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[NT] MBTI correlation with LGBTQA+ individuals and coming out

Paris34

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Do you think there is a correlation between MBTI type and the ease at which or the method that an individual takes to discover and understand their sexuality/gender identity?

From personal experience as a queer INTP (5 on the Kinsey scale), I think my type played a big role in my questioning process. Being in the gray area caused me to research for months on end and never really reach a conclusion; I'm still not 100% percent sure because how can you ever be sure about something that can be fluid and subject to slight changes and variances.

I'm willing to hypothesize that my Ti - Ne - Si loop went on the fritz and my Ti starting analyzing all the ways that the information could be wrong or right, Ne found new possibilities and kept adding in other options, and Si had me constantly referring to old info from the past and that I wrongly thought would invalidate my sexuality. (It probably also didn't help my little brain that I've had no experience, so technically this was all theory and could have been wrong, but I'm not particularly fond of going out and playing the field, so I just researched.) And my weak little Fe at the bottom, would occasionally worry about what people would think.

Do you think there is a type that more easily will come to know their true identity - that is once they have moved on from stereotypes and thought that they might fall under the LGBTQA+ umbrella - or a type that the questioning process is easier for?
 

Totenkindly

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My personal impression is that Fi folks seem to be much better at figuring out "who/what" they are and following it. They're used to listening to the inner voice as a source of truth. In the trans community, there is a huge proportion of INFPs that I've run into (for example) far beyond the average distribution for that type.

My personal experience is that I struggled for many, many, many years due to my TiNe factor -- it discounts personal subjective experience as a source of truth, and I always doubt everything. I had to significantly change over the years to be in a position to make decisions about who I "really was."
 

velveteen

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Hmm, I've never felt the need to define my sexuality (not straight). I don't really think about it that much, because it's not something that I feel, it's just something that I am. I also don't think that it's set in stone, [MENTION=22712]Paris34[/MENTION].


As a side note: The non-hetero INFPs and ENFJs I know really like to label themselves as queer, non-binary, pansexual, polyamorous etc etc. I don't doubt their sexual orientations or preferences, but I think it has a lot to do with 1) image/uniqueness/quirks (INFPs) and 2) political correctness (ENFJs).
 

HongDou

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There was some correlational study someone posted a while ago about OKcupid populations. From what I remember, the majority of gay men were ESFJ and the majority of gay women were INTP (someone can correct me if I'm remembering the women's statistics wrong).
 

Seymour

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There was some correlational study someone posted a while ago about OKcupid populations. From what I remember, the majority of gay men were ESFJ and the majority of gay women were INTP (someone can correct me if I'm remembering the women's statistics wrong).

Here's that thread.

The OkCupid data (mentioned in the above thread) is interesting, but not necessarily representative of the non-OkCupid using population. Still, interesting how the percentages work out. Also note statistically that a given type being the most likely to be gay doesn't mean they are the most numerous gay type (particular if the type is pretty rare).

As far as the coming out process: while I was clear about what I was feeling along the way, the INFP tendency to take everything seriously and have to work it through internally was sometimes a drag. My fundamentalist upbringing didn't help either.

Some other gay folks I know seemed to have been more matter of fact, and a lot of their coming out process was dealing with the reactions of others, rather than having much internal stuff to work though.
 

HongDou

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As far as the coming out process: while I was clear about what I was feeling along the way, the INFP tendency to take everything seriously and have to work it through internally was sometimes a drag. My fundamentalist upbringing didn't help either.

Some other gay folks I know seemed to have been more matter of fact, and a lot of their coming out process was dealing with the reactions of others, rather than having much internal stuff to work though.

For me it was much more internal. I had to psychologically get used to the idea of liking men, so when I was 11-14 I called myself bi. It wasn't up until sophomore year when I was 15 when I realized I was gay - thanks to my (bisexual) ENFJ bestie asking me "Chandler, are you attracted to women?" and me responding with "well...I think they're really pretty!" :laugh: Talk about a wake-up call.

