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[ENTJ] Why do ENTJ's bully

Xander

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Is that like the pop psych equivalent of going against a Sicilian when there's death on the line? :p
It's like poking a bear with a really short pointed stick...
I think the issue I take with this is the assumption that competition is necessarily a zero sum interaction, which seems to be pretty common with the Fe/Ti set. I don't see someone being "better than me" in some way or another to be threatening-- it's just life. If I'm in a collaborative setting, I want to know in what ways the people around me are more competent so that I can make sure I can leverage them as effectively as possible. Someone else's gifts can be enhancing to the whole if they're channeled properly.

When I talk about pacing myself against the greats, the impetus is not so much "competition" as studying genius enhances my conception of what's possible. I do it because it feels good to stretch myself in that way.
This pacing yourself... Sounds more internalised thinking to me. You sure you haven't developed past the limits of what's written about ENTJs and gone rogue?

If so I'd look nervous. If anyone shouts stuff like "mutant" or "it must not breed" for God's sake don't try to reason with them... Just run!
 

violet_crown

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It's like poking a bear with a really short pointed stick...

Meow :3

This pacing yourself... Sounds more internalised thinking to me. You sure you haven't developed past the limits of what's written about ENTJs and gone rogue?

If so I'd look nervous. If anyone shouts stuff like "mutant" or "it must not breed" for God's sake don't try to reason with them... Just run!

Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.
 

Tennessee Jed

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To answer the title of the thread: One kind of has to define bullying. Fe-Doms are sometimes considered to be the bullies of the MBTI if one defines bullying in terms of setting rules and being oppressive about them. Whereas Te-Doms can come across as bullying in terms of being mean and rolling over people to get what they want. Because of T.

Anyway, this is about ENTJs. So let me take what Fia said as my starting point.

Both scenarios happen, and there can be a tendency for T-doms to have internal feelings they are not conscious of, so they can go into a hyper-"rational" sort of mode that becomes deeply passive aggressive. To push people's buttons, get the other person upset, and then maintain this attitude, of "calm down, you are irrational. Listen to my detached and accurate assumptions. I am right, you are wrong, but you are just too emotional to see the truth." [...]

IMO, Te-doms are never going to see themselves this way. Te-Doms can say, "Well, it's just button-pushing and boundary-testing. It's nothing personal; we don't even feel emotions or care about you personally." But it's easy for non-Te-Doms to see Te-Doms as pushy and passive-aggressive from the outside. Button-pushing and boundary-testing doesn't happen in a vacuum. The person on the receiving end had something that the ENTJ wanted, and they got knocked down and steamrolled as a result. They got specifically targeted; as a result, it feels personal to them.

Anyway. How to reconcile these two viewpoints: Boundary-testing vs. bullying and (passive-) agression? IMO, the difference lies in how well the Te-Dom recognizes and observes basic principles, limits, and personal boundaries.

For example, I love Te-Doms who have spent their lives in the business/corporate world. They get it. You set a boundary, let them know that there are going to be repercussions if they cross that boundary, and they hear you. They back off and respect those limits that you set. The working world has conditioned them to respect certain principles. So the rest of us get to enjoy the brilliance of these particular Te-Doms without getting steamrolled on those few points or in those few areas that are really important to us.

OTOH, I hate Te-Doms who haven't spent much time in the business/corporate world. I notice that they often don't respect other people's limits. You say to them, "Look, this thing is important to me. DON'T FUCK WITH IT!" And they respond, "Yes, I understand, that's important to you, I won't mess with it." But a week later, they're surreptitiously pushing at you, trying to get that thing from you. And if you challenge them on it, they'll just act like YOU'RE the one being paranoid, tell you they have no interest in that thing, and then a week later they'll try pushing at you again in an even more devious fashion.

I think that the latter case is where Te-Doms can come off as passive-aggressive, devious, competitive, and all that other stuff. IOW, most or even all Te-Doms freely admit to button-pushing and boundary-testing. But it can turn infantile when it's done without limits and respect for the rights of others. At such times, this is where Te-Doms get seen in a negative light, even though they're just doing their Te-Dom thing.

BTW, the same can be said for any other cognitive function. For example, I'm an INFP; personally I hate it when other INFPs act infantile and crusade for their own values as though no other ethics or value systems can possibly be valid except theirs. They get on their high horse, they shame other people, they bully people, and so on. So by extension this same principle (lack of respect for people's personal boundaries resulting in bullying) can apply to any other function as well.

