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[NT] Is there free will?

your personality type, and do you believe in free will?

  • intp, yes there is free will

    Votes: 10 32.3%
  • entp, yes there is free will

    Votes: 1 3.2%
  • intj, yes there is free will

    Votes: 5 16.1%
  • entj, yes there is free will

    Votes: 3 9.7%
  • intp, no there is not free will

    Votes: 5 16.1%
  • entp, no there is not free will

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • intj, no there is not free will

    Votes: 7 22.6%
  • entj, no there is not free will

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    31

Mane

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
828
I think free will has being unreasonably conflated with freedom from causality, romanticizing a notion that if there is a random non-mechanistic source to which we can relate our choices, that source is "the real me". That is bullshit. However, the process of making a choice is the state of mind between the point in which you experience multiply possible paths and the point at which you've found the reasons to pick one or the other, and Within that time frame, you are free from the causes to pick one choices because the mental reaction to those causes haven't happened yet. The causality chain that lead to the causes might have already happened, but the cause doesn't come into existence until it actually happens. What I consider to be freewill is that characteristic of that mental gap, which is why I voted yes (And ENTP, because everyone keeps telling me that).
 

Kullervo

Permabanned
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
3,298
MBTI Type
N/A
We do, as sentient beings, have free will.

I can make a conscious choice to reject some else's point of view, but I may not have the power to change theirs.

There is a difference between will and power.
 

Evo

Unapologetic being
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,160
MBTI Type
XNTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Free Will: the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Yes.
 

indra

is
Joined
Jun 9, 2014
Messages
1,413
MBTI Type
jedi
Enneagram
8
There is the intellect and there is the intuitive self -

The intuitive self is bound by universal will.

The intellect states we should all remain seated at a theatre.
 

RomanGuy

New member
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
9
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
There is free will in the sense that you are not determined to follow any will but yours.

There is not free will in the metaphysical sense that you are not the first-cause of yourself; you did not choose your "self" with all of it's characteristics/desires and every choice that you make is based on this "self." You cannot be anyone but yourself.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
In theory, yes. In practice, not as often as there should be.
 

Cryonium

New member
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
37
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
4/9
I believe since there's no certain meaning to the universe we do whatever we want in it, weather it's good or bad.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
There is free Willy. I find that more comforting than will.

oa26fs.jpg
 

diMaggio

New member
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
3
MBTI Type
INTJ
I didn't choose either because the question is too ambiguous. Depending on how free will is defined exactly you'll get (and possibly have already gotten) answers about different things, all of which have been labeled the same, "free will".
What Person A understands free will to be is not necessarily (and most probably not) what Person B understands it to be.
Therefore we'd first need to establish what we're talking about specifically.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
Hard determinist myself, but I'm an INFP, what do I know? :p

I'm the same, but I think in determinism free will hides. You are informed and in turn are the informer of the causal web. It's a spinning circle.
 

Comeback Girl

Ratchet Ass Moon Fairy
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
570
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
2w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Scientific evidence hasn't proven yet that there is such thing as free will, but it is harder to prove that something doesn't exist than that it does. The question is: does it actually matter? As long as people keep the idea or the illusion that there is such thing as free will, it might help them feel like their actions and choices do matter. I can imagine that having the idea that no one has free will, not even you, might give people some sense of powerlessness, like it doesn't really matter what choices you make, because it's not really you who's deciding it.

You can assume that free will is only something that happens consciously, something we should be fully aware of. As scientific evidence showed that all choices they researched arise subconsciously, you can conclude that free will didn't exist in these cases, or at least if you use this assumption. This was based on brain scans they made while their subjects made these choices. But don't do many other types of cognitive processes (or at least part of it) take place subconsciously? When we first learned reading, most of us read words letter by letter to understand what word we were reading. Now that we are older, we don't read like that anymore, not even when we come across words we've never read or heard of before. I must admit I haven't checked any scientific research on this, but doesn't this suggest that as we get more experienced, a part of reading start happening subconsciously, because we simply don't NEED our full consciousness with it anymore?

If we keep this in mind, we could suggest that the subconscious part of decision-making (and therefore the thing that makes us lack in free will) is based on the same process as not reading every single written word letter by letter. Just like when it comes to reading, people need to process a lot of information in order to make a good decision. If we had to handle all that information consciously, we'd become slow, just like a six year old spending eternity trying to read a simple sentence. In order to make decisions faster, it might come in handy to process some of the necessary past experiences we had subconsciously. You could be conscious of the past experiences you're using, but you're not, because that would be impractical.

So I personally think that the subconscious part of our choices and decisions could very likely be part of our past experiences we could be conscious of, but we aren't at the moment, because we just wouldn't get anywhere in life if we were. (Except in cases where we use our fight-flight response and other reflex things, but that's basically evolution and our species as it is wouldn't exist without it.) Does that imply no free will? Maybe, but maybe not. We could also redefine free will as the ability of an otherwise completely sane person to wholeheartedly make stupid decisions yourself without the influence of others, knowing this decision is really stupid and unsuitable to the situation, getting little or no support by others and afterwards still being aware that it was you and no one else who made this decision. Not saying that anyone who didn't do this doesn't have free will, but I personally prefer this definition.