OTOH, this ISFJ dude I've been talking to since last year is a few years older than me and still in the closet from his family and friends. His upbringing was a lot more traditional though...and he's in the army, while my mom didn't even try confining me to specific gender roles as much (she let me play with both barbies and hot wheels :D). He's very worried about disappointing his family and is a lot more family-oriented than I am. That could also come from the fact that he has a pretty big family and I'm an only child.
 

Paris34

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There was some correlational study someone posted a while ago about OKcupid populations. From what I remember, the majority of gay men were ESFJ and the majority of gay women were INTP (someone can correct me if I'm remembering the women's statistics wrong).

[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION]: Interesting theory, but I doubt there is any real correlation between types and sexuality, only stereotypes. My question is more how cognition effects someone in the questioning process; I'm curious if there are types who are better suited at reaching a conclusion about there sexuality with more ease than others.

[MENTION=20746]velveteen[/MENTION]: Interesting. Also from my reading up on the types, I wonder if dominant/ Aux Ti plays a part as it has a desire to categorize the world. I'm definitely guilty of this, even if its the most obscure label I will research more into it just because I want to know more. This new information could present a better way of describing something, maybe something that I overlooked as I can ever reach a conclusion because everything is subject to change and subtleties and we can never really know anything for sure. And the more I learn about the details, nuances, and branches of sexuality and gender, the more certain I become in the fact that I know nothing.

[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION]: Good point. I'd definitely second that. I'd also hypothesize that IJ's may be better at reaching a conclusion as not only are they focused internally, but also their Judging functions drive them to reach a conclusion, even if it is an open ended one. Where as IP's (More likely IXTP's), similar to understanding MBTI type struggle to know who they are because they might fear overlooking information that they have yet to process because there is always more to know, more to data to experience(Se) that can be analyzed and more possibilities to consider (Ne) that might have been overlooked and need to be analyzed.

I wonder how Si Dominates approach understanding their sexuality/gender? Would research be their primary method? Would they be in denial for a while? Would they look for past evidence to compare with new feelings arising? Or if in the grayer areas when in denial use past experiences as a way to invalidate current feelings?

____edit added 11:41_______
[MENTION=8074]Seymour[/MENTION]: I just saw your post. Yeah I went through a similar experience, not so much traditional background, but it took me a while to move past the stereotypes.

[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION]:
Yeah, sometimes we can be our own worst enemy and prove to be biggest challenge. Even though I'm out I still struggle with self acceptance too.

Also as for your ISFJ friend, I can imagine that it would be difficult, especially as Si dominates place so much importance on tradition, and add on the Aux (Fe) of wanting to be accommodating to those around you and not upset those you value by challenging what they have though to be true (Si-Fe). And especially if his family is traditional, that just has to make it so much more difficult with the fear of not being accepted socially.
 

á´…eparted

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I'm 6 on kinsey. Coming out was a simple painless process for me. I began to figure out I was gay when I was 13, but it wasn't entirely clear for a few years. I am kind of a sucker for forcing myself to be who I think I should be. Due to social pressure and an incidental moment I dated 2 girls in high school when I was 15. Shortly after the second I figured out I was gay with no question whatsoever now that I had tangible experience. Once confirmed, I came out to a significant number of people.
 

Seymour

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[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION]: I doubt there is any real correlation between types and sexuality, only stereotypes. My question was how cognition effects someone in the questioning process, not if there is a correlation between type and sexuality.

Actually, there have been multiple studies showing that gay men's brains appear to be a bit more feminine (on average) than straight men's brains, and that lesbians' brains tend to be a bit more masculine (again, on average)... and by masculine and feminine I mean tending to show characteristics closer to what is typical for men or women, respectively, empirically. Given that and that Thinking and Feeling are associate with gender statistically, why would you expect gay men and women to show exactly the same break down as straight men and women? Certainly the OkCupid data (such as it is) seems to show real differences according to MBTI type.