But the discussion here is about ENTJs, so I'm picking on them at the moment. Also, there's something about the nature of Te-Dom in particular (boundary-testing) which can arguably put Te-Doms directly at odds with the concept of respecting other people's principles, limits, and personal boundaries to a greater degree than some other functions.
 

Zero-11

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Whereas Te-Doms can come across as bullying in terms of being mean and rolling over people to get what they want. Because of T.
thats not how it works

It's nothing personal; we don't even feel emotions or care about you personally.
No one with conscious Fi/Te would ever say this. Fi feels emotions Fe just executes them.

"we don´t even feel emotions or care about you personally" is emotional language (it talks about them)

Button-pushing and boundary-testing doesn't happen in a vacuum. The person on the receiving end had something that the ENTJ wanted, and they got knocked down and steamrolled as a result. They got specifically targeted; as a result, it feels personal to them.
Thats Fe not Te.
 

Tennessee Jed

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thats not how it works


No one with conscious Fi/Te would ever say this. Fi feels emotions Fe just executes them.

"we don´t even feel emotions or care about you personally" is emotional language (it talks about them)


Thats Fe not Te.

I was working in part from one of Wind Up Rex's posts, quoted below. I put my own spin on her thoughts, but she kinda did say those things.

That's not to put Rex down in any way. She was blunt, and I respect that.

Alright, so while my initial impulse was clearly to troll and disregard this thread, I'm opting to take a slightly more constructive approach in the name of good faith.

Firstly, I want to make it clear that I'm neither apologizing nor defending ENTJs here, but I thought it might be interesting to share my experience and see if that sheds some light on this whole thing.

Speaking for myself, as well as other ENTJs I've known well, empathy is without question a learned skill for us. With Fi in the inferior position we are typically unaware of what we feel much less have an inkling as to the inner lives of those around us. This obviously creates problems that we become aware of quite early on. You learn very quickly that your own thresholds don't necessarily apply to others, and absent that as a starting point (and having a fairly strong inclination towards empiricism besides) the only way to understand how to deal with people is through experience.

I remember from a pretty early age that I would do what I thought of as "boundary testing". When I was dealing with someone, especially on a more personal basis, I would do little "test" to figure out what were and were not an acceptable range of interactions with that person. To an outside observer, this could be construed as "fucking with someone", and on a certain level they're not incorrect. I admit to having done what I recognize now to be some pretty fucked up things to other folks more or less in the name of Science. Over time, however, I learned that when I did such and such a thing it would cause someone to become upset, or such and such another thing and they would be happy. Because people even now are effectively black boxes to me, I still do some tests to understand what kind of person I'm dealing with, and gather a rough approximation of what their individual thresholds might be. It's thankfully a bit more subtle, but it's still part of the interaction.

Now, obviously, there's two related points that go along with this basic idea. The first of those is that while most ENTJs engage in some form of boundary testing or another, they're not necessarily going to take responsibility for when things go too far and someone ends up genuinely hurt. The party line of the average ENTJ is, "Your feelings are not my responsibility." The logic there being regardless of what I've done to you, you can control the response that you have to that interaction, or (more to the point) you can put your big boy pants on and shelve your shit like I do. There's a lot of immaturity in that attitude, obviously. But the alternative is actual introspection and really owning not only the fact that your present way of doing business is sub-optimal not only for the other party but in how you deal with your own shit.

ENTJs are not into the whole "being wrong" thing. We go to great lengths to have our shit together, and having to cop to a flaw...Well, let's just say that the whole notion of "falling on one's sword" was a house that baby Fi built.

The second idea that I want to emphasize is that there's a kind of innocence when some ENTJs overstep. We're not geared towards people. We're geared towards effective problems solving. There are times when in our zeal to execute on the Prime Directive we will toss the baby right out with the bathwater, and be like, "Yeah, fuck that baby." And sleep pretty awesomely that night afterwards. Again, this goes to the idea that if you accept the premise that empathy is the province of inferior Fi, then going towards the place where we can perceive people (including ourselves) as intrinsically valuable feels like death.

No, seriously.

