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[NT] Politically Correct

Abbey

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Personally, I find this statement false. Maybe I've read too much Ayn Rand, but everything has turned to black and white for me. Black is black, white is white, everyone needs to stop being sensitive.
 

two cents

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I disagree with any kind of discrimination and prejudicial action. I have no patience, however, with people who get wrapped around the axle about relatively trivial and superficial concerns, when there are far more serious related matters requiring attention. This seems to be at the root of our disagreement. You are defining political correctness to include everything people do to combat discrimination and prejudice. I am defining it, based on my experience of its usage, in a much more limited way as I already explained. This more limited definition focuses on what I consider a minor part of the problem relative to the other much more serious aspects of discrimination that remain.

You are right, that is part of our disagreement. First of all, you seem to think that something you find trivial, IS trivial. This may not be the case, as not being a part of a persecuted minority yourself, you are likely to not even realize that something is a big deal to someone.

And, actually, your definition is much more broad. As in, it includes discriminatory, prejudicial, and bigoted language but ALSO includes anything anyone might misconstrue as such, anything offensive for ANY reason, or even anything someone dislikes and prefers to mis-identify their feelings of frustration/annoyance as being offended.

I am calling this out specifically because the factual correctness of statements is never beside the point. It always is the most important part of the point. Ideally statements are both factually correct and courteous. If something is factually incorrect, no amount of polite language or conciliatory expressions will compensate. If it is correct, the language, whether offensive or not, does not change that truth. In either case, the form of expression is secondary to the content.

What I'm trying to say is, when something is factually correct, the truth value of the statement is not the part of the statement that is politically incorrect. The terminology with which you deliver the statements still matters. And while being tactful and/or courteous is usually a good idea (because turning off your audience rarely works to your advantage), being politically correct is a lesser burden. You can be rude and politically correct. You cannot, on the other hand, be tactful/courteous while being politically incorrect. There's a Venn diagram there that you don't seem to want to see/understand.

Yes, there are such things as hard truths, and no amount of sugar coating will make them more palatable. Those truths exist on an entirely different level from political correctness, which generally concerns itself with terminology. If you stop confusing it for politeness or never offending/upsetting people, suddenly the barriers to delivering hard truths that you (and some other people, from both the proponent and opponent camps) have just imagined into being melt away.


By your own explanation here, political correctness tells us NOT to use the commonly accepted term for something, because that is offensive to (presumably a majority of) the target group.

Nope, that doesn't follow. The "commonly accepted term" is not politically incorrect. Unless you think slurs for various groups are actually the commonly accepted terms for them (in which case, I wonder at the crowds you revolve in). Also, just as you get to tell people what to call you and what not to call you, groups can make their preferences known. Now, groups that are powerless/persecuted have very little clout to make others respect their preferences, so we have the much reviled "political correctness" guidelines in place specifically to give more weight to the preferences of groups that are most likely to be ignored.

Changing attitudes and debunking stereotypes through this sort of linguistic engineering just doesn't work, however, and tends to create resentment and confusion.

It does work and it's done all the time. Usually it is done by powerful groups who have the resources to shout everybody else down, or even threaten them into doing what they are told. The only reason people feel "resentment and confusion" in response to rules about political correctness is because they are used to the privilege of not having to concern themselves with the groups in question, and suddenly feel like they've been thrust into a minefield (where these groups, btw, have always lived).

Might I suggest that just because you don't see/understand the importance of something (like the effects of discriminatory language on its targets), doesn't make it unimportant, and just because you are unaware of something (like persecution), doesn't make it cease to exist.

Definitions, and more importantly connotations, will evolve over time as more people adopt a new usage, but this cannot be forced. Stereotypes change by showing people how they fail to correpond to reality. This happens best through direct encounters with people in the subject group who provide living evidence of the stereotype's falseness.

