[INTP] How common are INTP 9s?

[Zarathustra]

9 has the reputation of being an ambiverted type though.

Not really, imo.

People usually think of IFs when they think of 9s.

They're not thought of as anywhere as ambiverted as 6s.

They do integrate into extroversion, tho (3EE).

And the disintegrate into ambiversion (6SS).

 

[011235813]

Not really, imo.

People usually think of IFs when they think of 9s.

They're not thought of as anywhere as ambiverted as 6s.

They do integrate into extroversion, tho (3EE).

And the disintegrate into ambiversion (6SS).

Yup, 6s are way more ambiverted, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

I just hear the "ambiverted" label a lot when it comes to 9, especially while explaining why an introvert comes across as not being so introverted. I'm very introverted, which is why this hasn't ever resonated with me.

Also, I think Naranjo correlated 9 with cyclothymia? I don't think I'm making this up (though I might be, can't find it right now.)

 

[Zarathustra]

e6? I'm not so sure about that, but I'm glad you have at least some significant impression on me besides being a pretentious douchebag

I think of things in multifaceted ways, my friend.

As for MBTI again, I know I at least use a lot of Ne. When I write I notice I don't pay attention to one single stream of thought, it tends to bounce around and broaden the context with new loosely related ideas. I occasionally use Ni but it doesn't feel natural at all so that would rule out xSxP. I scored higher on Te than Ti too, so I can definitely see xNFP, more so INFP.

Yeah, I don't really question INFP.

I appreciate you've had some thought about my enneagram, but what is it that makes me seem like a e6? I own several books, I think three on the ennegram and I don't relate too much to it. I don't doubt it, just not certain of it. I'd also like to know whether you think I'm a 6w7 or 6w5.

I know this wasn't to me, but, just understand, I didn't identify with most the enneagram 6 descriptions either.

Which books do you have?

Are you aware that e6 is considered the most varied of all the types?

As in, within e6, there is a whole lot of variety -- with some types being almost opposites of the others (they share a common core, tho).

(The reason they end up/seem like almost polar opposites is because of how the different subtypes react to that common core)

6s are also one of the two types who tend to have the most difficulty figuring out their e-type (the other being 9s)

Your e-type would most certainly be counterphobic.

There are then two different strains of counterphobic 6s (the third strain/subtype being phobic, which you are not).

I've felt this way for a pretty long time -- never thought e4 or e9 made sense for you, and a lot of your behavior resembles my own.

(Don't think that when I wrote that bit about you, I didn't also see myself in the description)

(And the way you responded to it... straight out of my playbook... as in, to. a. tee.)

Anyway, parts of 'Personality Types' be Riso & Hudson have some good e6 information.

(Although they do too much switching between phobic and counterphobic types)

(And do so without dilineating them well at all, nor addressing all three subtypes of 6s)

The best places for information on 6s are Naranjo's 'Character and Neurosis' and Armando Molina's 'Our Ways: Values & Character'

The former is, as you probably know (and might already own), the Enneagram Bible, and the latter is, imo, the best book out there.

The former you can get anywhere, including Amazon; the latter you have to order from a Dutch publisher for ~$50.

 

[Evo]

Yup.

It's 9II.

I'm pretty sure I know an ENTP 9, tho.

Yea, I know an ESFJ 9. I was a little surprised though when I found out his type. But it makes sense imo, with 9 being the "peacemaker" an all. They share introverted qualities at least. You know, not siding with one person or the other overtly (shows reflection,) not being the overt leader (not necessarily leading, or following) stuff like that....

And re: ambivert: I think they are more ambivalent when it comes to making decisions....not where thier energy goes.

 

[Zarathustra]

Yup, 6s are way more ambiverted, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

I just hear the "ambiverted" label a lot when it comes to 9, especially while explaining why an introvert comes across as not being so introverted. I'm very introverted, which is why this hasn't ever resonated with me.

Also, I think Naranjo correlated 9 with cyclothymia? I don't think I'm making this up (though I might be, can't find it right now.)

I believe I did see something not too long ago about Naranjo associating 9s with ambiversion, actually.

This is a falsehood, tho.

On the triangle of the enneagram, there is one point that is extroverted, one point that is ambiverted, and one point that is introverted.

3EE
6SS
9II

And, well, 9 is the introverted point.

