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[NT] Politically Correct

anticlimatic

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How inconvenient for y̶o̶u̶ us.

It works, doesn't it?

Since you're all Ti/Te users, debating this currently. What would you guys say is factually incorrect about racism?

Nothing. The only factually incorrect element of racism is a tendency some human beings have of being incapable of holding two separate things in equal standing-- instead preferring to always list things in terms of their perceived merits, with one always better or worse than the other-- common among J types, but I'm not 100% certain of the psychological motivators behind this kind of thinking, or whether or not it's bad in all cases (probably not).
 
G

garbage

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Tl;dr, though it seems you've mistaken Fi for Ti in typing yourself. It's fairly common, but not topic specific.
Wait. You're claiming that PC is a Te/Fi deal, and then claim that a person who advocates at least a little bit of "PC" is mistyped must necessarily have an Fi- rather than Ti-ego function? Doesn't that seem a bit.. well, mental contortion-ish to you?
 

anticlimatic

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Wait. You're claiming that PC is a Te/Fi deal, and then claim that a person who advocates at least a little bit of "PC" is mistyped must necessarily have an Fi- rather than Ti-ego function? Doesn't that seem a bit.. well, mental contortion-ish to you?

Yeah, that looks bad...I didn't mean to tie that in with the overall point I was making. I accused her of being a Fi user for the explosion of indignation and butthurt over an opinion stated in the form of a fact (a common Te/Fi irritation), not because she supports political correctness.

Ti and Fi are very similar, though Ti tends to garnish less emotional reactions from objective statements because of the inferior Fe. I wasn't actually presuming to type her, I just wanted to point that tiny facet out in an indirect fashion.
 

Salomé

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Yeah, that looks bad...I didn't mean to tie that in with the overall point I was making. I accused her of being a Fi user for the explosion of indignation and butthurt over an opinion stated in the form of a fact (a common Te/Fi irritation), not because she supports political correctness.

Ti and Fi are very similar, though Ti tends to garnish less emotional reactions from objective statements because of the inferior Fe. I wasn't actually presuming to type her, I just wanted to point that tiny facet out in an indirect fashion.
You still seem really...confused. :unsure:
 

Coriolis

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Since you're all Ti/Te users, debating this currently. What would you guys say is factually incorrect about racism? What do you define as racism? Is racism acknowledging that races exist? Hierarchal thinking, discrimination, , belligerence towards other racial groups, xenophobia, or just linguistc descriptions?
In my understanding, racism is the belief that one or another "race" is somehow better or entitled to greater power or privilege, than another. I put race in quotes because I find its use ill-defined. Especially with our current knowledge of genetics, something not available when people first started discussing racism, we know that we are all one human species. How do we distinguish races within that? The obvious are black and white, sometimes Asians. People include Native Americans, but how about the indigenous people in other parts of the world? There are groups outside these categories, like Ashkenazi Jews, who are distinct in, for instance, susceptibility to certain diseases. Does this constitute a "race"?

The larger and more important question is whether we can divide humanity into broad groups in such a way that one group can be deemed superior to any other, and therefore more entitled to benefits, responsibility, or power. These groups are not limited to race or skin color, but include ethnicity/culture, and the somewhat related religion, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, etc. Discrimination on the basis of these distinctions is only rarely justified. Belligerence because of them is senseless. Personal preference for one or another group, as in dating, is just that: personal preference, same as preferring beer to wine. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the less preferred choice.

ORLY? Do expand on what you mean (if it's not too incriminating).
Rather than attempt to guess at your intent, I will wait for you to phrase your question more clearly before responding.
 

ColonelGadaafi

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In my understanding, racism is the belief that one or another "race" is somehow better or entitled to greater power or privilege, than another. I put race in quotes because I find its use ill-defined. Especially with our current knowledge of genetics, something not available when people first started discussing racism, we know that we are all one human species. How do we distinguish races within that? The obvious are black and white, sometimes Asians. People include Native Americans, but how about the indigenous people in other parts of the world? There are groups outside these categories, like Ashkenazi Jews, who are distinct in, for instance, susceptibility to certain diseases. Does this constitute a "race"?

The larger and more important question is whether we can divide humanity into broad groups in such a way that one group can be deemed superior to any other, and therefore more entitled to benefits, responsibility, or power. These groups are not limited to race or skin color, but include ethnicity/culture, and the somewhat related religion, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, etc. Discrimination on the basis of these distinctions is only rarely justified. Belligerence because of them is senseless. Personal preference for one or another group, as in dating, is just that: personal preference, same as preferring beer to wine. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the less preferred choice.

You can seperate races based on allele frequences. There are main races that predominate the world who form genetic clines. West-eurasians, east-eurasians, africans. Obviously it's much more complex than that, prehistoric eras are very complex, but scienfically it's possible to trace ancestry and divide groups based on ancestry. This does not take into account external factors, like culture, politics, history, which language is spoken, even if that can be interrelated.

