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[MBTI General] F mystery debunked

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Orangey

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Here is the heart of cognitive process appreciation. It is not appropriate to use feeling to evaluate the empirical formula of a monosaccharide just as it is not appropriate to use impersonal reasoning to nurse a broken soul back to health. As Oprah would say, both are valuable and you need both to function in this world.

Agreed.
 

JAVO

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Why the long rant on feelers stating what everyone already knows about an unbalanced F? It doesn't seem rational given that we all know the negative consequences of unbalanced thought and behavior.

Are you going to create a "T mystery debunked" thread about unbalanced T behavior too, or has that not rubbed your consciously-denied subjective values judgments the wrong way?
 

SolitaryWalker

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While I do enjoy the theatrics, I'm still not convinced that the feeling function alone (or at all) is responsible for what you're illustrating. That just seems like pure emotion (and laziness). The decisions that the feeling function would be responsible for fundamentally elide logical justification. Take aesthetic preference as an example. How am I supposed to logically justify why I don't prefer Dadaism? I can't, and it isn't appropriate to that type of decision anyway.

Feeling is analogous to emotion as a magnet to metal. How about I put a bag of shit right outside your door and ask you, if it doesnt reek. Is it the shit alone thats making it smell this bad?

Feeling when unbalanced by other faculties, especially Thinking will turn out exactly that way, shall be pure emotion.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Are you going to create a "T mystery debunked" thread about unbalanced T behavior too, or has that not rubbed your consciously-denied subjective values judgments the wrong way?

It can be done, but at this point simply irrelevant.
 

SillySapienne

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A diatribe against feelers because *I* happen to be *feeling* like shit today.

Mr. Wing,

Your OP is, hands down, the most ironic post I have yet to read, period.

It can quite easily be inferred that you wrote this under an emotional haze, while in a torrential mood.

I bet you either consciously or subconsciously know this, too.

When you write your ideas on type theory from a more objective standpoint, you actually come up with some pretty accurate and elucidating stuff.

:yes:

Sorry that one or some of us "feelers" has done you wrong, but it's not fair for you to take out your personal issues with one or a few of us, on *all* of us.

Oh, and...

:hug:
 

phoenix13

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Feeling is analogous to emotion as a magnet to metal. How about I put a bag of shit right outside your door and ask you, if it doesnt reek. Is it the shit alone thats making it smell this bad?

Feeling when unbalanced by other faculties, especially Thinking will turn out exactly that way, shall be pure emotion.

:huh: ... my shit smells like roses.
 

Blackwater

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There is indeed a possibility that Bluewing's sentiments are fed off inferior Feeling. Should we then, turn this entire matter into a question of wheter Bluewing is deluded, rather than wheter Bluewing is correct? - I think that we are doing ourselves a disfavour if we opt to do the former.

2
Jennifer I'm not questioning your type, but from a Ti perspective your rebuttal seems rather normative. Now that you've made your point about the influence of inferior F on Bluewing, if we were to look ahead, what would you respond to the actual content of the post?

3
I can't believe that some think to argue against the OP on the relativistic assumption that "all values are equally good". This is demonstratably false, though I won't go into it here.

4
Economica: I'm sure Foucault would back you up in saying that what appears to be logical truth can indeed by heavily influenced by factors unkown to the subject presenting those truths, yes.
Points for bringing up philosophy in a Bluewing thread! :)

5
Personally, I think there's a lot to be said for the content of the OP. I have had the same experiences with feelers, and I don't even live on the same continent! Though I do by no means wish to discount all feelers; my partner, and several close friends being Fs. In fact, I very much cherish the competent use of F.

5a
One thing I objectively believe to be true is that it is relatively easy to point out the logical fallacy in malfunctioning T, which in theory should help the T to redeem himself.
(In theory, at least - though we might actually argue that what is getting in the way of the T redeeming himself after being proven logically wrong in practice is actually their inferior F)
Whereas, malfunctioning F is often pretty hard to rectify because little or no logic is really necessary. - Just like the OP describes.