(don't discount the integration to extroversion and disintegration to ambiversion bit, tho: they're the only type on the triangle like that)

(as in, of all the types on the triangle, their integration and disintegration leads to the greatest degree of extroverting)

 

[Eugene Watson VIII]

I think of things in multifaceted ways, my friend.



Yeah, I don't really question INFP.



I know this wasn't to me, but, just understand, I didn't identify with most the enneagram 6 descriptions either.

Which books do you have?

Are you aware that e6 is considered the most varied of all the types?

As in, within e6, there is a whole lot of variety -- with some types being almost opposites of the others (they share a common core, tho).

(The reason they end up/seem like almost polar opposites is because of how the different subtypes react to that common core)

6s are also one of the two types who tend to have the most difficulty figuring out their e-type (the other being 9s)

Your e-type would most certainly be counterphobic.

There are then two different strains of counterphobic 6s (the third strain/subtype being phobic, which you are not).

I've felt this way for a pretty long time -- never thought e4 or e9 made sense for you, and a lot of your behavior resembles my own.

(Don't think that when I wrote that bit about you, I didn't also see myself in the description)

(And the way you responded to it... straight out of my playbook... as in, to. a. tee.)

Anyway, parts of 'Personality Types' be Riso & Hudson have some good e6 information.

(Although they do too much switching between phobic and counterphobic types)

(And do so without dilineating them well at all, nor addressing all three subtypes of 6s)

The best places for information on 6s are Naranjo's 'Character and Neurosis' and Armando Molina's 'Our Ways: Values & Character'

The former is, as you probably know (and might already own), the Enneagram Bible, and the latter is, imo, the best book out there.

The former you can get anywhere, including Amazon; the latter you have to order from a Dutch publisher for ~$50.

Yes I have the Riso and Hudson book, The enneagram made easy by Renee Baron and Elizabeth Wagele and The Complete Enneagram by Beatrice Chestnut. I also own Please Understand Me II. I will read more into type 6 and see what I come out with. I'm no enneagram expert, that's why I am so open-minded about it mostly, so I'll have to really delve into it.

How did you figure out you were a 6? I also realize badger055 brought up the issue that so many people get coined as e6 so I'm a little biased, but I'll do some research.

 

[INTP]

[MENTION=9486]gromit[/MENTION] , [MENTION=20757]solipsists[/MENTION] and others

Here is what enneagram institute says about 9's:

The personality type Nine corresponds to Jung's introverted sensation type.(Si dom) Jung describes what we would regard as average to unhealthy Nines, people who maintain their peacefulness and connection with others not as they are, but through an idealization of them. The other person may feel "devalued," as Jung says, for the following reasons:

...he may be conspicuous for his calmness and passivity, or for his rational self-control [especially, for example, if the Nine has a One-wing]. This peculiarity, which often leads a superficial judgment astray, is really due to his unrelatedness to objects. Normally the object is not consciously devalued in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it and immediately replaced by a subjective reaction no longer related to the reality of the object. This naturally has the same effect as devaluation. Such a type can easily make one question why one should exist at all...

Seen from the outside, it looks as though the effect of the object did not penetrate into the subject at all. This impression is correct inasmuch as a subjective content does, in fact, intervene from the unconscious and intercept the effect of the object. The intervention may be so abrupt that the individual appears to be shielding himself directly from all objective influences... If the object is a person, he feels completely devalued, while the subject has an illusory conception of reality, which in pathological cases goes so far that he is no longer able to distinguish between the real object and the subjective perception... Such action has an illusory character unrelated to objective reality and is extremely disconcerting. It instantly reveals the reality-alienating subjectivity of this type. But when the influence of the object does not break through completely, it is met with well-intentioned neutrality, disclosing little sympathy yet constantly striving to soothe and adjust. The too low is raised a little, the too high is lowered, enthusiasm is damped down, extravagance restrained, and anything out of the ordinary reduced to the right formula—all this in order to keep the influence of the object within the necessary bounds. In this way the type becomes a menace to his environment because his total innocuousness is not altogether above suspicion. In that case he easily becomes a victim of the aggressiveness and domineeringness of others. Such men allow themselves to be abused and then take their revenge on the most unsuitable occasions with redoubled obtuseness and stubbornness. (C. G. Jung, Psychological Types, 396-397.)

