[MBTI General] Surviving in a Feeling-dominant culture

[skylights]

The worst problem for me seems to be that people assume something's wrong if I don't display enthusiasm. And they expect a certain level of it almost constantly. That's impossible for me. For the most part, I just *do not* express emotion easily (unless the stimuli is extreme), and plus, I don't get excited about the same things that most people do.

I grew up with two IxTPs, so I guess I'm sort of used to them and their relative emotionlessness, but it's pretty easy for me to tell what they get enthusiastic about, because they get really heady about it and start talking quickly and in-depth about it. I think Fs need to get over ourselves, too, just because we're not getting the responses we expect or desire. I think we tend to get upset if we're not getting the emotional affirmation we tend to seek. As for addressing it, you can always verbally say that you're interested in the subject, or other overt verbal cues, if we seem to demonstrate disappointment.

I think also with ExFJs, there is more of an expectation of giving certain cues at certain times. I try to follow those "rules" when I'm with people I know are strong FJs... for example, when first encountering them, asking them how they're doing, and how the people important to them are doing. I also try to follow up what they state with questions about details to demonstrate interest. It's sort of foreign to my own natural processing but it seems to ease interaction.

INTJs have it rough, socially. Not only is their feeling pushed back into the tert function slot, but it's introverted feeling-- which is absolutely useless as social wheel grease. Inferior Fe is actually more useful than tertiary Fi when it comes to that, despite being a weaker form of feeling.

I think there is some truth to this, though also ways to get around it. Fi genuineness of feeling is the endpoint of Fe, in a way, just as Fe is the endpoint of Fi, in a way. In other words, if Fe is applied and everything goes well, everyone's internal wellbeing will be improved, which is the focus of Fi. And if Fi is applied and everything goes well, everyone's interpersonal environment will be improved, which is the focus of Fe. Fi can be used to navigate socially, but for NTJs and NFPs I think it has to be used in concert with N pattern recognition and T external constancy to mimic the relation-roles of Fe. I think detachment can be an asset, too, in terms of being personally consistent and being genuinely kind and empathetic, which tends to be MO of more mature INTJs - for example uumlau and ceecee- who seem to have a natural refinement - a sort of steady wisdom, genuine concern, and detachment - that can also translate over into smooth social interaction.

 

[danseen]

What if their happiness comes from giving other people pain? It woul be find to not apply logic to your decisions if they would never affect anyone else. But they do.

In that case, I'd still say it's logic or emotions.

Empathy is felt because people don't like pain and pain is not good.

 

[AzulEyes]

I've always wondered why INT go on about hating other people, meanwhile wanting to be accepted by said disgusting people.

I also adore when INTJ don't realize they are using their Fi.

And yes a libertarian vote is a vote wasted. If you want to make a statement, throw fake blood on people, don't make symbolic meaningless votes.

Actually, you are a conservative, so never mind, please do make symbolic meaningless votes, immediately and always.

Yeah- that's about the size of it. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
NFs are stuck with people that think that rationality is the end all be all (and we don't) and NTs are stuck with us feelers who put weight to the feelings and values of other human beings. So that's the world we live in. We're all different colors, religions, political affiliations and prefer different cognitive functions too. Such is life.

 

[ceecee]

Fake it.

 

[Coriolis]

I've always wondered why INT go on about hating other people, meanwhile wanting to be accepted by said disgusting people.

Not at all. There are people, and people. We may have no patience with people as a whole, but hope for those two or three who really will understand and appreciate us. We have no delusions of appealing to the masses, nor any desire to.

I think there is some truth to this, though also ways to get around it. Fi genuineness of feeling is the endpoint of Fe, in a way, just as Fe is the endpoint of Fi, in a way. In other words, if Fe is applied and everything goes well, everyone's internal wellbeing will be improved, which is the focus of Fi. And if Fi is applied and everything goes well, everyone's interpersonal environment will be improved, which is the focus of Fe. Fi can be used to navigate socially, but for NTJs and NFPs I think it has to be used in concert with N pattern recognition and T external constancy to mimic the relation-roles of Fe. I think detachment can be an asset, too, in terms of being personally consistent and being genuinely kind and empathetic, which tends to be MO of more mature INTJs - for example uumlau and ceecee- who seem to have a natural refinement - a sort of steady wisdom, genuine concern, and detachment - that can also translate over into smooth social interaction.

I'm not sure I agree with the connection you describe between Fe and Fi, but the highlighted is more or less how it works for us. Also, detachment helps us look beyond many of the superficial things that can appear off-putting to others, and helps us not hold someone's past offenses against them when they appear to be making an honest effort to do better today.

 

[Evo]

How do you do it? I feel like I'm trying to communicate with aliens sometimes, though I've largely given up communicating at all about anything substantial. The worst problem for me seems to be that people assume something's wrong if I don't display enthusiasm. And they expect a certain level of it almost constantly. That's impossible for me. For the most part, I just *do not* express emotion easily (unless the stimuli is extreme), and plus, I don't get excited about the same things that most people do. The difference in my emotional reactions themselves is sometimes even more alienating to them (and vice versa) than my lack of "sufficient" reaction in general.