6
When it all comes down to it, most people actually act as if Thinking is superior to Feeling without even knowing it.

You might ask yourself: How come its ok for a one-sided-feeler to expect a thinker to take account of his feelings, while its not okay for a one-sided thinker to expect a feeler to express himself rationally?

In other words, its okay for feelers only to play their own chord, while thinkers are expected to play two chords.

This implies to me, that Feelers are somehow regarded as less in control of themselves than Thinkers.
 

Brendan

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Thus when they say the wall is red, they are not talking about the actual wall, but about their feelings about the wall.
This statement is more F then I ever could hope to muster. Are you sure you're talking about feelers as opposed to how you feel about feelers?
 

Orangey

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One thing I objectively believe to be true is that it is relatively easy to point out the logical fallacy in malfunctioning T, which in theory should help the T to redeem himself.
(In theory, at least - though we might actually argue that what is getting in the way of the T redeeming himself after being proven logically wrong in practice is actually their inferior F)
Whereas, malfunctioning F is often pretty hard to rectify because little or no logic is really necessary. - Just like the OP describes.

6
When it all comes down to it, most people actually act as if Thinking is superior to Feeling without even knowing it.

The situations that call for "T" style judgment are generally more publicly valued in modern society (at least in America). Therefore it is not the feeling function itself that is devalued, but the activities for which it is appropriate are not as, shall I say, prestigious. No one is going to give you the Nobel Prize for helping a friend through a hard time, though it may have taken a lot of time and effort to do so.
 

Blackwater

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Orangey I don't think your line of reasoning is wholly compatible with what I said. It appears that we are talking about different things there.

Though I agree that the things Feeling excels at are generally devalued in Western society. I even put that on my webpage :yes: :)


No one is going to give you the Nobel Prize for helping a friend through a hard time, though it may have taken a lot of time and effort to do so.

But then again, I think most of the people who win the laurelates for litterature are NFs. :)
 

Blackwater

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Double-post victory!

Though there are also countries in the world that devalue T and favour Fe:

arab_map-cities.jpg
 

Usehername

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I understand, as an INTJ, I'm allowed to speak in this thread, so hear goes.

This world is not 100% xxTx type. I cannot expect that all of my interactions will be between xxTxs and myself. Therefore, it's only logical to adapt to my environment, which contains xxFxs.

Not only that, but being a better communicator with xxFxs (meeting people on a playing field we're both comfortable with) improves my skills and qualities as a human because it allows for better relationships to be built and maintained.

It's highly illogical to not develop F skills and to become competent in those areas. You're only holding yourself back, which also holds back how much you can positively impact others.
 

Blackwater

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Hi Usehername :)

I hope you will not be offended if I point out that your sentiments in this thread are very expressive of Te whereas Bluewing's and mine are very expressive of Ti.

Te wants to juggle concrete facts to build something worthwhile in the real world.

Ti wants to juggle abstract ideas, take them apart, and analyse the truth to them. As such, Ti is not always observant of the real world.

In that light:

This world is not 100% xxTx type. I cannot expect that all of my interactions will be between xxTxs and myself. Therefore, it's only logical to adapt to my environment, which contains xxFxs.

Is very true to Te, yet it does not relate to the truth of the observations expressed in the OP, but rather to their usefulness in the real world.

---

By the way, I can't speak for Bluewing, but I actively seek to develop my F skills day by day. But as of yet, Ti truth-seeking always takes precedence.
 

Orangey

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Orangey I don't think your line of reasoning is wholly compatible with what I said. It appears that we are talking about different things there.

Though I agree that the things Feeling excels at are generally devalued in Western society. I even put that on my webpage :yes: :)

Yeah, what I said was pretty unrelated to what you were saying. Quoting you probably gave the impression that I was responding specifically to that part of your argument, but I was actually just taking the whole "thinkers are valued higher than feelers" idea and running :).