And for 5's:

The basis of their orientation to the world is thinking; personality type Five corresponds to Jung's introverted thinking type.(INTP/ISTP)
"Introverted thinking is primarily oriented by the subjective factor....It does not lead from concrete experience back again to the object, but always to the subjective content. External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, though the introvert would often like to make his thinking appear so. It begins with the subject and leads back to the subject, far though it may range into the realm of actual reality....Facts are collected as evidence for a theory, never for their own sakes." (C. G. Jung, Psychological Types, 380.)

Although they correspond to Jung's introverted thinking type, Fives are perhaps more precisely characterized as a subjective thinking type because the aim of their thought is not always introverted (that is, directed toward themselves); rather, it is directed often outward toward the environment, which Fives want to understand so that they can be safer in it. The impetus for their thinking comes, as Jung says, from "the subjective factor," from their need to know about what lies outside themselves, as well as from their anxiety when they do not understand the environment. This is why thinking is the method Fives use both to fit into the world and, paradoxically, to defend themselves against it.

And if if the words from one of the most professional people in the field of enneagram is not enough, ill quote something about INTP explain:

"The INTP is above all a thinker and his inner (private) world is a place governed by a strong sense of logical structure. Every experience is to be rigorously analysed, the task of the INTP's mind is to fit each encountered idea or experience into a larger structure defined by logic. For here is the central goal of the INTP: to understand and seek truth."

Now if someone claims to be an INTP, but cannot agree with this description above, he simply is not an INTP. And if someone says that "yes this is me", but still says that he is enneagram 9, well he better look at other e types(what enneagram calls thinking triad which is 5, 6 and 7), since they fit much better to this sort of thinking personality.

Just like there is a dominant function in MBTI that doesent change, but from which we develop our whole self and which we learn to let go of to some degree and learn to use other functions aswell. There is similar idea in enneagram, there is one basic type that does not change, but we learn to integrate other types in us aswell(but we still are out basic type, just as we are our dominant function, even if some life circumstances leads us to act like some other type or function, we still are Ti dom or 5 deep down and that does not change according to MBTI or enneagram).
INTPs core type is in the thinking triad of enneagram, but some INTPs learn that with some situations it is more wise to act like a 9 would act for example, but this does not make the INTP a 9.

 

[Eugene Watson VIII]

[MENTION=9486]gromit[/MENTION] , [MENTION=20757]solipsists[/MENTION] and others

Here is what enneagram institute says about 9's:





And for 5's:




And if if the words from one of the most professional people in the field of enneagram is not enough, ill quote something about INTP explain:

"The INTP is above all a thinker and his inner (private) world is a place governed by a strong sense of logical structure. Every experience is to be rigorously analysed, the task of the INTP's mind is to fit each encountered idea or experience into a larger structure defined by logic. For here is the central goal of the INTP: to understand and seek truth."

Now if someone claims to be an INTP, but cannot agree with this description above, he simply is not an INTP. And if someone says that "yes this is me", but still says that he is enneagram 9, well he better look at other e types(what enneagram calls thinking triad which is 5, 6 and 7), since they fit much better to this sort of thinking personality.

Just like there is a dominant function in MBTI that doesent change, but from which we develop our whole self and which we learn to let go of to some degree and learn to use other functions aswell. There is similar idea in enneagram, there is one basic type that does not change, but we learn to integrate other types in us aswell(but we still are out basic type, just as we are our dominant function, even if some life circumstances leads us to act like some other type or function, we still are Ti about dom or 5 deep down and that does not change according to MBTI or enneagram).
INTPs core type is in the thinking triad of enneagram, but some INTPs learn that with some situations it is more wise to act like a 9 would act for example, but this does not make the INTP a 9.

What about all the INTP 9s and INFx 5s? I think that alone is evidence that thinkers don't always belong to the 'thinking triad' and that feelers don't always appear in the feeling or instinctive triad. I think what you're looking at is just highlighting certain MBTI types that commonly score as them. You said something about INTPs belonging to the thinking triad, and while I agree with 6 and 5, I don't see many 7s around. You would find more 9s than 7s.

I am just anticipating all the exceptions to your statement to come in and refute it. There are a lot of people on here that would disagree with you.