This is both untrue and naive. Do you not even realize how people's preconceptions affect their very perception? This is experimentally proven again and again and again. If you expect to see something, you will find any excuse to see it, or even invent it and retroactively edit your memories. And compartmentalization is a thing as well, where you keep seeing examples of people you know that don't fit the stereotype, but it either never occurs to you to re-examine the stereotype, or you just naturally assume that that even though this person is an X, they are a GOOD X.



I realize you want to live in a world of perfect rationality, but this world simply doesn't exist. Human beings are not very rational. Yes, even people who are dedicated to rationality in all things -- they simply prefer to be unaware of how much irrational stuff they sweep under the rug of post-hoc rationalizations and compartmentalization. The solution here is not to do more of the same but to carefully observe phenomena (especially when they seem to defy your expectations), to be precise rather than vague and tease apart variables that seem to be connected/the same but are actually independent, and to engage in very careful thinking that takes into account the actual contents of situations rather than trying to create sweeping generalizations (under the guise of clarity and simplicity).
 

rogue350

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I just want to get a reaction out of people. I don't really care if people think I'm racist or crazy. I will say what I want to say in order to elicit a reaction. People are always surprised. I think it's funny. I understand the need to be diplomatic and "choosing your words wisely" but I also like to poke fun at certain groups. I find stereotypes funny because they are either hit or miss. They either grasp the totality of a ethnic group or certain population or they don't. I'm respectful when I need to be and apologize if I take things way too far.

The most important thing would be to find balance between using politically correct and incorrect terms. There is a time for all things.
 

kyuuei

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When I am around friends and family I see no reason to be.

When I am around strangers, I am honest while still polite.. if that's politically correct or not, then it is what it is. But I feel there's plenty of ways to communicate without being politically incorrect.

But I'm not going to go into semantics about things either. Black people are black--they aren't all African Americans. I don't care if I am called White. Etc.
 
W

WhoCares

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I dont know how to be politcally correct. Sorry but dropping a bone everytime I open my mouth is par for the course. Somehow I haven't been lynched yet.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Ideally I would be politically correct in using terms that specific demographics desire to be used in defining their group. Why not? I don't think my own preferences of words are the great holy grail that must be honored because I have this amazing right to BE ME!!

I also try to extend some tolerance to people who are politically incorrect and will tend to attempt diplomacy when they clash. I know people revert to family speech when with family and I have sometimes cringed internally at those contexts, but more than being upset, I observe and wonder about it, and then place it in the mental drawer labeled: Bigot or No?
 

chubber

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The problem I have with Politically correct is, that it is only context based. If politically correct was to catch up with globalization. Then I might see the use for it. But what the one guy thinks he is doing good on the one side, isn't always considered good on the other side.
 

Coriolis

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The problem I have with Politically correct is, that it is only context based. If politically correct was to catch up with globalization. Then I might see the use for it. But what the one guy thinks he is doing good on the one side, isn't always considered good on the other side.
Political correctness becomes a problem especially when it is given priority over factual or historical correctness. In choosing between equivalent names for something, I don't mind using the one the other person prefers, provided they share their preference.
 
S

Society

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so question.. is anyone offended by these?

and please don't answer about someone else - answer about yourselves:
do derogatory nicknames and "hate speech" associated with your respective "protective groups" actually offend you?


i've being called kike & had holocaust jokes thrown at me, jewish scambag - i've had angst about the organ trading rabbi's at NJ redirected at me a few years back, i've being called sand nigger & terrorist (because apparently from the white american perspective i just look arab), not to mention a never ending list of giant jokes & fat jokes... and yet, i don't remember being offended by any of it, at least not as an adult (or for that matter even as a teen). this is not to say i can't be offended - if my guard is down then personal attacks can and have certainly gotten to me, particularly in relations to my personal relationships. i'm not saying i have a particularly thick skin at all. but these sort of group title thingies.. i dont get how can you be offended by them, unless your sense of identity gets entangled with those or whatnot.
 

ceecee

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If you mean caring about offending everyone and their mother, and absolutely not caring what comes out of my mouth - yes. If you mean using correct terms and proper language to describe or classify things, no.
 

