[ENTJ] Why do ENTJ's bully

[Jet Stream]

I was thinking on the ENTJ/INTJ divide and have found two clips that I feel summarize both sides pretty eloquently.

ENTJ Bullying

INTJ Intimidation

Vito Corleone is not INTJ. Common misconception. He is xNFJ. His concerns were ones of unity and peaceful order among the 5 families. Just watch part 2. Fe abounds (murdering Don Fanucci for taking advantage of the poor folk of his community, confronting the landlord in defense of the old lady who was behind on rent who he responded to with an expression of piercing compassion upon listening to her description of her plight, among other examples). Fictional underworld boss with little reservations about using violence as a means to an end does not always equal NTJ.

 

[Coriolis]

I'm British, if that wasn't obvious by the impeccable manners and excellent command of English.

No, it wasn't obvious.

As a brit I'm brought up with a conversational style which requires the listener to do some of the work. When I started posting on forums I was greeted with a lot of people who wanted me to explain everything and would make aspersions based on me not explaining myself to their satisfaction. Now I could have just stuck talking to those who could follow me and put two fingers up to all others but that would say as much about how limited my capabilities are as theirs. Hence I've learned to be less non-sequiturs but it doesn't stop me meandering around a subject like a cross eyed glaswegian after a long night out.

I would suggest the same to you. You know your preferences but are you aware if the preferences of the other person and are you as accommodating as you are asking them to be?

I agree with the listener having a share of the work of communication. I am also willing to explain myself or elaborate when asked. I am not going to assume that's what the other person wants, though, until they do ask. This is because I am not aware of someone else's preferences until they express them. I am far more forgiving on the receiving end of communication that is not my style, meaning it is easier for me to hear someone else's style than to try to express myself in a style not my own. I see that as letting me be me, and you be you. When the inevitable misunderstanding or confusion arises, whoever has it just raises the flag, and we revisit that part of the discussion.

 

[Xander]

I agree with the listener having a share of the work of communication. I am also willing to explain myself or elaborate when asked. I am not going to assume that's what the other person wants, though, until they do ask. This is because I am not aware of someone else's preferences until they express them. I am far more forgiving on the receiving end of communication that is not my style, meaning it is easier for me to hear someone else's style than to try to express myself in a style not my own. I see that as letting me be me, and you be you. When the inevitable misunderstanding or confusion arises, whoever has it just raises the flag, and we revisit that part of the discussion.

Sorry but that's still not flexing away from your comfort zone and reduces the likely efficacy of the conversation. Not all types are as prone to be comfortable with "revisiting" parts if the discussion as they may feel that to be risking confrontation. Their chosen course maybe to not speak of it and just to walk away.

Of course you are free to not care and continue upon your merry way ,however, then one of those annoying things which forms a block between the current position and the goal is you.

My father struggled to deal with my sister and I for many years. We are linked by the trait of stubbornness and dislike of assumed authority. Only after he learned of MBTI and only after he applied his knowledge to his communication and put the effort in, only then did he find it all much easier to do. There are still days when he just doesn't care and will do the cannon approach and just blast through opposition but he has the option.

 

[RandomINTP]

I wouldn't call any types universally good or evil.
Morality:

Wrong. Good and Evil belongs to the ethical axis.
The moral axis is the Law and Chaos part of the alignment.
I think it is kinda type related though. Have you noticed that Js are usually lawful whereas Ps are usually chaotic? Of course there's neutral morality but in general, J means Law and P means chaos. I personally see myself as Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral/True Neutral.

 

[Xander]

Wrong. Good and Evil belongs to the ethical axis.
The moral axis is the Law and Chaos part of the alignment.
I think it is kinda type related though. Have you noticed that Js are usually lawful whereas Ps are usually chaotic? Of course there's neutral morality but in general, J means Law and P means chaos. I personally see myself as Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral/True Neutral.

Depends upon how you define law vs chaos. If you go back to the books, one values structure and the other independence . I know plenty of Js who value the latter and I, for one, do not cherish life without structure. Too many variables and no solutions.

 

[Coriolis]

Sorry but that's still not flexing away from your comfort zone and reduces the likely efficacy of the conversation. Not all types are as prone to be comfortable with "revisiting" parts if the discussion as they may feel that to be risking confrontation. Their chosen course maybe to not speak of it and just to walk away.

And I could walk away when they start speaking what might sound like random gibberish to me. That would be staying in my comfort zone. If I have any stake in the outcome, however, I will try to figure out what they mean, then ask them if I have interpreted correctly. Sometimes it takes several iterations to get it right. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother. I don't think it is too much to expect that they might put out a bit of effort if what I say doesn't immediately make sense to them. The idea of my being able (1) to correctly guess how the other person prefers to hear information, and (2) to deliver my content in just that manner, multiplied by the diversity of humans and human expression, is more than unrealistic. It is ridiculous.