The best I can describe it, going towards Fi feels like you don't know what's going to happen, but you will in fact die if you allow yourself to be that vulnerable. Some get over the bitchassness and manage to anyways, but some never do. For me, my first step towards embracing that vulnerability was the recognition that regardless of how capable I might be, if I wasn't able to work with others I would never get anything done. Naturally, the problem with seeking to cultivate genuine empathy is that you may in fact succeed. I made the mistake of going full retard, and now have an abundance of feels. It is gross. I don't like to talk about it. But it is what it is. I will never be as naturally attuned to those around me as an NFP, nor have the innate poise and social confidence of an NFJ, but damned if I haven't found a greater depth, fulfillment and richness in my relationships with others as a result of learning to be more open.

Either way, the point that I'm trying to make with sharing this with you is that ENTJs are coming from a much different place than most people. Our greatest strength ironically carries within it the seeds of our most self-destructive tendencies. We are not out to get you. Unfortunately, most of us don't really care too much about you one way or another. The best advice I can give to those who've had negative experiences with an ENTJ is to be direct and hold your ground when they're giving you a hard time. Ask them flat out what evidence they have for whatever bullshit aspersions they're casting your way. If they have grounds for what they're saying, then it gives them a chance to slow their roll, hear you out, and engage from a more reasonable place than one of YOU ARE RUINING EVERYTHING AND IF I DO NOT DESTROY YOU THEN TERRIBLE BUT HERETO UNKNOWN THINGS WILL OCCUR TO US ALL. And if they're just being dicks, then you basically calling on them for wasting everyone's time with bullshit will make them respect you. (ENTJs are basically all bratty, power bottoms, anyways. We like it when you knock us around a bit. It makes us feel secure and freer to let go and stuff. :3 Warning: Test this at your own hazard, tho...)

Anyways, that's all I got. Hopefully this is helpful to someone.
 

violet_crown

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I was working in part from one of Wind Up Rex's posts, quoted below. I put my own spin on her thoughts, but she kinda did say those things.

That's not to put Rex down in any way. She was blunt, and I respect that.

Your interpretation of my contribution and my actual contribution are not the same thing. In fact, you've misconstrued what I've said pretty badly at this point.
 

Tennessee Jed

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Your interpretation of my contribution and my actual contribution are not the same thing. In fact, you've misconstrued what I've said pretty badly at this point.

As I said, I just used your words as a starting point; I put my own spin on things. I draw different conclusions based on my own experience of Te-Doms. I don't expect us to agree.
 

EJCC

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To answer the title of the thread: One kind of has to define bullying. Fe-Doms are sometimes considered to be the bullies of the MBTI if one defines bullying in terms of setting rules and being oppressive about them. Whereas Te-Doms can come across as bullying in terms of being mean and rolling over people to get what they want. Because of T.

Anyway, this is about ENTJs. So let me take what Fia said as my starting point.



IMO, Te-doms are never going to see themselves this way. Te-Doms can say, "Well, it's just button-pushing and boundary-testing. It's nothing personal; we don't even feel emotions or care about you personally." But it's easy for non-Te-Doms to see Te-Doms as pushy and passive-aggressive from the outside. Button-pushing and boundary-testing doesn't happen in a vacuum. The person on the receiving end had something that the ENTJ wanted, and they got knocked down and steamrolled as a result. They got specifically targeted; as a result, it feels personal to them.

Anyway. How to reconcile these two viewpoints: Boundary-testing vs. bullying and (passive-) agression? IMO, the difference lies in how well the Te-Dom recognizes and observes basic principles, limits, and personal boundaries.

For example, I love Te-Doms who have spent their lives in the business/corporate world. They get it. You set a boundary, let them know that there are going to be repercussions if they cross that boundary, and they hear you. They back off and respect those limits that you set. The working world has conditioned them to respect certain principles. So the rest of us get to enjoy the brilliance of these particular Te-Doms without getting steamrolled on those few points or in those few areas that are really important to us.

OTOH, I hate Te-Doms who haven't spent much time in the business/corporate world. I notice that they often don't respect other people's limits. You say to them, "Look, this thing is important to me. DON'T FUCK WITH IT!" And they respond, "Yes, I understand, that's important to you, I won't mess with it." But a week later, they're surreptitiously pushing at you, trying to get that thing from you. And if you challenge them on it, they'll just act like YOU'RE the one being paranoid, tell you they have no interest in that thing, and then a week later they'll try pushing at you again in an even more devious fashion.