 

[INTP]

What about all the INTP 9s and INFx 5s? I think that alone is evidence that thinkers don't always belong to the 'thinking triad' and that feelers don't always appear in the feeling or instinctive triad. I think what you're looking at is just highlighting certain MBTI types that commonly score as them. You said something about INTPs belonging to the thinking triad, and while I agree with 6 and 5, I don't see many 7s around. You would find more 9s than 7s.

I am just anticipating all the exceptions to your statement to come in and refute it. There are a lot of people on here that would disagree with you.

Havent you noticed that so so many people in typology forums are mistyped because they dont understand type or dont know themselves well enough?

I dont think 7 fits very well to INTPs either, i didnt say that INTP can be any of the types in thinking triad, i said that INTPs core type is in thinking triad. How can one be a thinker at core, but then again not be a thinker in core? Being a Ti dom means that you are a thinker at core and 9 is not a thinker at core. Ti dom can learn to act like 9(this is what enneagram encourages people to do), but it doesent mean that if a person learns to act like 9, he then becomes a 9. Just like if an INTP learns to use his Si and Fe, and notices that this way of functioning in some situations is better than TiNe, or he finds himself in tough situation in life and dwells deeper into his unconscious acting from his unconscious attitudes(namely Fe and Si to some extend), it doesent make him an ISFJ.

Here is some basics of the structure of the system(and what i want to point out there is the basic type, as its most relevant to what im trying to say): http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp

Just like people in the field of MBTI say that dominant function develops first and that we grow from there while remaining true to our actual type, the guys at enneagram say the same thing about basic type. The difference really is that while MBTI/Jung says that there is one type that we are and that we develop functions other than our dominant, but the dominant still remains dominant, enneagram says that there is a basic type in all of us from which we develop other types in ourselves, but the basic type remains the same.

Here is a lot of reasons why someone might mistype himself in enneagram http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misid/

As i mentioned INTP can develop his 9(like he can develop his SiFe), but his basic type cant be 9 because it contradicts his MBTI type.

INTP and basic type of 9 are mutually exclusive, i dont know how else to explain this anymore and i dont understand why people dont see this(maybe its the lack of information or lack of thinking, i dunno, but i have given all the necessary information and explanations that is needed to explain this).

 

[Eugene Watson VIII]

Havent you noticed that so so many people in typology forums are mistyped because they dont understand type or dont know themselves well enough?

I dont think 7 fits very well to INTPs either, i didnt say that INTP can be any of the types in thinking triad, i said that INTPs core type is in thinking triad. How can one be a thinker at core, but then again not be a thinker in core? Being a Ti dom means that you are a thinker at core and 9 is not a thinker at core. Ti dom can learn to act like 9(this is what enneagram encourages people to do), but it doesent mean that if a person learns to act like 9, he then becomes a 9. Just like if an INTP learns to use his Si and Fe, and notices that this way of functioning in some situations is better than TiNe, or he finds himself in tough situation in life and dwells deeper into his unconscious acting from his unconscious attitudes(namely Fe and Si to some extend), it doesent make him an ISFJ.

Here is some basics of the structure of the system(and what i want to point out there is the basic type, as its most relevant to what im trying to say): http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp

Just like people in the field of MBTI say that dominant function develops first and that we grow from there while remaining true to our actual type, the guys at enneagram say the same thing about basic type. The difference really is that while MBTI/Jung says that there is one type that we are and that we develop functions other than our dominant, but the dominant still remains dominant, enneagram says that there is a basic type in all of us from which we develop other types in ourselves, but the basic type remains the same.

Here is a lot of reasons why someone might mistype himself in enneagram http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misid/

As i mentioned INTP can develop his 9(like he can develop his SiFe), but his basic type cant be 9 because it contradicts his MBTI type.

INTP and basic type of 9 are mutually exclusive, i dont know how else to explain this anymore and i dont understand why people dont see this(maybe its the lack of information or lack of thinking, i dunno, but i have given all the necessary information and explanations that is needed to explain this).