As far as gender differences: granted there's mostly overlap for most measures of men and women, with only a few areas showing significant gender difference (such as physical strength, for example). That means that gender differences are often not very predictive of a given person's strengths (even compared to someone of the opposite gender).
 

HongDou

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[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION]: Interesting theory, but I doubt there is any real correlation between types and sexuality, only stereotypes. My question is more how cognition effects someone in the questioning process; I'm curious if there are types who are better suited at reaching a conclusion about there sexuality with more ease than others.

I'm not theorizing, I'm simply adding some background information to the thread.

Any self-aware type will probably have an easier time figuring out their sexuality. I don't think having certain cognitive processes will help anyone figuring out their sexuality, but maybe behavioral patterns exhibited by the types might. I'd say INFPs would probably have an easier time than ESTJs for example, though an ESTJ may have an easier time coming out.
 

Paris34

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Actually, there have been multiple studies showing that gay men's brains appear to be a bit more feminine (on average) than straight men's brains, and that lesbians' brains tend to be a bit more masculine (again, on average)... and by masculine and feminine I mean tending to show characteristics closer to what is typical for men or women, respectively, empirically. Given that and that Thinking and Feeling are associate with gender statistically, why would you expect gay men and women to show exactly the same break down as straight men and women? Certainly the OkCupid data (such as it is) seems to show real differences according to MBTI type.

As far as gender differences: granted there's mostly overlap for most measures of men and women, with only a few areas showing significant gender difference (such as physical strength, for example). That means that gender differences are often not very predictive of a given person's strengths (even compared to someone of the opposite gender).

I've seen those studies and I don't doubt that they hold merit and creditability, however I tend to hold a bias towards and veer away from things that reinforce the stereotypes of sexuality. It was those stereotypes that caused me so much confusion and one of the main reasons why it took me so long to realize my own sexuality. I thought that all lesbians had to be butch with short hair, play sports when they were younger, ect, and stereotypes are much deeper rooted in us than we care to admit and they take longer than a snap of the finger to move past. So, after years of dealing with internal struggles myself, I don't want to reinforce their validity as I understand the harm that they can do, and I don't want other people to have to struggle the same way I did.

That being said, I'm sure there is correlation. And it is quite fascinating actually, as it might correspond to amounts of testosterone/estrogen that you are exposed to when in utero that can indicate sexuality. I know for males they have a higher chance of being gay if they have older brothers. This likely because the mother's testosterone levels drop with each son born, resulting in less testosterone available for the next child. (I could also just be speaking out my a** here so please, please correct me if i'm wrong -> I'm an art major, not biology.) I guess the question to ask here would be does MBTI correlate to the level's of testosterone or estrogen that a person is exposed to?

It could be, but if we drop all of the stereotypes of the dichotomy and look at the functions as a combination of learned and innate behaviors that are ways of perceiving the world. F - is looking for meaning; T - looking for use. Fi - personal meaning;Fe - external meaning. Te - external use and order; Ti - internal use and order. They could correspond and relate to the stereotypes of gender. It would be interesting to see a study done that looked at MBTI and gender through the lens of cognition rather than the dichotomy 4 letter test code (which in my opinion, is highly inaccurate and biased).
 

Lark

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No, I dont think there is any correlation whatsoever between typology and sexuality.

I knew there was an LGBT but an LGBTQAASLKGHDSLTOU or whatever? Really? Sort of wondering when the sort of need for constant novelty and something different being applied from other spheres of human life to human sexual behaviour is going to exhaust itself.
 

á´…eparted

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I knew there was an LGBT but an LGBTQAASLKGHDSLTOU or whatever? Really? Sort of wondering when the sort of need for constant novelty and something different being applied from other spheres of human life to human sexual behaviour is going to exhaust itself.

I think it's kind of silly to go beyond LGBT, personally. If just for the fact that the acronym gets unwieldy (defeating the purpose of an acronym). Further being is it's pretty well understood that it represents individuals who aren't straight or of a typical sexuality. I get why it's done though; inclusivity (something the LGBT community is sensitive about).
 

