[MBTI General] N v. S

[Jack Flak]

Would a war be started or stopped because of an individuals veto?

The President, as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, has that authority. (While an act of Congress is required to declare war officially, the President can wage a de facto war, and has.)

 

[BlueScreen]

Tell me something.

Would the congress of the United States change a bill if it didn't coincide with a single persons will? Would a war be started or stopped because of an individuals veto? Would it give unlimited funding for a project just because a single individual wanted it?

Would you change the whole schooling system because a single student might be offended?

Or would they just reply "Shit happens."

Depends who these individuals were, their positions and the merit of their arguments.

You wouldn't change the whole school system because of an individual. But you would not make the school system in a way that stopped it from adapting to accommodate the individual. Otherwise a third of your country could go uneducated because something suited the majority but ruled out certain individuals for different reasons. It is quite a complex system and cannot be simplified in the way you have suggested.

At the top level decisions need to be made in such a way, but should be accompanied by an awareness of the needs of the individual and their liberties, so as not to annul their use or existence.

 

[Darjur]

The President, as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, has that authority.

Yes, but a immigrant who came with a green card last week does not.
He's an individual as well.


Also, ok, one individual of a population 303,824,640, what about the remaining 303,824,639 individuals?

 

[Jack Flak]

Yes, but a immigrant who came with a green card last week does not.
He's an individual as well.


Also, ok, one individual of a population 303,824,640, what about the remaining 303,824,639 individuals?

The debate of majority rule vs. minority rights (or rule, in fact) is one of the most important in history and philosophically, and if you claim the unequivocal superiority of majority rule, I disagree with you.

 

[Darjur]

Depends who these individuals were, their positions and the merit of their arguments.

You wouldn't change the whole school system because of an individual. But you would not make the school system in a way that stopped it from adapting to accommodate the individual. Otherwise a third of your country could go uneducated because something suited the majority but ruled out a certain group. It is quite a complex system and cannot be simplified in the way you have suggested.

A group of individuals isn't a single individual. Fact remains a single random kids wishes would be refuted with a comment similar to "shit happens"

 

[Darjur]

The debate of majority rule vs. minority rights (or rule, in fact) is one of the most important in history and philosophically, and if you claim the unequivocal superiority of majority rule, I disagree with you.

I don't claim majority rule. I hate democracy as a matter of fact so that would be quite counter intuitive.

 

[Jack Flak]

I don't claim majority rule. I hate democracy as a matter of fact so that would be quite counter intuitive.

Okay. You were previously denying the importance of individuals within society, and I disagree with that position as well.

 

[BlueScreen]

yeh, the conclusion that the individual can be ignored was where I disagree. Dajur's take on stereotypes was quite insightful and correct. They are normally formed from a pattern in a certain part of society. People do not invent the cliche from thin air, a trend normally precedes it, or something widespread and defining in the media.

 

[Jack Flak]

Dajur's take on stereotypes was quite insightful and correct.

I agree. The biggest problem I see in stereotyping is not their incorrectness (which isn't guaranteed), but that the titles and the categories often don't coincide. Such is the case with racial stereotypes, which are really based on cultural categories.

 

[BlueScreen]

I agree. The biggest problem I see in stereotyping is not their incorrectness (which isn't guaranteed), but that the titles and the categories often don't coincide. Such is the case with racial stereotypes, which are really based on cultural categories.

Yeh, the categorisation is often wrong. The racial stereotypes normally coincide with socioeconomic effects rather than ethnicity.

 

[bronte]

I dont think it matters if there is even a tiny grain of truth in a stereotype (often these 'truths' are based on a misunderstanding of a culture steeped in ignorance of that culture or there may have been a grain of truth in the dim and distant past) Stereotypes are simplistic over generalizations that do not represent most individuals within a group. They generally serve to to enhance our own self-identity and are harmful in that they are the foundation for prejudice and discrimination. They also create obstacles in getting to know people for whom they are versus who we think they might be - if we do this we limit ourselves. They are also dangerous if they sink into the psyche of a group and that group then begins to limit themselves through this stereotype.

Joke stereotypes are no less harmful - take the Barbara Windsor Carry on Nursing character of the 'naughty nurse' - stupid and up for it - perhaps to some this is a joke but its not to the nurse who is pestered by patients who think its ok to stick their hand up her shirt or the guy at the bar who makes stupid lewd comments in some cases it has led to rape.

Stereotyping people is lazy - in the Uk if we want to liv a world of stereotypes we read the Daily Mail - I'm sure there must be an equivalent in the states.

 

[Jack Flak]

Nurses aren't naughty? There goes my world view, right out the window of fate.

 

[Darjur]

Stereotyping people is lazy - in the Uk if we want to liv a world of stereotypes we read the Daily Mail - I'm sure there must be an equivalent in the states.

You seem to be one of the people who think that all stereotypes are like "ughuuu niggers are stupid n' like chicken n' watermellon durr durr durr durrr"

I can bet all my awnings that you constantly stereotype all day long.