I think that the latter case is where Te-Doms can come off as passive-aggressive, devious, competitive, and all that other stuff. IOW, most or even all Te-Doms freely admit to button-pushing and boundary-testing. But it can turn infantile when it's done without limits and respect for the rights of others. At such times, this is where Te-Doms get seen in a negative light, even though they're just doing their Te-Dom thing.

BTW, the same can be said for any other cognitive function. For example, I'm an INFP; personally I hate it when other INFPs act infantile and crusade for their own values as though no other ethics or value systems can possibly be valid except theirs. They get on their high horse, they shame other people, they bully people, and so on. So by extension this same principle (lack of respect for people's personal boundaries resulting in bullying) can apply to any other function as well.

But the discussion here is about ENTJs, so I'm picking on them at the moment. Also, there's something about the nature of Te-Dom in particular (boundary-testing) which can arguably put Te-Doms directly at odds with the concept of respecting other people's principles, limits, and personal boundaries to a greater degree than some other functions.
Interesting that you use the word "boundary". I would never have even thought of this as a "boundary", and I doubt most ExTJs would (at least before really learning to understand FPs), because for Te, facts are facts -- it's not personal. And if it is, then it shouldn't be. Usually when someone steps on one of my Fi boundaries, I end up registering it as "me being too sensitive", after the fact. Or I learn that they were right all along, and I'm embarrassed that 1) I ever held the previous opinion, 2) that I cared so much about that previous opinion, and 3) that I reacted so "immaturely" under pressure.

Note the two types of projection here:

1) projection by the ExTJ of all Fi as being like inferior Fi -- as mentioned by [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] and also by Naomi Quenk, who I cited earlier
2) projection of dominant Te as INTENTIONALLY boundary-pushing and manipulative by various Fe and Fi users in this thread

The first projection implies that all expression of feeling is "weak" or "immature", which is incorrect (and which ExTJs learn is incorrect with time and maturity). The second projection implies that ExTJs associate what they do with the feelings that will result from what they do, which is also incorrect. For example, fia's posts implied that ExTJs see their actions as manipulative and controversial/stress-inducing, and act on them anyway. Your post, if I understand it correctly, implies that ExTJs understand and respect the fact that your sense of values and the facts behind the values you hold are completely 100% intertwined -- when ExTJs, IME, hold their values so close to their chests, and so hidden away, that it becomes easier for them to separate facts from values (for better or worse). They see your reaction to trying to argue with you, and they don't necessarily think "I should leave this alone" -- they think "maybe if I go at this a different way, they won't get so offended". Because as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, the goal is to get you to change your mind. Still seeing this as an impersonal debate. I'd suspect that the ExTJs in the business world who go easier on you, do so because they have more experience with the Fe-style diplomacy that's so common in the business world. They've learned to self-censor, out of necessity.

As I said, I just used your words as a starting point; I put my own spin on things. I draw different conclusions based on my own experience of Te-Doms. I don't expect us to agree.
In fairness, I'm pretty sure a Te-dom is going to know what a Te-dom is thinking better than an Fi-dom would.
 

violet_crown

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As I said, I just used your words as a starting point; I put my own spin on things. I draw different conclusions based on my own experience of Te-Doms. I don't expect us to agree.

It's pretty unfair to say that you're in dialogue with anything I've said to this point if you didn't actually bother to read it, nor take it into consideration with respect to what you might have already experienced. You're welcome to any opinion you might have, but leave me out of it.
 

Tennessee Jed

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It's pretty unfair to say that you're in dialogue with anything I've said to this point if you didn't actually bother to read it, nor take it into consideration with respect to what you might have already experienced. You're welcome to any opinion you might have, but leave me out of it.

Alright, fine. Zero-11 was right. You never said anything like those things, and no Te-Dom would ever say those things. Furthermore, I misinterpreted everything you said.

I'm still happy to stand by the things that I said based on my own personal experience alone. I have a lot of experience of Te-Doms, including some good friends among them. Henceforth I'll make my arguments based on personal experience and leave you and your posts out of my argument entirely. I apologize for the rough handling and misinterpretation.
 