I don't think I really care, on the whole, but it does seem to put me at a disadvantage, and it's something I'd like to learn to work around, if possible.

Of course, there are many other obstacles to living in an F-dom culture. The hysterical sanctimoniousness of other conservatives generally makes me give them a wide berth, and I'm currently considering leaving the Republican party for the Libertarians. I'm fiscally conservative, but socially and morally moderate-liberal. But I tend to think a vote for the Libertarians is a vote wasted, or effectively, applied to the Democrats. This is just one more example.

What other obstacles have you experienced? And most importantly, have you found ways to deal with them?

I agree, I sense a lack of communication between me and others.

I just get called unapproachable by people a lot, so I started smiling more.

I smile the most when I'm angry so that they don't know I'm angry. It takes all of my energy though.

I find it to be sad on thier part though...cause they don't actually care what emotion I have going on...they just care how I express it. Selfish people ... I could call them names, but with an upbeat tone and full on grin, and they would think I'm complimenting them.

My smile, when I'm really angry, is so obvious (I have looked in the mirror and it just looks like I'm giving people the stink eye...but my lips are turned upward in an exaggerated fashion....I feel like I'm snarling lol) ...and people really can't tell....only the ones close to me.

I was actually shocked by how little people cared if I was using a true smile or fake smile... but it really doesn't matter... So I just keep snarling ha ha It stopped me from being called unapproachble *shrugs* So whatever works

I just focus on things I can control and try to be more mindful.

I would think I have the reverse problem than you though because I'm an extravert. I just keep my mouth shut now. *shrugs* Which like I said is draining at the end of a work day. So I extravert in other ways when I'm home.

I have found that my boss in particular wants me to be someone else sometimes...or she wants me to be perfect.

At this point, I try to use the more heathy side of the very childish Fi. I just say "screw them, they're gonna have to accept me the way I am, or I'll find someone else that will" ( I use this with everything now. Relationships, friendships, bosses...everyone)

I actually like that side of my Fi.

That's it though...it's not easy, so if you find anything that helps you...let me know

 

[Evo]

INTs in general do this a this


yeah, it to my INTJ bestie awhile to come to this conclusion
[MENTION=19898]Redkix[/MENTION] [MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION]
you're talking about an extroverted feeling dominant culture, not a feeling culture in general

BINGO! I was trying to get around to that but didn't want to start an anti Fe derail , that and I don't know his MBTI background.

I'd like more clarity on this.

I don't see it as more of Fe dom than Fi dom...prolly equal...

I think I personally have more problems with Fi - doms irl. They don't express with emotions...but they listen with emotions

I would much rather have someone express thier judgement function overtly than have someone judge me secretly by their judgement function...

If I say one wrong word around an Fi-dom they shut down and blow up at the same time...very vindictive..

I feel like Fe users are more apt to backpedal....I can totally work with backpedaling...a solution is apparent at that time.

Fi doms that I know, don't say sorry...nor do they accept it...

It's total bs

So can you explain your side?

 

[Coriolis]

I find it to be sad on thier part though...cause they don't actually care what emotion I have going on...they just care how I express it. Selfish people ... I could call them names, but with an upbeat tone and full on grin, and they would think I'm complimenting them.

My smile, when I'm really angry, is so obvious (I have looked in the mirror and it just looks like I'm giving people the stink eye...but my lips are turned upward in an exaggerated fashion....I feel like I'm snarling lol) ...and people really can't tell....only the ones close to me.

I was actually shocked by how little people cared if I was using a true smile or fake smile... but it really doesn't matter... So I just keep snarling ha ha It stopped me from being called unapproachble *shrugs* So whatever work

Good grief - that all sounds like so much work. I can't be bothered. I figure when people finally get around to interacting with me and find I am courteous and helpful, the rest won't matter. I have been satisfied with results, for the most part.

I'd like more clarity on this.

I don't see it as more of Fe dom than Fi dom...prolly equal...

I think I personally have more problems with Fi - doms irl. They don't express with emotions...but they listen with emotions

I would much rather have someone express thier judgement function overtly than have someone judge me secretly by their judgement function...

I understand what you are describing. I can often feel what is probably the Fi judgment when I hear certain things. The difference is that I know better than to say anything about it - yet. I try to figure out why I have that feeling, and also examine the other person's statements as objectively as possible. It is the upshot of all this analysis that I will eventually share, if it seems some good might come of it.

 

[Evo]

Good grief - that all sounds like so much work. I can't be bothered. I figure when people finally get around to interacting with me and find I am courteous and helpful, the rest won't matter. I have been satisfied with results, for the most part.

It is a lot of work.

I have been watching this INTJ who seems healthy, on youtube...and he has been reminding me how to use my Fi better.