Coriolis

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so question.. is anyone offended by these?

and please don't answer about someone else - answer about yourselves:
do derogatory nicknames and "hate speech" associated with your respective "protective groups" actually offend you?

i've being called kike & had holocaust jokes thrown at me, jewish scambag - i've had angst about the organ trading rabbi's at NJ redirected at me a few years back, i've being called sand nigger & terrorist (because apparently from the white american perspective i just look arab), not to mention a never ending list of giant jokes & fat jokes... and yet, i don't remember being offended by any of it, at least not as an adult (or for that matter even as a teen). this is not to say i can't be offended - if my guard is down then personal attacks can and have certainly gotten to me, particularly in relations to my personal relationships. i'm not saying i have a particularly thick skin at all. but these sort of group title thingies.. i dont get how can you be offended by them, unless your sense of identity gets entangled with those or whatnot.
Most of this is just insults, which to me fall outside the issue of political correctness. Insults are always incorrect. They serve no constructive purpose, and are often factually incorrect as well (always a no-no). The only term which seems politically incorrect here is "kike", since it's literal meaning is innocuous, but it has acquired negative baggage as a tool of prejudice. This would be like calling black people "colored", or Japanese "Japs".

I find it hard to take any of this personally, though I admit the only "protective groups" I belong to are women and Italian-Americans. If someone talks about Wops, bitches, or even chicks/broads in what should be a professional or more genteel setting, I just see them as crude and ignorant; same as if they threw around words like shit and fuck.
 

rogue350

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so question.. is anyone offended by these?

and please don't answer about someone else - answer about yourselves:
do derogatory nicknames and "hate speech" associated with your respective "protective groups" actually offend you?


i've being called kike & had holocaust jokes thrown at me, jewish scambag - i've had angst about the organ trading rabbi's at NJ redirected at me a few years back, i've being called sand nigger & terrorist (because apparently from the white american perspective i just look arab), not to mention a never ending list of giant jokes & fat jokes... and yet, i don't remember being offended by any of it, at least not as an adult (or for that matter even as a teen). this is not to say i can't be offended - if my guard is down then personal attacks can and have certainly gotten to me, particularly in relations to my personal relationships. i'm not saying i have a particularly thick skin at all. but these sort of group title thingies.. i dont get how can you be offended by them, unless your sense of identity gets entangled with those or whatnot.

I'm actually quite fond of hate speech and extremists. Their devotion and passion motivates me to be more than a true neutral. In my eyes, it is better to be evil and change the world than neutral and never do anything. The Westboro Baptists are a great example of a group of people with real passion. Whether that passion is hateful and mean is beside the point. They have drive to accomplish something and that is rare these days.
 
S

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I'm actually quite fond of hate speech and extremists. Their devotion and passion motivates me to be more than a true neutral. In my eyes, it is better to be evil and change the world than neutral and never do anything. The Westboro Baptists are a great example of a group of people with real passion. Whether that passion is hateful and mean is beside the point. They have drive to accomplish something and that is rare these days.

yea but that's sort of misses the core aspects of how that kind of passion works - their passion stems from their belief that they are speaking for "good" and fighting against the world's "evils" - they are driven by their moral stance, i doubt any of them shrug "hey i might be evil but at least i am making an impact". milking passion from the human psyche is easiest when its clear you are fighting against something and for something, because then calming down to take a step back and think for yourself becomes "letting the other side win".
 

Mal12345

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The problem I have with Politically correct is, that it is only context based. If politically correct was to catch up with globalization. Then I might see the use for it. But what the one guy thinks he is doing good on the one side, isn't always considered good on the other side.

What? No, political correctness is NOT context based. PC typically drops the context and interprets things according to an artificial external standard invented by someone in a major California university back in the 1970s.
 