Tennessee Jed

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Interesting that you use the word "boundary". I would never have even thought of this as a "boundary", and I doubt most ExTJs would (at least before really learning to understand FPs), because for Te, facts are facts -- it's not personal. And if it is, then it shouldn't be. Usually when someone steps on one of my Fi boundaries, I end up registering it as "me being too sensitive", after the fact. Or I learn that they were right all along, and I'm embarrassed that 1) I ever held the previous opinion, 2) that I cared so much about that previous opinion, and 3) that I reacted so "immaturely" under pressure.

Note the two types of projection here:

1) projection by the ExTJ of all Fi as being like inferior Fi -- as mentioned by [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] and also by Naomi Quenk, who I cited earlier
2) projection of dominant Te as INTENTIONALLY boundary-pushing and manipulative by various Fe and Fi users in this thread

The first projection implies that all expression of feeling is "weak" or "immature", which is incorrect (and which ExTJs learn is incorrect with time and maturity). The second projection implies that ExTJs associate what they do with the feelings that will result from what they do, which is also incorrect. For example, fia's posts implied that ExTJs see their actions as manipulative and controversial/stress-inducing, and act on them anyway. Your post, if I understand it correctly, implies that ExTJs understand and respect the fact that your sense of values and the facts behind the values you hold are completely 100% intertwined -- when ExTJs, IME, hold their values so close to their chests, and so hidden away, that it becomes easier for them to separate facts from values (for better or worse). They see your reaction to trying to argue with you, and they don't necessarily think "I should leave this alone" -- they think "maybe if I go at this a different way, they won't get so offended". Because as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, the goal is to get you to change your mind. Still seeing this as an impersonal debate. I'd suspect that the ExTJs in the business world who go easier on you, do so because they have more experience with the Fe-style diplomacy that's so common in the business world. They've learned to self-censor, out of necessity.


In fairness, I'm pretty sure a Te-dom is going to know what a Te-dom is thinking better than an Fi-dom would.

Just quickly: Fia was more about projections and reactions. By contrast, I'm talking more about the contrast between immaturity and maturity. Immature versions of any personality type tend to be abrasive, whereas mature versions of those same types have the rough edges sanded off. So I'm just saying that the immature version of Te-Dom probably merits to some extent the bad things that get said about Te-Doms (bullying, etc.), whereas the mature version of Te-Dom tends to be more respectful of things like limits and personal boundaries. Just like the immature and mature versions of every other type.
 

EJCC

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Just quickly: Fia was more about projections and reactions. By contrast, I'm talking more about the contrast between maturity and immaturity. Mature versions of any type tend to have the rough edges sanded off; whereas immature versions of any type tend to be abrasive. So I'm just saying that the immature version of Te-Dom probably merits all the bad things said about Te-Doms (bullying, etc.), whereas the mature version of Te-Dom tends to be more respectful of things like limits and personal boundaries. Just like the mature version of every other type.
Just because you weren't talking about projecting, doesn't mean you weren't projecting as well. Read my post again.

Edit:
Alright, fine. Zero-11 was right. You never said anything like those things, and no Te-Dom would ever say those things. Furthermore, I misinterpreted everything you said.

I'm still happy to stand by the things that I said based on my own personal experience alone. I have a lot of experience of Te-Doms, including some good friends among them. Henceforth I'll make my arguments based on personal experience and leave you and your posts out of my argument entirely. I apologize for the rough handling and misinterpretation.
^ Missed this -- glad to see you changed your mind, and see that you projected/misinterpreted.
 

prplchknz

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projection is interesting we can accuse anyone of it whether or not it's true it allows us to ignore our blind spots and make it the other person's fault. not saying it is or isn't just think about it.
 

Tennessee Jed

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Just because you weren't talking about projecting, doesn't mean you weren't projecting as well. Read my post again.

Edit:

^ Missed this -- glad to see you changed your mind, and see that you projected/misinterpreted.

As you please.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Complete information: 2. The Extraverted Thinking Type (scroll down)
The descriptions of every type include strengths and weaknesses, so these are consistently a tough read for all of the types. Jung also makes it clear that it varies between individuals. The description of the dominant function includes most of the positive explanation of each type. For my type the inferior Se is where most of the criticism lies.