It's much more complex than black/white/asian. Lots of the worlds populations are shaped by prehistoric immigrations, isolation, groups branching off and influencing each-other, prehistoric groups mixing with others and disappearing and founding new ones, sucessive immigrations of different prehistoric groups in each direction, bottle-neck effects, founder effects. It's possible to seperate the ancestry of inviduals within 200 kms of their ancestors with ancestry genetic methodology. It's not as shrouded in mystery as people think. It all comes down to exploring and unraveling the patterns within each groups genome and cross-referencing it to archaelogy and population movements.

However i feel that people who divide others based on external conceptualizations and constructs are sorely ignorant about science and biology. There is no descisive proof that one group is superior to the other. But there is evidence that groups are seperate and different, and descend from different ancestors who were genetically seperate from each other.
 

Salomé

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Rather than attempt to guess at your intent, I will wait for you to phrase your question more clearly before responding.

I asked you to expand. Expound. It means I'd like you to provide more information on what you meant when you said :
In my experience, political correctness often entails suppressing these inconvient truths, as in refusing to acknowledge the emperor's true nakedness.
 

Coriolis

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However i feel that people who divide others based on external conceptualizations and constructs are sorely ignorant about science and biology. There is no descisive proof that one group is superior to the other. But there is evidence that groups are seperate and different, and descend from different ancestors who were genetically seperate from each other.
I wonder at the purpose behind such attempts to divide humanity into these groupings. There are some medical reasons as I already mentioned; scholarly interest in understanding the development and diversification of the human species; and of course, there will always be voluntary associations of similar people. The groupings seem more often, however, to be used for ill, as in the divide-and-conquer racial policies of South African Apartheid.


I asked you to expand. Expound. It means I'd like you to provide more information on what you meant when you said :
Books have been written on this topic and my time is limited. If you cannot see the political benefit of at least appearing to agree with the misguided assertions of those in power, I'm not sure how much better an explanation I can provide. You might review the example I mentioned, and consider the responses, position, and goals of the various people who see that Emperor in his "new clothes".
 

Salomé

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Books have been written on this topic and my time is limited.

Oh, is it? You'd never know...
You did say "in my experience". If you are reticent about sharing your experience that's perfectly understandable. As you say,
You said:
No one is compelled to support their assertions here, but if they don't they cannot expect to be taken seriously.
:whistling:

You're amongst friends, Coriolis. No need to suppress those damned inconvenient truths that are bothering you.
 

ColonelGadaafi

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I wonder at the purpose behind such attempts to divide humanity into these groupings. There are some medical reasons as I already mentioned; scholarly interest in understanding the development and diversification of the human species; and of course, there will always be voluntary associations of similar people. The groupings seem more often, however, to be used for ill, as in the divide-and-conquer racial policies of South African Apartheid.


Yeah.... I agree... genealogy has no place in politics and external construction, certainly not in political policy. Most historical systems as such, which have justified themselves with science, are obscenely wrong in the light of modern science. And any attempts to introduce such policies and beliefs today would be ludicrous, considering how human groups are interrelated, especially since prehistory. There are no purely seperate groups, unlike what traditional racists and racist ideologies have believed over the years.

Most racialization has to do with very small bits of genealogy, namely physical morphology. Which is a small part of the overall differences between people. Sometimes it has nothing to do with morphology at all, but religion, culture, ideology. It usually has nothing to do with any deeper knowledge of ancestry. Most such racist notions are devestated with science.
 

Evo

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Ok, we seem to be having trouble coming to terms with our terms. I assume we're aware that systems are not limited to the physical. All they require are connected elements, often through rules. For example, everyone has a 'system' of studying. Subjective to the individual-- could include coffee, tea, time regiments, etc. A "top-down" system, as most Te systems are, are created prior to implementation and use, often vicarious if not personally invented. Per the example above, a top-down study system would be reading 'how best to study,' and they implementing that procedure for yourself. A "bottom-up" system is a system that falls together on its own, and then is noticed (like the solar system, unless you believe in God). Per the study example, it would be like taking random study breaks in periodic intervals between other tasks, whenever one felt like it, and realizing after the big test that it worked very well. Organic; not forced. In the same way, political correctness is very 'top down;' forced, and unnatural.

Jury is still out on the dom/tert Te/Fi thing. The weaker judging functions only seem to come out when there is no immediate solution to what's encountered for the dominant judging functions. If someone says a word that offends an individual-- a word that isn't inherently offensive (like waitress)-- without political correctness to cite through dom Te, it seems like a tert/inferior Fi would kick in and feel indignant about it, which could have been what was responsible for creating it in the first place.

Fi brings out sloppy ass Te when it feels overwhelmed with all that it can't control. Such as how ppl treat them, or what others say to them.

Te gets overwhelmed becuase it introverts it's feelings improperly over long periods of time. Then has an emotional outburst.

So it's Fi that takes offense. Fi doms to be exact. It's just how it is. They listen with their emotions...and store history connected to emotion as their primary job. They need ppl to be PC.

Te takes offense (MAYBE IF EVER) if they have been exposed to shit for too long. Or know that there's malintent from the other person. Te will most likely ignore that anyways, cause it ignores it's feelings.