Lark

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I think it's kind of silly to go beyond LGBT, personally. If just for the fact that the acronym gets unwieldy (defeating the purpose of an acronym). Further being is it's pretty well understood that it represents individuals who aren't straight or of a typical sexuality. I get why it's done though; inclusivity (something the LGBT community is sensitive about).

I'm not even sure that LGBT is a great combination as it is, I understand the goal of inclusivity but do you go as far as designing something like Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual and Heterosexual? Its the logical outcome of being compelled by inclusivity, in the past I've made remark on how in the UK at least, and probably the US, there have been problems as a direct consequence of that inclusivity, sex offender identities have tried hard to sneak themselves in under the umbrella of alt sexuality.

In the UK Liberty, the civil liberties group was taken in by some peadophile network arguing they were a discriminated minority sexual orientation, in the US the North American Man Boy Love Association sought, successfully sometimes, to ally itself with liberal, communist and other alt political associations.

Its interesting to hear anyone still refer to heterosexuality as typical or straight as the norm in the way your post does, then again you are posting outside of the UK and its aggressive normalisation of homosexuality.

It does become unwieldy and I think that it raises questions, there are people who are transexuals I know who dont identify with homosexuality, bisexuality or lesbianism, there are others still who are homosexual, bisexual and lesbian who dont identify as transexual. I think there was an alliance struck at a time when they all felt similarly rejected by the majority but it was a shot gun wedding for a lot of people. Adding still other identities is questionable again. I've known homosexuals who were critical of gay parades and protests in NI because they felt that the demonstrations attracted the weirdest and most deliberately "scene" characters it was possible, alienating, intentionally or accidentially, who swarths of the population.

For instance I've had interesting discussions with male homosexual friends who reject the association of homosexuality with fetishist and BDSM communities but admitted that the representation of the same at gay demos did little to break any association in the public mind relating to the same.
 

Paris34

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I think it's kind of silly to go beyond LGBT, personally. If just for the fact that the acronym gets unwieldy (defeating the purpose of an acronym). Further being is it's pretty well understood that it represents individuals who aren't straight or of a typical sexuality. I get why it's done though; inclusivity (something the LGBT community is sensitive about).

I do agree that it gets a bit ridiculous to try to fit every label into a catch all umbrella term abbreviation, but I do see why its done. The one I tend to use LGBT+ or LGBTQA+, I tend to veer on the side adding the plus sign so that other labels that aren't included for simplicities sake, don't feel excluded.
 

Polaris

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I discovered I was attracted to other guys by developing a crush on another guy and going on to experience countless subsequent instances of attraction to males. I never asked any questions to do that. There was as much deliberation involved as there is in such mentally exhausting tasks as recognizing that a rose is red and that a fish smells displeasing. In other words, my sexuality was discovered through simple perception. There was no reasoning involved except in the area of selecting a label for my orientation, which was beside the matter of knowing my orientation. I think it's that area of selecting a label that gets some people going around and around in circles, because there is usually not much room to be confused about whether you like something or not, even if your degree of fondness for a thing happens to fluctuate. The only type of thing that you can really be unsure whether you like or not is something unknown to you. Most of the things involved in romantic and sexual attraction are well known to everyone by the time they're 10. By that point you know most of what there is to know about the human psyche, personal relationships, and the male and female body structures. If you nevertheless find yourself questioning your orientation, my guess would be that you're over-thinking things quite a bit, which is something I associate with Ne and Ti types.

Obviously, nothing I said really addresses the experiences of a transgendered person. Those are experiences I'm not fully entitled to speak on, never having felt very much at odds with my biological gender. It's really a very different set of issues than being gay, although we're often grouped together and I'm perfectly glad to stand beside transgendered people in some sense.
 