I see exactly what you're saying, sorry for the misinterpretations too. But I just think that there are too many people who contradict that rule. Maybe you're right, an INTP is a thinker, obviously, and that enneagram 9s belong to NFs and some xSFJs. But there are just so many exceptions out there, and it's not like we can debunk each one. I would say there are probably more mistyped INTP 9s than actual INTP 9s, but I'm willing to believe they exist. ISTPs are very closely related and can score as 9w8s, so it just seems futile arguing that INTPs can't be 9s either. I would agree 9w8s would probably be non-existent, but there's notorious 9w1s like Abraham Lincoln and from what speculation I've seen, Jeff Bridges too.

My OP was originally meant to be enquiring on behalf of finding out whether I was INTP or not, which I don't think is true, just a bunch of results from what the internet told me to be or somethin'.

Now that I think about it, I havn't actually seen a single enneatype 6 INTP on TypC.

 

[Rampant]

It's tough to say. On the one hand, INTP are behind the scenes in interaction style which meshes well with the 9's disposition, and it's possible more INTPs are 9s than they realize due to them over-identifying with the intellectualism being Ti-dom can cause, and attributing this to being a 5. On the other hand, 5s also have "will" problems (they feel "no" is outside of them, not in their control) and can feel like the 9's fluidity is something they possess. But I would say a 5 to 9 mistyping is far less common than 9 to 5.

I do think there are more INTP 9s than people expect.

 

[Kasper]

I think that if someone claims to be an INTP and 9, he is mistyped.

IxxP are the most common types of 9s.

So no.

I suspect the issue is your understanding of the enneagram as how one processes things does not impact motivations/fears etc, there are trends however any combination is theoretically possible and in the specific scenario of INTP 9, it exists.

The feeling function has nothing at all to do with enneagram 9, just as the thinking function is not connected with enneagram 5, stereotypes like that are what leads to mistyping.

Yup.

It's 9II.

I'm pretty sure I know an ENTP 9, tho.

Hi. Me too (and more than just me).

Dunno about the introverted v ambivert thing, we're a withdrawn type so it can seem introvert-ish, on the surface we move away, however underneath we move towards and seek connections so can seem more expansive and open.

9 screams F, more precisely(but not limited to) SFJ

Here is a 9 describing himself;

“I am aware of focusing on other people, wondering what they are like, how and where they live, etc. In a relationship with others, I often give up my own agenda in favor of the other person’s. I have to be on guard about giving in to other’s demands and discounting my own legitimate needs.”

The wording of one 9 explaining their own take on their type is not a decent way to gain understanding on a type, and to say type 9 screams F shows you have no idea what the motivations of a 9 actually are. As a NT and a 9 I am not a unicorn, we exist, hell the only NT 9 combination I haven't seen is ENTJ 9.

 

[INTP]

IxxP are the most common types of 9s.

So no.

I suspect the issue is your understanding of the enneagram as how one processes things does not impact motivations/fears etc, there are trends however any combination is theoretically possible and in the specific scenario of INTP 9, it exists.

The feeling function has nothing at all to do with enneagram 9, just as the thinking function is not connected with enneagram 5, stereotypes like that are what leads to mistyping.

I guess you know better than the guys at enneagram institute :

The personality type Nine corresponds to Jung's introverted sensation type.

The basis of their orientation to the world is thinking; personality type Five corresponds to Jung's introverted thinking type.

And its not only this, i explained reasons in much depth on this topic and you can read what i said earlier, i cba to write it again.

 

[Kasper]

I guess you know better than the guys at enneagram institute :

Attempts to link enneagram to cognitive functions is a concept that does not cross over into reality, I do not agree with the options that Jung or Naranjo offer even if I can appreciate why they link them. MBTI is like the hardware, it gives you the cognitive functions and how things are processed, Enneagram is like the software, it gives the motivations that lead to behaviours, they are two different things.

If your main/sole source of understanding is the Enneagram Institute, then that's your issue, I do not consider it a poor resource for what it is, however it is pretty surface. My suggestion if you are interested in understanding the system is to get some Palmer, Maitri or Naranjo, hell even some Riso and Hudson would give a better base than EI. Reading type descriptions on enneagram is like using MBTI without cognitive functions, it's pretty words with no reasons for why they are put together as they are, enneagram is about the motivations and fears.