 

[Xander]

And I could walk away when they start speaking what might sound like random gibberish to me. That would be staying in my comfort zone. If I have any stake in the outcome, however, I will try to figure out what they mean, then ask them if I have interpreted correctly. Sometimes it takes several iterations to get it right. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother. I don't think it is too much to expect that they might put out a bit of effort if what I say doesn't immediately make sense to them. The idea of my being able (1) to correctly guess how the other person prefers to hear information, and (2) to deliver my content in just that manner, multiplied by the diversity of humans and human expression, is more than unrealistic. It is ridiculous.

Whilst I agree with your concept and sympathise with the issue, I have one counter point which represents my mother's input to my psyche (I think).

What's more ridiculous, that you have to guess how to deliver your content across the diversity of humanity or every other person you meet putting the effort in? You cannot control other people no matter how hard you try, so you may as well assume responsibility for it in general and hope to be proved wrong regularly.

I would never expect anyone to constantly moderate their communication to suit the other person but it does make sense to always be aware of how you may come across and your tendencies in communication the same way as type.

 

[Coriolis]

Whilst I agree with your concept and sympathise with the issue, I have one counter point which represents my mother's input to my psyche (I think).

What's more ridiculous, that you have to guess how to deliver your content across the diversity of humanity or every other person you meet putting the effort in? You cannot control other people no matter how hard you try, so you may as well assume responsibility for it in general and hope to be proved wrong regularly.

I would never expect anyone to constantly moderate their communication to suit the other person but it does make sense to always be aware of how you may come across and your tendencies in communication the same way as type.

Every other person should put some effort in, just like me. Yes, I know not everyone does. Not everyone manages debt well or eats a healthy diet or shows up to work on time. Still, we value these things for the most part. I'm not sure how telling someone you didn't understand them is such an imposition. Seems like simple common sense, not to mention the best way to figure out how you come across.

 

[ceecee]

My father struggled to deal with my sister and I for many years. We are linked by the trait of stubbornness and dislike of assumed authority. Only after he learned of MBTI and only after he applied his knowledge to his communication and put the effort in, only then did he find it all much easier to do. There are still days when he just doesn't care and will do the cannon approach and just blast through opposition but he has the option.

My father is an ENTJ and we like to refer to it as the "nuclear option". I know he knows at least a little about MBTI so, he can adjust his communication. That has increased as he's gotten older but how much is really an adjustment on his part and how much is him simply growing weary of the fight, I'm not sure.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Interesting thread. I will have to read it fully to get a fuller understanding of the discussion in here, but I'll give my answer to the OP and the addendum.

Occasionally I utilize some interrogation tactics. Hostile questioning.
I see the use of psychological force falling on a continuum of hostile and less hostile methods. I am careful in having methods to fill every spot in that continuum, so that I may not need to resort to an needlessly forceful method where a softer method is applicable.
Some tasks require authority. People are funny figures in needing such authority and how they respond to it. Again with the continuum of expressing authority. Too much of it is silly, some of it is required to get some job done. Most tasks I do I accomplish with displaying no authority whatsoever.
I dont want to be a dick and I'm not enjoying if I were, but I'm ready to use psychological power to some pre-determined level, determined by assessment of the situation. Some situations call for a mild plead. Some for mild persuasion. If I acted in a situation where someone's life and health were in immediate danger, I would allow for harsher words.
I sometimes do some kind of development work, project leading, designing and such. I know that they have rarely the chance to injure people severly, but knowing how a project is managed effectively, I can spot some important parts in the design process that have to be done well. I'm not interested of forcing everyone to do anything my way, but instead I know there's a relatively large collection of valid approaches to some situation. I would not try to stop someone from using a method that isn't a danger to our objectives. If I were in doubt, I would politely ask until I got the picture of the situation. Again, if I had some superior method in place and I thought its worth the trouble to press on the issue, I would offer some arguments to using my method. I would assess if trying to convince someone is worth the trouble. I might also deduce that I don't have sufficient knowledge of the problem in question, and leave someone wiser or more experienced to handle the issue. But yeah, I would be ready to defend my viewpoint if necessary.

If I noticed I've started bullying someone, I'd change my behavior until it's no longer bullying.

 

[Tippo]

Only the insecure bully. It's pointless to create havoc when your direction is correct.

 

[Tippo]

Seriously. Why even bother to play such a game? If someone's looking to scrap.. well, they can get their sense of self-satisfaction without me having to waste my time or energy.

Because, if you're not first, you're last.....

 

[Tippo]

Whilst I agree with your concept and sympathise with the issue, I have one counter point which represents my mother's input to my psyche (I think).

What's more ridiculous, that you have to guess how to deliver your content across the diversity of humanity or every other person you meet putting the effort in? You cannot control other people no matter how hard you try, so you may as well assume responsibility for it in general and hope to be proved wrong regularly.