á´…eparted

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I'm not even sure that LGBT is a great combination as it is, I understand the goal of inclusivity but do you go as far as designing something like Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual and Heterosexual? Its the logical outcome of being compelled by inclusivity, in the past I've made remark on how in the UK at least, and probably the US, there have been problems as a direct consequence of that inclusivity, sex offender identities have tried hard to sneak themselves in under the umbrella of alt sexuality.

The point of it is to refer to minority sexual orientations. Since hetereosexuality is largely considered "normal" (and when I say that I am not implying that anything else is abnormal), it would be excluded from the term. It's a population/commonality term. When someone says racial minorities, they refer to everyone that would not be part of the most common race in the area.


Its interesting to hear anyone still refer to heterosexuality as typical or straight as the norm in the way your post does, then again you are posting outside of the UK and its aggressive normalisation of homosexuality.

I can't comment on how the UK is acting towards homosexuality since I am not well versed in how it's approached there. The reason I say hetereosexuality is typical or the norm is because it is. It's a fact. The majority of the worlds population falls under the category of hetereosexual. To refer to it in any other manner is just in correct. With that said, I think the term aggressive normalization is unfair. Nearly all sexual orientations could easily be considered normal. The main reason is they occur naturally, and aren't harmful. The major exception to this would be pedophilia due to the fact that it very often is harmful (and this would be considered abnormal).


It does become unwieldy and I think that it raises questions, there are people who are transexuals I know who dont identify with homosexuality, bisexuality or lesbianism, there are others still who are homosexual, bisexual and lesbian who dont identify as transexual. I think there was an alliance struck at a time when they all felt similarly rejected by the majority but it was a shot gun wedding for a lot of people. Adding still other identities is questionable again. I've known homosexuals who were critical of gay parades and protests in NI because they felt that the demonstrations attracted the weirdest and most deliberately "scene" characters it was possible, alienating, intentionally or accidentially, who swarths of the population.

For instance I've had interesting discussions with male homosexual friends who reject the association of homosexuality with fetishist and BDSM communities but admitted that the representation of the same at gay demos did little to break any association in the public mind relating to the same.

It really is just a term/label. Most implicitly know what it means. Ultimately it's a semantics argument and I do not get involved in those. Nearly everyone knows what it means, and that's good enough.

I'm gay and I am not actively involved in the community, I just don't have an interest. I have more fun in other communities. If you observe any type of minority movement, or any oppressed group really, the deviant, atypical, rabble-raisers, and attention grabbers are the loudest and most prominant. I personally have a very strong distaste for people who cause civil unrest that disrupts the livelyhoods of those not involved in the conflict regardless of what it is for. When you alienate or anger others, they'll dig their heels in further. It just doesn't work. I do not feel it gets the job done and in this modern there are better ways to get the job done.
 

Totenkindly

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I think it's kind of silly to go beyond LGBT, personally. If just for the fact that the acronym gets unwieldy (defeating the purpose of an acronym). Further being is it's pretty well understood that it represents individuals who aren't straight or of a typical sexuality. I get why it's done though; inclusivity (something the LGBT community is sensitive about).

Yeah, but some of these attempts to be inclusionary are rather a fiasco. Aside from the uneasy alliance between trans and G/L (you can overlap and be both L/G and trans), the Intersexed (for example) don't even necessarily want to be included. I attended an Intersex workshop a few years ago at the Philly Trans healthcare conference and the intersexed guy there explained they were never even asked, there was no "alliance" of intersexed folks, and they typically did not even want to be called out -- it was a traumatic experience, not one of "pride" and making themselves public at that time. So at least in that particular sector, the attempts to be "inclusionary" were really just the idea of one of the gay/queer groups deciding for everyone else what would be good for them... it might have been well-intended but in some ways was a negative example.

Anyway, bailing on that topic. It's not the topic of the thread (although a new thread could be started on that issue if people cared to do so). To get back to the topic at hand, I don't think MBTI and non-cis/not-het stuff is necessarily related on a biological level; however, I think type can strongly influence how easily one can arrive at and embrace an identity that is non-cis/non-het. Some types have trouble challenging the status quo or have trouble with an internal and/or feeling-based locus of resolving identity.
 