Carl Jung said:
...Since feelings are the first to oppose and contradict [p. 438] the rigid intellectual formula, they are affected first this conscious inhibition, and upon them the most intense repression falls. No function can be entirely eliminated -- it can only be greatly distorted. In so far as feelings allow themselves to be arbitrarily shaped and subordinated, they have to support the intellectual conscious attitude and adapt themselves to its aims. Only to a certain degree, however, is this possible; a part of the feeling remains insubordinate, and therefore must be repressed. Should the repression succeed, it disappears from consciousness and proceeds to unfold a subconscious activity, which runs counter to conscious aims, even producing effects whose causation is a complete enigma to the individual. For example, conscious altruism, often of an extremely high order, may be crossed by a secret self-seeking, of which the individual is wholly unaware, and which impresses intrinsically unselfish actions with the stamp of selfishness. Purely ethical aims may lead the individual into critical situations, which sometimes have more than a semblance of being decided by quite other than ethical motives. There are guardians of public morals or voluntary rescue-workers who suddenly find themselves in deplorably compromising situations, or in dire need of rescue. Their resolve to save often leads them to employ means which only tend to precipitate what they most desire to avoid. There are extraverted idealists, whose desire to advance the salvation of man is so consuming that they will not shrink from any lying and dishonest means in the pursuit of their ideal. There are a few painful examples in science where investigators of the highest esteem, from a profound conviction of the truth and general validity of their formula, have not scrupled to falsify evidence in favour of their ideal. This is sanctioned by the formula; the end justifieth the means. Only an inferior feeling-function, operating seductively [p. 439] and unconsciously, could bring about such aberrations in otherwise reputable men.

The inferiority of feeling in this type manifests itself also in other ways. In so far as it corresponds with the dominating positive formula, the conscious attitude becomes more or less impersonal, often, indeed, to such a degree that a very considerable wrong is done to personal interests. When the conscious attitude is extreme, all personal considerations recede from view, even those which concern the individual's own person. His health is neglected, his social position deteriorates, often the most vital interests of his family are violated -- they are wronged morally and financially, even their bodily health is made to suffer -- all in the service of the ideal. At all events personal sympathy with others must be impaired, unless they too chance to be in the service of the same formula. Hence it not infrequently happens that his immediate family circle, his own children for instance, only know such a father as a cruel tyrant, whilst the outer world resounds with the fame of his humanity. Not so much in spite of as because of the highly impersonal character of the conscious attitude, the unconscious feelings are highly personal and oversensitive, giving rise to certain secret prejudices, as, for instance, a decided readiness to misconstrue any objective opposition to his formula as personal ill-will, or a constant tendency to make negative suppositions regarding the qualities of others in order to invalidate their arguments beforehand-in defence, naturally, of his own susceptibility. As a result of this unconscious sensitiveness, his expression and tone frequently becomes sharp, pointed, aggressive, and insinuations multiply. The feelings have an untimely and halting character, which is always a mark of the inferior function. Hence arises a pronounced tendency to resentment. However generous the individual sacrifice [p. 440] to the intellectual goal may be, the feelings are correspondingly petty, suspicious, crossgrained, and conservative. Everything new that is not already contained formula is viewed through a veil of unconscious and is judged accordingly. It happened only in middle of last century that a certain physician, famed his humanitarianism, threatened to dismiss an assistant for daring to use a thermometer, because the formula decreed that fever shall be recognized by the pulse. There are, of course, a host of similar examples.
 

Xander

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To literally respond to the title I would estimate that an ENTJ would bully if they felt threatened and incapable of control but were in a position where authority was available to them.

For example, a poor ENTJ as a manager would bully if a subordinate was questioning their procedures and they couldn't understand the criticism enough to control the change but knew the criticism was correct. Then they might bully to maintain the status quo so that they still felt on control of their environment.

A good ENTJ manager may be seen as bullying due to the direct style they tend to have and how they almost lift and shift people to fit their design. However the ENTJ there would almost be oblivious to how they might be perceived as they themselves prefer straight talking and so if the person who felt bullied was cowed and didn't express their concerns in a direct manner then the ENTJ would be none the wiser.

Bit thought tied but hopefully that makes English in the end.
 

GarrotTheThief

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To literally respond to the title I would estimate that an ENTJ would bully if they felt threatened and incapable of control but were in a position where authority was available to them.

For example, a poor ENTJ as a manager would bully if a subordinate was questioning their procedures and they couldn't understand the criticism enough to control the change but knew the criticism was correct. Then they might bully to maintain the status quo so that they still felt on control of their environment.