I understand what you were saying though...that by making it offensive to suggest that feelers think more, while it's perfectly fine to suggest that thinkers feel more, it makes it seem as though feelers aren't capable of doing both (or that it's easier for a thinker to feel than for a feeler to think, suggesting that feeling is a lower function). My only point of disagreement would be that I don't think many feeling types say or believe that they shouldn't develop their "thinking" more at all.

But then again, I think most of the people who win the laurelates for litterature are NFs. :)

True!
 

01011010

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There is indeed a possibility that Bluewing's sentiments are fed off inferior Feeling. Should we then, turn this entire matter into a question of wheter Bluewing is deluded, rather than wheter Bluewing is correct? - I think that we are doing ourselves a disfavour if we opt to do the former.

Your correct. My apologies, Bluewing.
 

Usehername

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Hi Usehername :)

I hope you will not be offended if I point out that your sentiments in this thread are very expressive of Te whereas Bluewing's and mine are very expressive of Ti.

Not at all offended. :) I sometimes forget about Ti because I don't quite operate with that function often. :huh:

A friend of mine recently "typed" me as INTP because of my apparent lack of Jness (my bedroom and belongings don't look very organized, which, yes, is a bad way to type someone as J or P) but yes, I am very much a xxTJ. :)
 

runvardh

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Actually, I would very much like to point out my values and how they work in a concrete and structured manner. The problem is, the details are more clouds around primary anchor points much like the electron clouds around the nucleus of an atom. If I take a quick snap shot of where one of them is at a specific point in time I can snatch it, but only that one while the others continue to buzz around. I would have to consider chaos theory as almost the best way to put it where the only way to know where everything is all the time one would need to have access to the initial conditions an all the conditions after that up to the present point. Switching to Te, this becomes impractical with the number of these details zipping around at varying speeds.

Honestly, I'd rather talk about organic molecules and blue shifted realty when expected to use a Thinking function.

Fi - sorry we're pissing you off ;)
 

Orangey

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One thing I objectively believe to be true is that it is relatively easy to point out the logical fallacy in malfunctioning T, which in theory should help the T to redeem himself.
(In theory, at least - though we might actually argue that what is getting in the way of the T redeeming himself after being proven logically wrong in practice is actually their inferior F)
Whereas, malfunctioning F is often pretty hard to rectify because little or no logic is really necessary. - Just like the OP describes.

I'll go ahead and respond specifically to this part of your post though, since it's related to the OP ;). First off, I think that what you said in the quoted part above is a truism. We all already know that feeling does not logically justify its decisions- that's why it's feeling and not thinking.

Second, (and this is aimed more at the OP) since we know that feeling makes different types of decisions than thinking, we should also know that some types of decisions will fall outside of its capability (same for thinking, as I demonstrated with the art example). What the OP is complaining about is that unbalanced feelers will use the feeling function to make decisions in situations that are not suited for that type of decision-making. I think any reasonable person will agree that this is sometimes the case. Of course, I have given a fairly moderate interpretation of the OP, since a lot of what he says could be interpreted as meaning that the feeling function has absolutely no purpose at all except to undermine sound judgment and correct perception, under any circumstances. I will assume, for the moment, that Bluewing already recognizes that most feelers are not really unbalanced, and that the feeling function is acceptable when used to make decisions in certain situations.

The problem now is that there is really nothing else to discuss. I could either commiserate with Bluewing and share a personal experience I've had dealing with an unbalanced feeler, or I could try and argue the definition of terms. I have tried the latter, but Bluewing won't budge on the definition of "feeling", the revised definition of which is necessary to argue any point made in the post.
 

Blackwater

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Second, (and this is aimed more at the OP) since we know that feeling makes different types of decisions than thinking, we should also know that some types of decisions will fall outside of its capability (same for thinking, as I demonstrated with the art example).

Yes I concur. This is actually my main critique of Feeling. Although way too often people end up hearing "feelers suck". (which I, to the best of my knowledge, have never said).

Though this supports my earlier point that people unconciously treat Thinking as superior to Feeling. No one will take the statement: "Thinkers are so cold" to mean: "Thinkers suck".
 
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