 

[bronte]

we all stereotype based on our own culture, upbringing and education - but i do try to be aware of it

and i dont think like that

just out of interest - why do you feel the need to be so rude? You dont know me and i dont know you yet you seem to have made up your mind about how i think based on very little information - why not ask qustions to verify rather than throw mud - or is that more fun?

 

[Darjur]

we all stereotype based on our own culture, upbringing and education - but i do try to be aware of it

and i dont think like that

just out of interest - why do you feel the need to be so rude? You dont know me and i dont know you yet you seem to have made up your mind about how i think based on very little information - why not ask qustions to verify rather than throw mud - or is that more fun?

Any speculation whatsoever that is concerning something is technically a stereotype, you can't be aware of that or avoid it.

That was a joke and I don't really care if I'm rude or not. Actually, I prefer to be rude, people tend to get my point of view faster taht way.

 

[Samurai Drifter]

Joke stereotypes are no less harmful - take the Barbara Windsor Carry on Nursing character of the 'naughty nurse' - stupid and up for it - perhaps to some this is a joke but its not to the nurse who is pestered by patients who think its ok to stick their hand up her shirt or the guy at the bar who makes stupid lewd comments in some cases it has led to rape.

You're right. It's a travesty that nurses are regarded as naughty. Asian women are naturally entitled to respect and dignity. I believe a character in the book Shogun said it best: "They're like rabbits, they appreciate love and affection."

 

[bronte]

well if you prefer to be rude then i suppose you dont mind offending people by stereotyping them.

going through life being rude and offensive though will limit your life

but its your life so good luck to you.

 

[Samurai Drifter]

well if you prefer to be rude then i suppose you dont mind offending people by stereotyping them.

going through life being rude and offensive though will limit your life

but its your life so good luck to you.

Isn't this technically a stereotype of rude people?

 

[Jack Flak]

Isn't this technically a stereotype of rude people?

Yeah. Some very happy, successful people are rude.

 

[sarah]

I don't know. It doesn't make any sense to me either. The only reason I think that at all is because I've heard so many people on here say that Sensors can't have conversations like this, and provide endless examples and rationalizations of that perspective. Notice that I just questioned it, of course, but it's hard not to be influenced by what others say, especially if they seem intelligent and worthy of respect in many ways.

Sure, I understand why it happens. It seems obvious that the people who say that aren't very knowledgable about temperament, or not very good at accurately determining the type of others around them. If someone chooses to believe that they can't talk with people who prefer Sensing because all such people are supposed to be shallow, stupid, vapid, etc., then isn't it inevitable that they will believe that everyone they meet who isn't stupid/shallow/vapid must prefer Intuition? It's self-fulfilling belief, because there's no way anybody can prove otherwise.

Jeffster, I can understand why you think Sarah's approach wouldn't be helpful to educating people who don't know any better, but I think that it did serve a purpose. There really are misunderstood (and sometimes maladjusted) people here who use MBTI mostly to comfort themselves with generalizations that make them feel justified in feeling victimized by a world full of ignorant, unintelligent sensors. Some of them are actually very intelligent, but misuse that intelligence to spread their venom.

This actually happened a lot on INTPc, this place drew quite a few members from there, and despite our best efforts, some of that negative culture found its way into the culture of this forum, albeit in diluted (and sometimes unconscious) form.

The interesting part, is that not everyone is so much a venom spreader, as that they've become entranced by venom spreaders. This is what happened to me. A few intelligent INTPs rationalized their views on sensors, and they earned my respect, and I began to respect and help rationalize their views more because I cared what they thought of me (and maybe to indulge a little with them in a comforting victimization for a moment) than because I thought it was true (often I just wouldn't let myself think about it). Later on, things like what Sarah said here actually guilted me into confronting and trying to adjust my own behavior... probably because part of me already knew it wasn't right.

I really don't envy Sarah's position here, though. She's an ISFP with developed Ni. That means she sees things like this, and the other SPs tell her it's not there or that she's taking an impractical, high-handed approach, while most of the Ns have good reasons to want to deny she had a point (whether consciously or unconsciously), and just casually outmaneuver her in their avoidance. Although you have to appreciate the irony in that part of the reason she finds more fault with us Ns, is because she has started to become more like us.

This is all just an idea, though... can't say that it's definitely true or anything. Take from it what you will.

That sounds exactly right, from my point of view. Thank you for articulating it so well.

Which is why I'm thinking being here is probably just a huge waste of my time. What I'm getting by way of feedback (not from you, Athenian -- just in general) is that negative stereotypes are fun, and it's a blast to spread them around and wallow in them. Anyone who doesn't agree with them is not supposed to ruin it for the people having fun. If anyone calls the stereotypes ridiculous, then they must deal with being blasted for being "oversensitive" or "politically correct", even though their comments were simply statements of disagreement rather than an attempt to pretend that reality is other than it is. This is something I can definitely live without, so I doubt I'll be spending much time here this new year. Anyone whom I've enjoyed talking with, feel free to PM me if you want to chat about something, but I'm pretty much done with the discussion board.