"Head type" is not synonymous with thinker, the wording is probably what trips you up, but basic math should show you there is a problem here; MBTI is divided between T and F, enneagram has head, heart and gut, they are not supposed to correlate or no one would be a gut type. Head types have a common issue of anxiety, something often precipitated by overthinking, however there are plenty of ExFP 7s out there so it's clearly not about having a dom/aux thinking function. Meanwhile ENTJs with their Te lead are commonly 8s, a gut type. It really should be simple to see your basic premise is flawed.

A NT who is a 9 would look pretty different to one who is a 5, about the only cross-over is both are withdrawn types. Your average INTP stereotype would be an enneagram 5 though as it is most common.

 

[INTP]

Attempts to link enneagram to cognitive functions is a concept that does not cross over into reality, I do not agree with the options that Jung or Naranjo offer even if I can appreciate why they link them. MBTI is like the hardware, it gives you the cognitive functions and how things are processed, Enneagram is like the software, it gives the motivations that lead to behaviours, they are two different things.

If your main/sole source of understanding is the Enneagram Institute, then that's your issue, I do not consider it a poor resource for what it is, however it is pretty surface. My suggestion if you are interested in understanding the system is to get some Palmer, Maitri or Naranjo, hell even some Riso and Hudson would give a better base than EI. Reading type descriptions on enneagram is like using MBTI without cognitive functions, it's pretty words with no reasons for why they are put together as they are, enneagram is about the motivations and fears.

"Head type" is not synonymous with thinker, the wording is probably what trips you up, but basic math should show you there is a problem here; MBTI is divided between T and F, enneagram has head, heart and gut, they are not supposed to correlate or no one would be a gut type. Head types have a common issue of anxiety, something often precipitated by overthinking, however there are plenty of ExFP 7s out there so it's clearly not about having a dom/aux thinking function. Meanwhile ENTJs with their Te lead are commonly 8s, a gut type. It really should be simple to see your basic premise is flawed.

A NT who is a 9 would look pretty different to one who is a 5, about the only cross-over is both are withdrawn types. Your average INTP stereotype would be an enneagram 5 though as it is most common.

My main/sole source is not enneagram institutes website.

You say that you are 9 and you say that you know much about enneagram. It would be interesting to hear what you have to say about 9 as a core type, i dont need a long description, but some of the key points that say what sets people with their core type of 9 apart from others and some key points about the type. And i dont mean general 9 type description, i mean 9 as a core/basic/whatever type.
Then i can tell you how/why it doesent fit INTP if it doesent and maybe tell you some key points about INTPs. And yes, i will check what other 9 profiles say about the stuff that you are saying just to make sure that you arent trying to give a biased view of it

 

[Kasper]

My main/sole source is not enneagram institutes website.

You say that you are 9 and you say that you know much about enneagram. It would be interesting to hear what you have to say about 9 as a core type, i dont need a long description, but some of the key points that say what sets people with their core type of 9 apart from others and some key points about the type. And i dont mean general 9 type description, i mean 9 as a core/basic/whatever type.
Then i can tell you how/why it doesent fit INTP if it doesent and maybe tell you some key points about INTPs. And yes, i will check what other 9 profiles say about the stuff that you are saying just to make sure that you arent trying to give a biased view of it

At the core of any type is the Holy idea, for 9s it's Holy Love, the message in childhood is that love is conditional that they are not intrinsically loveable, they learn that it's easier to give up their own needs and blend into the background to keep connections. They fall asleep to their own needs, numb them out and withdraw into their own space (physically or mentally). On the surface 9s are agreeable, however it's not true agreement, it's about not knowing or wanting to have their own stance, they can naturally see all sides of a debate and see the validity in each so in the absence of their own opinion will drift along while trying to make up their own mind. 9s tend to know better what they do not agree with, as a core anger type when you hit a 9s resistance it will be like iron, even while appearing friendly and agreeable on the surface they are set and nothing can move them, when a 9 does allow their anger to rise it often expresses according to their wing (1 judgmental or 8 rage). 9s seek independence and autonomy however can struggle to be assertive about those needs like a 1 or 8 can so can repress these needs by retreating within themselves to fantasy. Not really sure what you're looking for so that'll do.

I am ofc interested in how you believe Ti-Ne cannot work with 9, seeing as I'm Ne-Ti and most definitely 9 and have met INTPs who identify that way as well (typically after mistyping as 5), the differences between them and INTPs who are 5s is marked however the TiNe is there.

