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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Apr 2008


    I guess in the end creativity can emerge in several directions and it depends on which you choose. To be rationally creative comes with my job, so I am probably more inclined to that form. You reach a point in your life, where you need answers and then the whole I am the one thinking outside the box attitude will not suffice you anymore. At this point in life you see other peopel going their ways, your see your friends becoming someone or getting at something.

    And if you have reached this point you really want too.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I really never got the point about ENTPs being constantly on the search for arguements.
    It may be because you are not understanding the premise of an argument. It is not in a negative sense I set out to 'argue'. It is to learn. And, I learn by being mentally challenged. Reading the writing on a page doesn't have that active challenge, that improvisational quality that hones critical thinking, which you only get through some kind of interactive and fairly immediate dialogue.

    ENTPs want harmony above it all. Harmony is when the system works, alle the knobs turn and the machine makes a sound while giving off steam.
    Harmony of a system. Means I want to look at all nook and cranny, shaky it on its head, to see if it is still stable. Shaking can't be avoided. That is achieving harmony of a system such that it works. It is sound.

    I am frequently told that I am 'too chill', 'too go with the flow'. Most daily interactive trivialities with people goes in one ear, out the other - it's more of an observance. And, if there's a spark somewher, I dig deeper. Nothing personal. That then to some become aggressive. Cuz I can dig for ages.

    And, in interpersonal matters, I usually casually tell the other when they do wrong the first time, "Please don't say X, makes me feel like this." I guess because I just flippantly mention it, some who don't know me enough, don't take heed. Once I let go, twice I give to allow the message to sink in. Third time, you bring it, I will finish it.
    I don't bargain with respect for harmony.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Oct 2008


    ENTPs aren't strongly aggressive. Why? Because their creativity wastes aggressive behavior.

  4. #104
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008


    The only ENTP I've met irl was extremely aggressive... silly at times sure... but mostly aggressive.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008


    Of course they are. Grow A spine, push back. Laugh it off. They're some of the worst reaction whores I've seen. They live for the opportunity to affect someone in almost any way. They can go to creative lengths to do so. They feel a lot more passionately about things than they let on, if you want to have fun with them test them on that. Draw out their bad side and withstand it and you will fix a lot of the aggressive issues you may have.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  6. #106
    half-nut member briochick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    ;) sx


    i don't actually know any entps. I know an estp and he's pretty cool. Agressive? yeah sure, but not in a "if you say what I don't like I'm going to explode" way that enfjs are. *laughs nervously* but...what I've heard of entps is pretty good.

    "I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life; I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well."
    -Teddy Roosevelt

  7. #107
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    9w8 so/sx


    <-- Visual demonstration of my forceful aggression!

    Assertive yes, aggressive never.

  8. #108
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    They live for the opportunity to affect someone in almost any way.
    I actually live for the opportunity to be affected by someone, anyone. It rarely happens.

    And I'm the furthest thing from aggressive - I lose interest far too quickly and my brain is already off chasing tangents by the time I finish a sentence. But people tend to think I'm aggressive because in order to save time, I cut out most extraneous words and just get to the f'n point, before I forget what my point is. I also get "intense" a lot. I silently laugh inside when I hear that one.

  9. #109
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Do you mean 'self difference' (I added it to your quote and will correct it if I got it wrong)

    If yes then:
    So we can say that if humans are all so alike: it's like saying that X+Y= 1 and only the values of X and Y change but the sum stays the same.

    What about a more social vision of human society. Which is not purely factualy neutral but qualitative (I didn't say moral).
    There the values of " X " and " Y " do matter.

    This is why I used the example of consciousness, because it's one of the point that is supposed to make us radically different from other animals.
    I didn't say I agree by the way, I don't, but it's one of the things that are pretty much universally accepted in one way or another wether its being called awareness\understanding\consciousness\intelligence , the basic idea is the same: a will and capacity to interpret and modify our environnement using abstract concepts (more or less).
    That would be one of the top two reasons, yes - superior intellect/consciousness. The other being more complex emotions and sense of morality.

    Allow me to clarify what I meant by changing the analogy somewhat. Peace of mind = 5; T+F = 5

    For a T, peace of mind might be achieved by looking at life through a 4+1 (T and F respectively) perspective while for an F it might be achieved with 1+4 (T and F respectively). There's no such thing as a 5+0 or 0+5 model, though.

    And back then I meant to say "My point being that what makes two different people tick is basically the same if you zoom close enough."

    So you could say that yes, depending how you looks at it, the X + Y analogy is something I can agree with. We all need to both satisfy our personal goals (what it means to be happy for each of us) and our primitive instincts. That's what I meant by "if you zoom close enough".

    As far as "stability" or "peace of mind" is concerned...what I meant by peace of mind was basically happiness. Competition and survival of the fittest aren't necessarily concepts that hold true for humans as animals, anymore. We can say Madre Teresa didn't really compete. She only did it in the sense that she was pursuing her own state of peace of mind (I must help others in order to be happy; Come to think of it, enneagram theory might have a thing or two to say about this...) by helping others (and let's assume, for the sake of argument, that was her driving force throughout her life). She certainly didn't live her life with complete disregard for the rest of her own species as long as she could stay on top.

    Survival might have been the only driving force of more primitive animals, but with consciousness and emotions, Man is different.

  10. #110
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    ILE None


    We need to introduce the concept of supervenience here.
    A superposition of levels, each superior level containing all the lower one.

    An example: macroscale physics and ...
    Here, googled it and got a nice picture, it'll save me some typing.

    If you understand particule physics, you can understand social groups if you have enough information and computing power.
    But you can't understand particules physics by looking at social groups. (except if ur planning on getting three nobels a year)(keep dreaming).

    On the other hand it's easier to "reverse engineer" elementary particules by knowing atoms and inducing the origins of their behaviors and structures.

    In understanding the human mind and behavior, the more we stay 'human' in our description, inducing feelings, meaning and so on. The more familiar it is, the easier for us it is to compute.
    Pros: Comes naturally, can give new ideas that can then be applied at that level and compared with other levels of understanding to make the whole system more accurate on every level.
    cons: unprecise, understanding one level doesn't mean understanding its root level.
    for example, understanding the way the eyes\brain capture different frequencies of photons doesn't seem to 'explain' the emergent property of colors, which don't physically exist in the environment.

    So on one level the 'happiness and stability' will have a more philosophical meaning.
    While on a more biological \ physical scale of understanding the happiness and desire for stability ultimately are results of the subtle balance of evolutionary and mental mechanisms of the will to power and drive for relatively superiorly efficient reproduction.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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