I would never expect anyone to constantly moderate their communication to suit the other person but it does make sense to always be aware of how you may come across and your tendencies in communication the same way as type.

I'm always adjusting the delivery of my responses based upon my interactions in conversation.

On another note, you speak like Spock!!! Cool.

 

[Tippo]

numerous ENTJs (including a few who have posted here) i've seen bully and maybe it's a blind spot, but them saying they never bully is utter fucking bs. and there truth about others is all projection, like they know more than any one else.personally i wouldn't care if a handful of them just dissapeared

Haha, I know I'm smarter than you..........

 

[Tippo]

I have no idea what your "area of strength and competency" is. If it's being completely dismissive and demeaning to a relative newbie posting his own answer in good faith, you're doing very well.

"So your issue boils to down to ENTJs are not ENFPs. Got it."

Can we leave it there. I'll continue discussing it with Xander.

I promise you, debating this intj will only make you appear foolish. On another note, I've always been a jerk.

 

[Jaguar]

numerous ENTJs (including a few who have posted here) i've seen bully and maybe it's a blind spot, but them saying they never bully is utter fucking bs. and there truth about others is all projection, like they know more than any one else.personally i wouldn't care if a handful of them just dissapeared

I haven't seen any ENTJs encouraging people to kill themselves - that's a form of bullying.

 

[Bush]

Because, if you're not first, you're last.....

And being considered last place in a game that you're not even playing is a bad thing because ... ?

Hell, I didn't even place in the 2014 WSSA World Sport Stacking Championships. Probably in part because I didn't participate. Do I care? No.

 

[Mademoiselle]

First be satisfied this post is bully-free if you try to understand what I mean and not generate orher meanings I don't mean.

Bullying is for losers, cowards who fear to lose attention, if it was an ENTJ or anyother type.
And not all ENTJs bully as not all ENTJs are cowards..

Bullying should be some psycho issue, sick peiole do to pleas etheir surrounding, it's insecurity and attention seeking, it's people who used to/have complexes with certain things that now bully people about.

If I was sensitive and easily get hurt, if I was selfish and ego, I'd count this post as an offince and a chance to insult ENTJs, and I wonder if it's jealousy?
If it is then it's a mistake as every type is equally amazing and briliant, you'd agree with me if you looked outside the box.

Anyway I'd count it as a misunderstanding, we love to guide people, our way to show we care, we love to have presence and we think everyone should be so or at least don't mind it.

 

[Tippo]

And being considered last place in a game that you're not even playing is a bad thing because ... ?

Hell, I didn't even place in the 2014 WSSA World Sport Stacking Championships. Probably in part because I didn't participate. Do I care? No.

It's a movie quote. Only an idiot would embrace those words. Hence, hilarious.

 

[Tippo]

The bullying I'm referring too sounds like this...

"Even a moron knows how derivatives are valued"

"You have to be a retard. Unless your mother dropped you when you were a baby and you had some serious brain damage and can barely feed yourself perhaps you would know about the black-sholes model."

things of that nature. I particularly hate the word retard when used in a derogatory way and I immediately lose all respect for anyone who uses it no matter who what or where....

and then other people chiming in like...

"I'm user777, you retard...you're clearly an idiot.."

I can understand something like, "even a moron could do that..." in a certain context...but between two people and one making a public spectacle out of the other Is jarring.

Note: all from entj message boards on the net......

I find there are like five or six entj's on respective entj boards like reddit and they have been there for like 4 years and they get really mad when another person comes on the board, entj or not. On some boards you even have to ask the users to post there, benign or not, even though the admins don't care.

Again, if you know anything about entj's...very, very few have active memberships to forums for 4 + years...so i think they are just trolls/narcissists who feed off lost souls.

I find this ONLY on very few website forum sections and one of them is ENTJ on any given board except for this one...

On one site i was defending an old woman who was fighting what seemed to be another old woman entj and the woman entj was calling her a tramp.

here people are quite mature...if they are making snarky funny comments they don't use words like that because they are incredibly intelligent and truly humorous.

I know everyone on my friends list here, and some others I've missed, have made me smile from ear to ear even in pure and utter sarcasm. It's a rare breed here. It's top notch.

Plus I have asbergers syndrome and even though I am smart and have academic accolades I've only recently been able to finally make a decent living so when someone calls me a retard it makes me feel like rat **** and I have distant relatives who are autistic so it's very, very jarring...

I remember the bullies in high-school who used to say that I would never make it because even though I had straight A's I didn't have common sense...well now I'm finally paying my rent so ha ha to them..

I was banned from the INTJ forum for this very reason. Any person, attacking the mentally challenged will be challenged immediately sparing no holding back. Irl, I am intolerant in these scenarios and never challenged. Most morons expressing that type of vocal hatred are very insecure.