If the profiles you're looking at are online websites, again I say this is your issue, EI is one of the better ones but they are all substandard when wanting to get at the guts of enneagram.

 

[Kasper]

I will add that my belief with MBTI & Enneagram is that MBTI is inborn, it just is, there are no patterns to be seen with parents types leading to certain common types for their offspring. Enneagram however is something that is caused by a number of environmental things, and includes the childs MBTI, there are patterns that can be seen.

When things are average and okay in the environment, the child isn't sick, abused or neglected in someway, there are no hardships or expectations (good or bad) beyond normal then the average INTP would develop into a 5, it is, I believe, the reason most INTPs are 5s, the combination gels easily. Just as the average ENTP would develop into a 7. I'll continue with ENTPs here now as I know it better... If an ENTP child is shown that being focused and achieving things is of great value and will show them love then it's not a big jump to develop into a 3, it's a common enough combo, if they are tasked with great responsibility and pushed into taking charge of things then 8 can develop. Maybe they experience death up close or something that makes security of major concern so 6 is developed.

9 plus ENTP is not a common combination and as such requires something bigger to happen in childhood for an ENTP to develop that way. As a young child my mother would have labelled me 7 however at a certain point I learned that it was not okay to be myself, that I had to be who others would accept on the surface and retreat within while letting go of my own needs replacing them with anger at my core that would be suppressed, anger at not being able to be myself. It isn't as large of a jump for an INTP to develop into 9 however there would be patterns of what leads there, often relating to parents having split focus so the child blends into the background, something like a high-needs sibling that requires the attention could do it.

 

[INTP]

I will add that my belief with MBTI & Enneagram is that MBTI is inborn, it just is, there are no patterns to be seen with parents types leading to certain common types for their offspring. Enneagram however is something that is caused by a number of environmental things, and includes the childs MBTI, there are patterns that can be seen.

Im glad you added this because now i can see where the problem is. I think that people are born with enneagram type(just like they are born with MBTI type, or at least with dominant function) and that this enneagram type is the core type from which you develop other e types in you(but the core remains the same whether or not people are able to see it in themselves as this core type might get repressed to quite the degree and therefore work from what jung called shadow, the difference then is that now what defines you the most works from the unconscious and the persons persona tries to get away from it as it doesent suit the needs of the external world, or so the persons sees it as). Some people start to over identify with some of these developed types instead of core type due to some life circumstances. Im not disagreeing that an INTP couldnt develop 9 in them enough to identify with that type, what im disagreeing is that this could be the core type.

And a quote from hudsons and risos book 'Discovering Your Personality Type: The Essential Introduction to the Enneagram' page 199-200: "What needs to be said right away in any discussion of parenting is that parent do not create a childs personality type. All enneagram teachers and researchers agree that personality type is built on temperament(which imo could be measured with MBTI for example) and that, in ways we dont fully understand, this is inborn. A child comes into the world with his or her personality type already determined with prenatal events, although we do not know what all of these are. ... This is not to say that early family conditions and parental influences are not important: far from it. While they do not cause type, they highly influence how emotionally healthy or unhealthy a child becomes. A child that is fortunate enough to be born into a family of well-balanced parents will start life as a relatively healthy example of his or her type. Conversely, a child who is born into a relatively dysfunctional family will have to close down his natural openness, spontaneity, and vitality and need to erect defenses against the various forms of violation thats exists in the family."

I didnt even have to read what the enneagram professionals say about this before coming to a conclusion about this, because everyone who has read enough of developmental psychology will see this as obvious.

 

[Kasper]

Im glad you added this because now i can see where the problem is. I think that people are born with enneagram type(just like they are born with MBTI type, or at least with dominant function) and that this enneagram type is the core type from which you develop other e types in you(but the core remains the same whether or not people are able to see it in themselves as this core type might get repressed to quite the degree and therefore work from what jung called shadow, the difference then is that now what defines you the most works from the unconscious and the persons persona tries to get away from it as it doesent suit the needs of the external world, or so the persons sees it as). Some people start to over identify with some of these developed types instead of core type due to some life circumstances. Im not disagreeing that an INTP couldnt develop 9 in them enough to identify with that type, what im disagreeing is that this could be the core type.