Like an ESFP voluntarily posting something to this NT fuelled thread. That sounds like free will. Woooooooo
 

skgarcia

New member
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
23
MBTI Type
INTP
I believe there is free will based on one condition, and that is simply if one is afraid of death. Harness your fear of death, otherwise known as ego, and free will becomes much more likely.

If you're afraid to die, of course there isn't free will because your ego kicks in during critical time periods. This is quite basic at a foundation level--if you were on a cruise and you saw someone fall over and into the water late at night, most people would long to jump in after to save them, right? Their ego kicks in and says "no, you could possibly die as well!" Free will in regards to travel, falling in love, getting married, so on and so forth is also, believe it or not, controlled by fear of death. You may want to travel, but if you did, couldn't afford to pay the mortgage this month and would lose your home (a primal necessity to life). Your ego (aka fear to die) is the puppet string government, media, Hollywood, etc. use to manipulate the masses into servitude versus doing what you want without fear of losing home and water. The sole purpose of money's existence is to remove your free will by removing your basic necessities to life without money. Since most find homelessness or life without technology impossible to enjoy, they give up their free will.

If you're not afraid to die, you have free will to the extent of peacefully coming and going however and wherever you please as law enforcement is not deterring. Usually living a vagabond life, probably just monetarily scraping by, never saving money, but definitely enjoying life. Think festival hoppers and hippies. They do whatever they want to do in peaceful disregard for idiotic laws, but don't fit the mold society has in place of a "happily free person." To be a truly free person, money cannot be a necessity to you, so these groups of people are paradoxically looked down upon by the enslaved masses controlled by money.

I personally think there is a great lie regarding death and what really happens to you when that time comes, but that's just me personally.
 

Opal

New member
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
1,391
MBTI Type
ENTP
[MENTION=21219]skgarcia[/MENTION], I think the concept of determinism uses cause and effect and reality's basis as an endless cascade of reactions as proof that, in any given situation, you are bound to make the decision you do. Essentially, if life could be comprehensively translated into a program its unfolding could be predicted perfectly.
 

Obsidius

Chumped.
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
318
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Why is neurology even being discussed here? I don't understand.
This is how I see it; there are two dominant theories of causation when speaking about the Universe; The Big Bang Theory and Creationism. Obviouslt Creationism is bullshit, but let's ignore that for a second, the important thing is, they are both a singular thing. One event gave rise to an infinite chain of cause-and-effects. This means, the energy levels, the trajectory of atoms etc, and all the laws of nature were set into motion and being by one event or one being, at one time. How can there be free will? If our minds are an extension of our brain, and our brain is governed by the laws of nature, also is formed in a way that was already determined before you were born, then there can't be free will! You are a product of the laws of nature, of the substances that you consist of, and of the determination that arised from the original cause. However, it gets tricky depending on whether or not we believe in subjectivism. I do, so I must vote no... But I already voted yes because I considered the more objective approach. Fuck. Anywho, if we accept subjectivism, like I do, we must accept that what we perceive is truth, and if you perceive there to be free will in your reality, then it is true, to you that is.
 

Froody Blue Gem

Necromancing Scapelamb
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
1,141
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
954
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I believe that we all make our own decisions and it shapes who we are. In the end, we control our own minds, what we say, and our actions. Earlier in life, this may have been shaped by how our families treated us, whatever type of life situation we were in, etc. Things like this leave lasting impressions and work into the types of decisions we make but it's us who is in ultimately in control. We may learn from this or get stuck in a rut which also affects our life choices.

People don't always make bad decisions out of being "evil" or anything but certain people are certainly prone to being more moral than others. Some people end up doing the wrong things because they're in a really bad place and feel backed into a corner. Of course, everyone can change and has the potential to. Certain circumstances may shape us and it may blur the lines of free will when hard times and other people have an influence on us.
 

ducks

Permabanned
Joined
Feb 25, 2018
Messages
172
At one point in my life I was questioning how Gods could exist beyond time, causality, and everything and what that would mean. I came to the realization that for anything to have any kind of form, there must be some pattern of before and after, some causality, or in other words, some structural mechanism that keeps things together. Any God, therefore has some restraint on their existence or they wouldn't be able to exist either. So they are not truly absolute and free.

So I guess I see the question of free will as kind of moot. Rather there are relative degrees of freedom; and I'm okay with that. I aim to maximize my freedom and that works enough for me.
 

Ashtart

Obliviously Mad
Joined
Jun 6, 2017
Messages
614
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
How can I know? I'm not a mastermind-highly gifted NT.
 

Maou

Mythos
Joined
Jun 20, 2018
Messages
6,116
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Depends on how you define free.

I do not think freewill exists, especially if you know about subconscious psychological manipulation in marketing for example. Since you rely on outside stimulus and biased rationality. Your desicions are not entirely your own, and are consistantly influenced by factors out of your control.

Now learning perspectives, and choosing how you are manipulated can create an illusion of free will. But ultimately we are all dealt a hand that isn't always able to be overcome with will.
 
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