Mal12345

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I'm actually quite fond of hate speech and extremists. Their devotion and passion motivates me to be more than a true neutral. In my eyes, it is better to be evil and change the world than neutral and never do anything. The Westboro Baptists are a great example of a group of people with real passion. Whether that passion is hateful and mean is beside the point. They have drive to accomplish something and that is rare these days.

The Westboro Baptist Church is all about money. Its driving force is to outrage people into attacking them, thus luring them into litigation territory.
 

Mal12345

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so question.. is anyone offended by these?

and please don't answer about someone else - answer about yourselves:
do derogatory nicknames and "hate speech" associated with your respective "protective groups" actually offend you?


i've being called kike & had holocaust jokes thrown at me, jewish scambag - i've had angst about the organ trading rabbi's at NJ redirected at me a few years back, i've being called sand nigger & terrorist (because apparently from the white american perspective i just look arab), not to mention a never ending list of giant jokes & fat jokes... and yet, i don't remember being offended by any of it, at least not as an adult (or for that matter even as a teen). this is not to say i can't be offended - if my guard is down then personal attacks can and have certainly gotten to me, particularly in relations to my personal relationships. i'm not saying i have a particularly thick skin at all. but these sort of group title thingies.. i dont get how can you be offended by them, unless your sense of identity gets entangled with those or whatnot.

It's because you don't make politics into a sport.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I'm actually quite fond of hate speech and extremists. Their devotion and passion motivates me to be more than a true neutral. In my eyes, it is better to be evil and change the world than neutral and never do anything.

Fundamentally disagree. The kicker is this.... the most evil fucks in history probably thought they are doing good. Therefore, if you are making an impact for being good, and disregarding anything that might contradict your passion, how do you truly know you are not really doing it for evil?

The second cause of mischief in human affairs is an inflated sense of self-importance. This is where the damage caused by greed comes in. It's less objectionable to me because it's usually a lot less bloody. It just makes other people starve, it doesn't send them off to the gulags or gas chambers. It doesn't commit suicide bombings or abuse prisoners.

/True Neutral

I might also have my head in the sand, though.
 

Coriolis

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I'm actually quite fond of hate speech and extremists. Their devotion and passion motivates me to be more than a true neutral. In my eyes, it is better to be evil and change the world than neutral and never do anything. The Westboro Baptists are a great example of a group of people with real passion. Whether that passion is hateful and mean is beside the point. They have drive to accomplish something and that is rare these days.
I have a rare Soviet environmental poster by my desk. It reads "To destroy is easy; to build up is difficult". Destruction is not to be compared with accomplishment. Anyone who is content making a negative impact just has to fly a plane into a landmark, or shoot up a school. A positive impact generally requires more commitment and perseverance.

What? No, political correctness is NOT context based. PC typically drops the context and interprets things according to an artificial external standard invented by someone in a major California university back in the 1970s.
It is context based, but that doesn't improve matters. It just makes the rules a moving target. Just look at the usage of "nigger". I've read that in some situations, it's OK for blacks to use this term to each other, but heaven forbid a white person utter it, even in the uncensored version of classics like Huckleberry Finn or Showboat*. What's artificial is equating terminology with human intentions, namely the desire to insult or to show respect. They don't always go that clearly hand-in-hand.

*Consider the song "Old man river" from Showboat, a musical which highlighted the hardships of black people working on the Mississippi. Here it is from the 1936 movie, sung by the inimitable Paul Robeson.


Wikipedia summarizes changes made to the lyrics in later renditions:

Robeson's own 1938 changes in the lyrics of the song are as follows:
  • Instead of "Dere's an ol' man called de Mississippi, / Dat's de ol' man that I'd like to be...", Robeson sang "There's an ol' man called the Mississippi, / That's the ol' man I don't like to be"..."
  • Instead of "Tote that barge! / Lift that bale! / Git a little drunk, / An' you land in jail...", Robeson sang "Tote that barge and lift dat bale!/ You show a little grit / And you lands in jail.."
  • Instead of "Ah gits weary / An' sick of tryin'; / Ah'm tired of livin' / An skeered of dyin', / But Ol' Man River, / He jes' keeps rolling along!", Robeson sang "But I keeps laffin'/ Instead of cryin' / I must keep fightin'; / Until I'm dyin', / And Ol' Man River, / He'll just keep rollin' along!" In Scene 7 of Act II of the show, Joe does sing this verse, but rather than singing "I must keep fightin' until I'm dyin", sings "I must keep livin' until I'm dyin,/ But Ol' Man River,/ He jes' keeps rollin' along!" According to the 1988 EMI album of Show Boat, these are Hammerstein's authentic lyrics for this reprise.
In recitals and in several of his many recordings of the song, Robeson also omitted the controversial section "Niggers all work on de Mississippi...", etc., with its middle portion "Don't look up/ An' don't look down/ You don't dast make / De white boss frown", etc., as well as its concluding "Lemme go ' way from de Mississippi/ Lemme go ' way from de white man boss, etc."

These changes reflect the evolution of political correctness in how black people are described, even in art. Not only did the 1929 original "niggers all work . . ." get replaced by "darkies" in this 1936 version, and later "colored folks" and eventually "everyone" -- the last decidedly untrue; depictions of blacks being drunk, or longing for a leisurely lifestyle (inclination to be lazy??), or even fearing death were considered no longer appropriate.
 

danseen

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Depends.

I don't use the n-word in public. Only a dope would ;)

But then PC infantilises grown fucking adults. Baa-baa-black-sheep is offensive? lololl.. what the fuck dudes? So black sheep don't actually exist? Oh, know it was plot by 17th/18th century British people to discredit black people and justify the slave trade right? haha..
 

danseen

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It's amazing how many people seem to equate being "politically correct" to being "polite" or even just not being a raging asshole to other people. So, if we are talking about political correctness, let's define our terms first, shall we?

Being "politically correct" means not saying derogatory things about traditionally persecuted groups, because doing so is a type of persecution. That's why there's the word "political" in there. Because if you are dealing with an individual and you say derogatory things about a group this individual belongs to and/or indicate that the individual in question is not even an individual to you, but merely a representative of that group, and that you despise that group, what you are doing is a political act. You might be being an asshole too, but you are doing something distinctly different from (for example) telling someone they are ugly. What you are doing is contributing to the persecution of a group.

To that end, not being politically correct makes you an even bigger asshole. But sure, if you want to be one, that's your choice. That's the other thing about being "politically correct" is, it's not legally enforced. I.E. you can't go to jail for being politically incorrect. You might want to brace yourself for social consequences, however, i.e. being criticized and being called an asshole. That's freedom of speech at work.

As for "everybody needing to be offended from time to time"... do you honestly believe that people who belong to persecuted minorities somehow lack reasons/opportunities to be offended in their lives? And even if you did believe such a preposterous thing, how does it make it your job to offend them, or give them a dose of "reality"? In addition, even if you believe that and also believe it's your job to offend people, why do you think it's important for you to offend them in specifically the way that makes the offense politically incorrect, i.e. by invoking and participating in the persecution of the group(s) this person belongs to? Can you not just be offensive in any of a million other ways? It really doesn't take that much effort or imagination...

It seems to me that people who love to bash "political correctness" are people who are somewhat deficient in social graces and can't seem to avoid offending people whether they meant to or not, but don't want to face social consequences (i.e. being criticized and disliked) for this. That's why they like to conflate "political correctness" to politeness or not offending people. That's a neat little straw man, but it doesn't actually get you off the hook for offensive behavior. Granted, it's almost impossible to go through life without ever offending somebody, but the correct response to "accidentally" giving offense is not by doubling down on being an inconsiderate asshole. Also, I realize that public opinion is not even remotely infallible, but maybe if something you are doing is consistently offensive to a lot of people, it's worth re-considering your position every once in a while (even if you keep coming to the same conclusion), just, you know, to see if you might think of new reasons why everybody is on your case about it.

Maybe, but then people hold a total right to be racist.
 
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