And a quote from hudsons and risos book 'Discovering Your Personality Type: The Essential Introduction to the Enneagram' page 199-200: "What needs to be said right away in any discussion of parenting is that parent do not create a childs personality type. All enneagram teachers and researchers agree that personality type is built on temperament(which imo could be measured with MBTI for example) and that, in ways we dont fully understand, this is inborn. A child comes into the world with his or her personality type already determined with prenatal events, although we do not know what all of these are. ... This is not to say that early family conditions and parental influences are not important: far from it. While they do not cause type, they highly influence how emotionally healthy or unhealthy a child becomes. A child that is fortunate enough to be born into a family of well-balanced parents will start life as a relatively healthy example of his or her type. Conversely, a child who is born into a relatively dysfunctional family will have to close down his natural openness, spontaneity, and vitality and need to erect defenses against the various forms of violation thats exists in the family."

I didnt even have to read what the enneagram professionals say about this before coming to a conclusion about this, because everyone who has read enough of developmental psychology will see this as obvious.

Many Enneagram teachers delve into childhood influences on enneagram. The expressed view that I've read and consider most valid is that childhood experience will help shape enneagram, inborn MBTI is something I consider a large factor but it cannot count for everything. The pattern for 9s is a common occurrence of one parent being a 9, the other being a stronger or overbearing type, the child not feeling able to stand up to the latter while relating to the former, when written about, the MBTI of a child isn't brought into the discussion yet it is an observable pattern.

Regardless, the crossover from MBTI to Enneagram is not direct, if one specific MBTI type is supposed to correlate to a specific Ennea-type, how would you account for 16 MBTI types, and 9 enneagrams (or 18 if you count different wings as different types)? Clearly the system cannot work that way and should not be considered directly related. What reason do you have for why an INTP would have to be a 5, you say the primary function is inborn which suggests you don't presume the aux function is there until later in development, so what stops this child developing Se instead of Ne and being an ISTP, or are they also expected to be 5s?

Consider the below excerpts from Chestnut





They have a similar theme imo, one of needs being unmet and withdrawing, so why would an INTP who is 5 react any differently to the way that 5 is expressed, why would they react in a 9 manner if they are not 9 at their core? One seeks to disconnect at their core, the other to maintain connection at all costs, complete opposite reactions/motivations.

Even if we were to take the premise of all INTPs are born INTP E5 as you suggest, what relevance does that hold if all the core motivations 'develop' into 9 ones? Because if an INTP has the core motivations of a 5 then they would 5, and if they have the core motivations of a 9, then they would be 9, it's not about acting like a different type as behaviours are irrelevant, it's what motivates those behaviours that matters, these are often unconscious motivating factors. Core motivations and fears = relevant to core type. What would you consider the core type, if it's not about the core motivations and fears of a type?

 

[yeghor]

Here is another I made, using data on >10,000 members at Personality Cafe.

The data there suggests about a 10:1 ratio of e5 INTPs : e9 INTPs.

Something's wrong with INFJ's being predominantly 4's... IxxJs have a too strong superego... It should be related to enneagram 1 or another one that's related to superego...

Enneagram 1 - Ni or Si

Enneagram 2 - Fe

Enneagram 3 - Fi or Fe?

Enneagram 4 - Fi

Enneagram 5 - Te or Ti?

Enneagram 6 - Fe or Te?

Enneagram 7 - Se or Ne (id)

Enneagram 8 - Se or Te

Enneagram 9 - Si?

There seems to be a gradual transition between the functions... couldn't exactly pinpoint it... For instance in, 2-3-4 there seems to be a transition from Fe to Fi... In 4-5-6 there seems to be a transition from Fi to Ti to Te?

So it appears Ni-Fe and Si-Fe i.e. IxFJ would require 1w2... so does that mean 1w9 more suited to IxTJ....?

Fi-Se i.e. IxFP would require 3w4 or 4w3 and a 7w8 7w6 or 7w8...

Ti-Ne would require 5w6?

Anyway, I can see IxFPs being crowded around 3 and 4 and IxTPs around 5..

I would expect IxxJs to be concentrated around 1 2 and 9 though...

Ne and Se doms (and perhaps Te-doms) concentrated around 7 and 8 seems to be normal...

I would expect 7 and 8 main types to be of the sx variant... and Ne and Se-aux types i.e. 3 and 4 to be sp/sx variant...