should like someone, when they don't? I thought they are really straightforward and direct, and they quickly decided whether they like or dislike you?

I like asking direct questions as well but I'm not sure if he will feel like I'm putting him on the spot. Also, should such questions be done through text or in person. On one hand, text gives him time to think and respond but I feel like it's really impersonal. On the other hand, doing it in person will probably make him uncomfortable and stressed, and he doesn't have time to think.

Impersonal vs doing it in person, those are all society's values, and something that an SJ could implement easily. This would cause for greater confusion as to why the INTJ would wonder why he should like you. Because they wouldn't bother with it, but you place value on it, that's where the confusion comes from. You value things that he wouldn't. If you are ok with him being like that, then by all means.

Look, you had the proverbial balls to ask him out, have them ready for when he is going to kick in your proverbial balls.

Another question you should ask yourself is. Do you like him when he is sad or in the grip of fear? If you do, then you are seeing his ESFP shadow. (it would mean that you would only then get along with him) And if you only like that side of him... I'm afraid that this will be a toxic relationship because you will always want to see that side of him so that you can feel better about yourself.

Am I reaching here?

oh well. Can you be friends? Yes I think so, can you two be together for long periods of time without the one turning the other into a sad person so that they can gain control or feel comfortable around that person? You know... the ISTJ's shadow is the ENFP... (that implies a good match for the INTJ, but only when in shadow... not a good thing).

 

[logistician]

Impersonal vs doing it in person, those are all society's values, and something that an SJ could implement easily. This would cause for greater confusion as to why the INTJ would wonder why he should like you. Because they wouldn't bother with it, but you place value on it, that's where the confusion comes from. You value things that he wouldn't. If you are ok with him being like that, then by all means.

Look, you had the proverbial balls to ask him out, have them ready for when he is going to kick in your proverbial balls.

Another question you should ask yourself is. Do you like him when he is sad or in the grip of fear? If you do, then you are seeing his ESFP shadow. (it would mean that you would only then get along with him) And if you only like that side of him... I'm afraid that this will be a toxic relationship because you will always want to see that side of him so that you can feel better about yourself.

Am I reaching here?

oh well. Can you be friends? Yes I think so, can you two be together for long periods of time without the one turning the other into a sad person so that they can gain control or feel comfortable around that person? You know... the ISTJ's shadow is the ENFP... (that implies a good match for the INTJ, but only when in shadow... not a good thing).

I think you're reaching a little. I mean...he doesn't know that I place value on personal communication as opposed to text, so why would there be confusion on his part as to whether he likes me or not?

I haven't seen him sad or fearful. I don't know where you're coming from regarding this issue. I don't quite understand the concept of a "shadow". But no, I'm not particularly attracted if he's depressed or scared. And I really don't quite get what you mean by one person turning the other sad and stuff. Like, for real??

 

[evilrubberduckie]

I dont know, INTJ's flock to me like Moths on a flame, and I do all the things Stereotypical INTJ's WOULDN'T like.

I make them do things they have never done.
I force them out of "the bubble."
I have them think irrationally every once in a while.
I draw attention to myself, and ergo them also.

So I dont know, I'd say just be yourself?

Also. Be intelligent. I mean, more then usual. Ask them educational based questions you would hear in a seminar. Also ask a lot of "Why?" and thier opinions on things that may seem important to them. That's what I do.

Maybe that's why they are drawn to me?

IDK. Im more 7 then I am ENTP, sooooooooooooooooooooo... everyone likes my charm *SWAG* 8)

 

[Coriolis]

I dont know, INTJ's flock to me like Moths on a flame, and I do all the things Stereotypical INTJ's WOULDN'T like.

I make them do things they have never done.
I force them out of "the bubble."
I have them think irrationally every once in a while.
I draw attention to myself, and ergo them also.

So I dont know, I'd say just be yourself?

Also. Be intelligent. I mean, more then usual. Ask them educational based questions you would hear in a seminar. Also ask a lot of "Why?" and thier opinions on things that may seem important to them. That's what I do.

Maybe that's why they are drawn to me?

IDK. Im more 7 then I am ENTP, sooooooooooooooooooooo... everyone likes my charm *SWAG* 8)

Perhaps they just mistake you for ENFP.

 

[evilrubberduckie]

Perhaps they just mistake you for ENFP.

Im pretty sure its because Ive got swag....

 

[Coriolis]

Im pretty sure its because Ive got swag....

There you have it. Works every time.

 

[INTJ123]

I don't encourage NT SJ relations, I've been there, done that.