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[NT] Is there free will?

your personality type, and do you believe in free will?

  • intp, yes there is free will

    Votes: 10 32.3%
  • entp, yes there is free will

    Votes: 1 3.2%
  • intj, yes there is free will

    Votes: 5 16.1%
  • entj, yes there is free will

    Votes: 3 9.7%
  • intp, no there is not free will

    Votes: 5 16.1%
  • entp, no there is not free will

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • intj, no there is not free will

    Votes: 7 22.6%
  • entj, no there is not free will

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    31

zago

New member
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
1,162
MBTI Type
INTP
Experiments show that people subconsciously make decisions before consciously doing so. Also look into the phenomenon of confabulation: people apparently tend to simply make up narratives about whatever happens that may be wildly far from actuality.

Determinism is also simply a nicer way of looking at things. People aren't better than others, people aren't worse than others. They result from their circumstances. That means you don't get to congratulate yourself too much, and it also means you don't have to beat yourself up for not living up to the highest standards. It means that evil-doers didn't really make a choice to do evil things, which I prefer to think anyway because why would someone do that given free will? Free will just doesn't make sense.

That said, I do still think it is necessary to act as if there is free will to an extent. The illusion of free will persists no matter what. You can't live an automatic life. Believe me I've tried.

Recently there have been experiments showing quantum effects in the neuron microtubules, but that doesn't say much to me yet.
 

Rasofy

royal member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,881
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Yes, but it's heavily conditioned by forces outside of our control.

/inb4 'but that's not free will'
/inb4 'don't waste my time'
 

Such Irony

Honor Thy Inferior
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
5,059
MBTI Type
INtp
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I believe in physics and brain chemistry dictating our actions. So no, for free will.
 

Opal

New member
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
1,391
MBTI Type
ENTP
Citing determinism as a cop-out is damning, but the idea's irrefutable. We're all chemical cascades, cogs in cosmic clockwork, etc.
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
There is free will, but what is willed to be is meant to be.

The Why the Why of Faith and Faith.
 

Alea_iacta_est

New member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
1,834
Depends on the specificity in my opinion.

On one hand, your thoughts and mind are controlled by a series of chemical reactions that determine your wants and needs and how you react to certain things, while on the other you can still make choices going against your own "will", so wouldn't that be free will or is that merely a manifestation of the unconscious calculating away to make the best choices for you?

Now comes the question, is the unconscious really you? Or simply a guardian angel that tries to protect you, the ego, from danger?
 

SpankyMcFly

Level 8 Propaganda Bot
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
2,349
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
461
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Hard determinist myself, but I'm an INFP, what do I know? :p
 

BlackDog

New member
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
569
MBTI Type
NiTe
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
No free will. Even if there is some degree of 'nurture' involved in decision making, 'nurture' is ultimately the product of 'nature' passed down in another way; it's a null argument.
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
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5w6
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sx/so
Project Star Forge will design the ultimate station of power called “Transcendental Pinnacle”, under the mottos of "Spawning Destructive Chaos" and “Annihilating Programmed Destinies”. It will focus energy for 8 years until it spawns our Rainbow Bridge to Heaven. Project Star Forge will be directed by mankind, and this greatest achievement will be completed in 2064.

The ideal will be described, and others will visualize it. Nobody will do it alone. It will be reflected across into Heaven. The greatest hero on the job will be the very smartest person in the world, and he will fire the beam projection to build our bridge. No Prophet has ever had a vision of this Star Forge yet. Bunny already had the vision though in 1980, and She completely commands its power, because that much will be possible to do with it.

I will use a meditation technique called Synchronization to build it vaguely mentally. It will be searching for singularities. The Star Forge will destroy darkness and replace it with sparkling rainbows, so space will be shiny. It will travel through time, taking shorter periods of time as such to construct.

It shall will positive auras that make people happy, crackling with dark side energy from the good forces. The Star Forge will make things metaphysical. Bunny will Love it way more than anything else. There will also be another anonymous hero. Bunny is the true director of Project Star Forge. It will be named "Sparkleashunexum-8".
 

BlackDog

New member
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
569
MBTI Type
NiTe
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Project Star Forge will design the ultimate station of power called “Transcendental Pinnacle”, under the mottos of "Spawning Destructive Chaos" and “Annihilating Programmed Destinies”. It will focus energy for 8 years until it spawns our Rainbow Bridge to Heaven. Project Star Forge will be directed by mankind, and this greatest achievement will be completed in 2064.

The ideal will be described, and others will visualize it. Nobody will do it alone. It will be reflected across into Heaven. The greatest hero on the job will be the very smartest person in the world, and he will fire the beam projection to build our bridge. No Prophet has ever had a vision of this Star Forge yet. Bunny already had the vision though in 1980, and She completely commands its power, because that much will be possible to do with it.

I will use a meditation technique called Synchronization to build it vaguely mentally. It will be searching for singularities. The Star Forge will destroy darkness and replace it with sparkling rainbows, so space will be shiny. It will travel through time, taking shorter periods of time as such to construct.

It shall will positive auras that make people happy, crackling with dark side energy from the good forces. The Star Forge will make things metaphysical. Bunny will Love it way more than anything else. There will also be another anonymous hero. Bunny is the true director of Project Star Forge. It will be named "Sparkleashunexum-8".

So, you're saying that this prophecy demonstrates that free will is impossible, because so much is already pre-determined?
 

ginniebean

New member
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
29
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
We don't have free will, the notion that we do is comforting and allows for the excessive moralizing we do but it doesn't actually exist. Being on a personality forum where you can clearly see the various psychological programs and how difficult if not impossible it is to become a different one should make that particularly clear.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
We don't have free will.

This would be interesting if we didn't know that criminals exercise free will depending on whether a police officer is present or not.

If a police officer is present, they choose freely not to commit the crime; and if a police officer is not present, they choose freely to commit the crime.

And on this basis our Criminal Justice System take into account intent.
 

ginniebean

New member
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
29
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
This would be interesting if we didn't know that criminals exercise free will depending on whether a police officer is present or not.

If a police officer is present, they choose freely not to commit the crime; and if a police officer is not present, they choose freely to commit the crime.

And on this basis our Criminal Justice System take into account intent.

Conditioning to behave in a certain way when there is an external locus of control, such as a powerful authority figure, doesn't make an argument for free will. An authority figure just strengthens the behaviour program.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Conditioning to behave in a certain way when there is an external locus of control, such as a powerful authority figure, doesn't make an argument for free will. An authority figure just strengthens the behaviour program.

Criminals choose when and where they commit crimes. They choose rationally and they choose freely.

And they are not behavioural automata, for sometimes they choose to commit a crime with a police officer present.

Of course if you are right about behavioural automata, then we have no need of the Criminal Justice System, and we could replace it with Behavioural Conditioning.
 

sarek

New member
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
25
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
952
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Criminals are as much subject to control mechanisms as everyone else. Their actions, given a certain situation, are quite predictable. Their locus of control is in their behavioural indoctrination.

So indeed doing away with prisons and resorting to behavioural treatment would be much preferable.
 

baccheion

New member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
777
There's free will, but there are also the ones who are always trying to rob everyone of it. Look at any idiot manager or controlling fool who is obsessed with telling everyone what to do and with being in control of everyone, and you will see another worthless person with nothing in mind other than robbing anyone of any form of free will and replacing it with their own stupidity.
 

kyuuei

Emperor/Dictator
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
13,964
MBTI Type
enfp
Enneagram
8
Not in infinite amounts. But sure.
 
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