Seymour

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I've seen those studies and I don't doubt that they hold merit and creditability, however I tend to hold a bias towards and veer away from things that reinforce the stereotypes of sexuality. It was those stereotypes that caused me so much confusion and one of the main reasons why it took me so long to realize my own sexuality. I thought that all lesbians had to be butch with short hair, play sports when they were younger, ect, and stereotypes are much deeper rooted in us than we care to admit and they take longer than a snap of the finger to move past. So, after years of dealing with internal struggles myself, I don't want to reinforce their validity as I understand the harm that they can do, and I don't want other people to have to struggle the same way I did.

I'm fine with all that. I certainly don't think it's true that every (or even a big majority) of gay men are effeminate, or that a every lesbians (or even a big majority) are butch. Still, I think it's hard to argue that gay men, on average, are a little bit more effeminate that straight men, even if any given gay man might fall anywhere on the spectrum. I think one can be empirically descriptive without resorting to stereotypes.

Certainly for myself I wonder if I over-emphasize being masculine because of fear of playing into gay stereotypes. It's hard to be entirely certain. Of course, as a computer programmer I have the freedom to come across as a geek, which is a nice out at times.

That being said, I'm sure there is correlation. And it is quite fascinating actually, as it might correspond to amounts of testosterone/estrogen that you are exposed to when in utero that can indicate sexuality. I know for males they have a higher chance of being gay if they have older brothers. This likely because the mother's testosterone levels drop with each son born, resulting in less testosterone available for the next child. (I could also just be speaking out my a** here so please, please correct me if i'm wrong -> I'm an art major, not biology.) I guess the question to ask here would be does MBTI correlate to the level's of testosterone or estrogen that a person is exposed to?

I could certainly see T vs F correlating, although I'd more surprised if other aspects did. In Big Five terms, Agreeableness tends to correlate (negatively) with testosterone. While MBTI Feeling is a little more narrow than Big Five Agreeableness (Feeling doesn't incorporate tendency to trust others, for example), that study is a little bit of evidence (however tentative) that testosterone levels might affect the T/F preference.

It could be, but if we drop all of the stereotypes of the dichotomy and look at the functions as a combination of learned and innate behaviors that are ways of perceiving the world. F - is looking for meaning; T - looking for use. Fi - personal meaning;Fe - external meaning. Te - external use and order; Ti - internal use and order. They could correspond and relate to the stereotypes of gender. It would be interesting to see a study done that looked at MBTI and gender through the lens of cognition rather than the dichotomy 4 letter test code (which in my opinion, is highly inaccurate and biased).

Well, I'd say that seeing things as dichotomies is overly reductive, and strength of preference plays a big role empirically (where a weak preference appears to lead to a weak behavioral effect). Still, I could see that preferences could have a notable effect in how the coming out process plays out for someone. Certainly the SPs I know (especially the ESPs) tended to spend less time agonizing about things internally before acting externally.
 

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Any self-aware type will probably have an easier time figuring out their sexuality. I don't think having certain cognitive processes will help anyone figuring out their sexuality, but maybe behavioral patterns exhibited by the types might. I'd say INFPs would probably have an easier time than ESTJs for example, though an ESTJ may have an easier time coming out.

Last semester two of my female roommates started dating each other. The INTJ had known she was bi since early high school and while she had never actually come out to us, we all knew. INFP roommate on the other hand was 21 years old and had no clue she had the potential to be attracted to women. In fact, she didn't even realize she had feelings for INTJ roommate until we all basically told her. Once they started dating she and I were talking and I asked her if she had even been attracted to women before to which she responded "No, but, I figured INTJ roommate and I where really good friends so why not? I've never really been attracted to guys either." :shrug: I don't understand how that works, or how you can just not know you are attracted to someone. But, obviously I can only speak from my experience, which is quite limited.
 
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