A good ENTJ manager may be seen as bullying due to the direct style they tend to have and how they almost lift and shift people to fit their design. However the ENTJ there would almost be oblivious to how they might be perceived as they themselves prefer straight talking and so if the person who felt bullied was cowed and didn't express their concerns in a direct manner then the ENTJ would be none the wiser.

Bit thought tied but hopefully that makes English in the end.


This is a good example. I think an ENTJ would bully in other situations too though. I remember reading that ENTJ's suffer, more than any other type, displacement. Because they are so in "control" of their emotions, or FI inferior, they tend to hold back, when being yelled at work, for example, and tend to take it out on their loved ones. This is also the key characteristic of a narcissist. As an ENTJ I did not know myself that I displaced but I Do. A lot of people do but an ENTJ h as a particular prolbem with it at work.

IT is because they see the logical weaknesses of emotion that they repress it...but emotion is needed for boundries. We need to whine sometimes in the places we think we should not and vice versa...without emotional devices we have no way to build emotional boundries. I've learned this but most entj's will never learn it and hence continue to scream and shout at their loved ones while they nestle the foot of their boss in hopes of that next salary jump - no joke eNTJ's make a lot of money.

This is why they are known to have explosive anger.

One mistake I might be making here is that most entj's on the net might actually just be narcissists misrepresenting real entj's....but who knows...I Can't tell from a message board interaction...all I know is that on other message boards, not here, I have come across entj's with explosive anger, who bully, and troll...and it is not just me who thinks so...

go on the reddit forum for entj's and you will see other entj's there talking about forums and entj's bullies too.

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Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
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So is Carl Jung completely irrelevant to this discussion?
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
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Speaking for myself, as well as other ENTJs I've known well, empathy is without question a learned skill for us. With Fi in the inferior position we are typically unaware of what we feel much less have an inkling as to the inner lives of those around us. This obviously creates problems that we become aware of quite early on. You learn very quickly that your own thresholds don't necessarily apply to others, and absent that as a starting point (and having a fairly strong inclination towards empiricism besides) the only way to understand how to deal with people is through experience.

I remember from a pretty early age that I would do what I thought of as "boundary testing". When I was dealing with someone, especially on a more personal basis, I would do little "test" to figure out what were and were not an acceptable range of interactions with that person. To an outside observer, this could be construed as "fucking with someone", and on a certain level they're not incorrect. I admit to having done what I recognize now to be some pretty fucked up things to other folks more or less in the name of Science. Over time, however, I learned that when I did such and such a thing it would cause someone to become upset, or such and such another thing and they would be happy. Because people even now are effectively black boxes to me, I still do some tests to understand what kind of person I'm dealing with, and gather a rough approximation of what their individual thresholds might be. It's thankfully a bit more subtle, but it's still part of the interaction.
To what extent to you think all of this applies to INTJs as well - or more specifically, what distinctions do you see between the kind of testing we do and the ENTJ variety, and the way empathy, or lack thereof, influences our interactions. People use the word "intimidating" in connection with INTJs from time to time, but I don't see "bullying" much. What is the distinction?
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
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Just quickly: Fia was more about projections and reactions. By contrast, I'm talking more about the contrast between immaturity and maturity. Immature versions of any personality type tend to be abrasive, whereas mature versions of those same types have the rough edges sanded off. So I'm just saying that the immature version of Te-Dom probably merits to some extent the bad things that get said about Te-Doms (bullying, etc.), whereas the mature version of Te-Dom tends to be more respectful of things like limits and personal boundaries. Just like the immature and mature versions of every other type.
I am going to correct this meme that is being thrown around, so people get the correct psychological terminology.

There is a subjective element to my posts, which I have tried to state clearly in those same posts. It is not projection, it is transference. I have been personally hurt by Ti-doms and Te-doms and am transferring some of that frustration into what I'm trying to use as an abstract context, although some people are taking it personally. I do not know any individual Te-dom on this forum very well, so what I say may not apply to the individual. I am talking about the Te and/or Ti-doms that have exhibited behavior and some of the underlying subconscious psychological issues that drive it. What I have said is not at odds with Carl Jung's descriptions. To the extent that it is, anyone is free to point it out to me. I am not attacking anyone personally and have tried to say quite a few positive things about dominant personality types, including talking about the ones I admire. The sledge-hammer comment was negative, but some T-doms do that. If that statement hurts a reader, then it is not directed at them. It would mostly apply to the ones who use over-force to get their point across with complete disregard for consequences.
 
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