And subjective things are not systems. I would agree that Te and top down is forceful though....but the root is inferior Te.


Yeah, that looks bad...I didn't mean to tie that in with the overall point I was making. I accused her of being a Fi user for the explosion of indignation and butthurt over an opinion stated in the form of a fact (a common Te/Fi irritation), not because she supports political correctness.

Ti and Fi are very similar, though Ti tends to garnish less emotional reactions from objective statements because of the inferior Fe. I wasn't actually presuming to type her, I just wanted to point that tiny facet out in an indirect fashion.

This is a perfect example btw, of why I had said when I discuss things with INTP's we get caught up on language. Lmao.

Are you thinking I'm butthurt because I said "If you're gonna hate..." I hardly consider that an explosion. I would consider that slang lol

So because you didn't look at intent, which was: Hey if you're going to critique something, at least make sure you have your facts straight. You think I exploded. I find it interesting cause I love a good round of criticism. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I don't want you to criticize Te....I just want you to be right when you're doing it. lol

I thought everyone kinda knew that Te loves a good challange. And that's exactly what I was doing. Also That's exactly why we don't care about PC. lol Cause if it's true...then you can't deny it.

Sorry about the typos. I'm on a shitty phone
 

anticlimatic

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Fi brings out sloppy ass Te when it feels overwhelmed with all that it can't control. Such as how ppl treat them, or what others say to them.

Are you thinking I'm butthurt because I said "If you're gonna hate..." I hardly consider that an explosion. I would consider that slang lol

You don't strike me as being butthurt (that comment was for someone else), then again I assume you're a Fi/Te type, with tert Te? Is that a correct assumption? One of the reasons I like ENFPs so much more than INTJs isn't in the inverted perceiving functions, it's the fact that when you press an ENFP they default to Te, and can actually work things out logically under stress-- whereas tert Fi users just get downright childish when pressed. Sometimes I think that the tert function is the most important function in the stack-- not only is it our fixation function, but it's also the one we reach for when we shoot from the hip.
 

greenfairy

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I don't view myself as being more concerned with being politically correct than average, but I might be. It's important to me to use language which does not convey incorrect, ignorant, or insulting assumptions toward particular groups of people. I sometimes get offended when people don't share this value, but I realize not everyone cares about the same things and that's not a bad thing. I can just do what I can to help raise consciousness.
 

Coriolis

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Oh, is it? You'd never know...
You did say "in my experience". If you are reticent about sharing your experience that's perfectly understandable. As you say, :whistling:

You're amongst friends, Coriolis. No need to suppress those damned inconvenient truths that are bothering you.
Perhaps, but sharing them here is little more than unproductive venting. I will humor you a bit longer, though I doubt your agenda truly entails understanding my personal observations of political correctness. Let's start with your statement below:

As if we all know politically incorrect speech is actually true, but we don't use it to avoid hurting someone's feelings. Fail. Racism isn't wrong because it offends people, it's simply invalid. Racists are not merely inconsiderate, they are stupid. Why invoke political arguments, when purely technical ones will serve? Suppressing inconvenient / offensive truths is as much a mistake as allowing pernicious lies to go uncorrected.
Much of what I have observed involves suppressing inconvenient truths, not so much to avoid hurting feelings, but to avoid openly contradicting people in authority, like bosses, teachers, committee/team leaders, etc. Challenging the worldview of these authorities has obvious risks, which not everyone is in a position to accept.

Many of my examples occur at work, where the work environment is filled with rules and regulations that cost time and money while contributing nothing to getting the job done. It is politically incorrect to point this out, however, especially when higher-ups are visiting, or we are getting site inspections. These folks don't want to know what it costs, or what isn't getting done because of it. They just want to see everyone following the rules.

It is politically incorrect to point out how another employee is not doing their job, especially without offering up some sort of "mitigating circumstances" that may not even exist. It is even worse if you want to identify a low-performing group, such as "graduates of University X" or "the purchasing department".

It is politically incorrect to suggest that our annual fundraisers for various charities are not at all efficient in raising money; or that we could easily cut the cost of the holiday party in half without sacrifice of content; or that no one is interested in the prizes offered as quarterly awards. Each of these claims suggests that Someone Isn't Doing A Good Job, and we're not allowed to say that.

My current workplace is particularly bad about all this, but I have yet to work anywhere that does not have some of it. I see also in churches, volunteer groups, and especially in schools. Every so often, someone is brave enough to speak the truth. Sometimes it is received better than they expected. More often it is openly criticised, quietly suppressed, or persistently ignored. I pick my battles carefully here because I have only so much political capital, not to mention time and effort, to expend. I go after the things that make the biggest impact on my work, and succeed often enough to be willing to remain in my current position, for now.

Interestingly, the one place I saw very little political correctness was when I worked in a political campaign office! Perhaps that organization was just too goal-oriented to worry about it.
 

Haven

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I think that being politically correct improves your chances of being understood correctly, lest some oversensitive jerk with a point to make begin harping you over something that had nothing to do with what you were trying to say.
 
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