What you're talking about....where if they get to know you, the rest wont matter...that's healthy Fi. And somewhere along my string of stressful, customer service oriented jobs...my Fi flew out the window...I'm slowly regaining it back now though. phew thank goodness...

I only act like this at work.

I understand what you are describing. I can often feel what is probably the Fi judgment when I hear certain things. The difference is that I know better than to say anything about it - yet. I try to figure out why I have that feeling, and also examine the other person's statements as objectively as possible. It is the upshot of all this analysis that I will eventually share, if it seems some good might come of it.

OOOOOh, yes I want to hear what you have to share whenever that may be! I always find your insights helpful.

Also I learned this Fi stuff from dating an unhealthy ISFP for four years...and at the same time going to work for an unhealthy ISFP as a boss (still there)...

I know what Fi judgement looks like. Even though I may not be able to articulate it yet. I can spot it now. I'm thankful for that. I avoid in depth interactions with people like that now.

 

[Coriolis]

OOOOOh, yes I want to hear what you have to share whenever that may be! I always find your insights helpful.

Also I learned this Fi stuff from dating an unhealthy ISFP for four years...and at the same time going to work for an unhealthy ISFP as a boss (still there)...

I know what Fi judgement looks like. Even though I may not be able to articulate it yet. I can spot it now. I'm thankful for that. I avoid in depth interactions with people like that now.

Anything specific you want to hear about? If you do get stuck as the subject of a strong Fi judgment like this, the one recommendation I can give is to ask the person to explain what bothers them about the matter at hand. If they use Fi, they also use Te, and should be able to enlist it to help with an explanation. This should at least get you both on the same page so you can start addressing the matter constructively.

 

[Galena]

I also think the world would be a better place if it was F-Dom properly understood, I agree with Erich Fromm that the world is pretty repressed when it comes to feelings and feeling per se. So you get a lot of sentimentality, phony feelings, feelings on que and its like everyone is a performance artist or actor. That's when its not all spilling out in outbursts, emoting and in a disordered or disorderly fashion.

In your eyes, what would that better place look like? What do you see as balanced treatment of feeling? This is interesting.

 

[Evo]

Anything specific you want to hear about? If you do get stuck as the subject of a strong Fi judgment like this, the one recommendation I can give is to ask the person to explain what bothers them about the matter at hand. If they use Fi, they also use Te, and should be able to enlist it to help with an explanation. This should at least get you both on the same page so you can start addressing the matter constructively.

Buuuuh...

Yea, I can do that with my boss. If I present it in a fashion where she wont take offense to it, she'll give me a Te answer. I have to see the problem, reflect on it, then come back to it at a later time and I begin all my sentences by saying "What can I do to...blah blah blah...it gets repetative...but at least she's not mad at the end of the convo.

The ex tho, (still friends with him) not the same story.

It's ironic cause I literally just got off the phone with him via him hanging up on me.

He was asking me for help with figuring out his work history for a new job....and he kept saying I was wrong about the years and cutting me off. So I finally responded with "I got nothin, I ..c..a..n.. o..n...l....y........

Him: "fine then forget it" (in an angry voice, which cut me off) and then he hung up on me.

10 mins later...he calls me back..

He just went right into it again asking me what month did he do such and such job...

I'm over this type of behavior. I just kind of find it sad now...

I get cut off before I'm ever able to explain myself. And then I ask for explaination from him and I get a wall or anger...there's no progress.

Something I do must make Fi feel attacked....and I don't know why sometimes....

I just try to converse with him as little as possible now.

I think it mostly is because of in the moment compared to having a robotic reflective response.

I don't like doing either, but at least the latter makes progress.

So got any insights on "in the moment" interaction with Fi?

Maybe I'm not asking for their explanation with the proper words?

I think I just get side swiped by their strong emotional reactions to things that I didn't even think were emotional....almost like I encounter Fi doms with quick tempers or something...does this sound like anything you've experienced?

 

[Coriolis]

It's ironic cause I literally just got off the phone with him via him hanging up on me.

He was asking me for help with figuring out his work history for a new job....and he kept saying I was wrong about the years and cutting me off. So I finally responded with "I got nothin, I ..c..a..n.. o..n...l....y........

Him: "fine then forget it" (in an angry voice, which cut me off) and then he hung up on me.

10 mins later...he calls me back..

He just went right into it again asking me what month did he do such and such job...

I'm over this type of behavior. I just kind of find it sad now...

Why do you attribute this behavior to Fi? It sounds more like Ti or even Si - nitpicking over details.

So got any insights on "in the moment" interaction with Fi?

Maybe I'm not asking for their explanation with the proper words?

My previous suggestion was meant to be "in the moment". As soon as you sense the negative Fi reaction, identify it and ask for an explanation. You can say something like: "there's something about this you seem not to like; can you tell me what it is?", or "I sense you don't agree about this; how would you do it differently?" Note that you aren't agreeing with them at this point either, but you are recognizing their dissatisfaction and asking for their own preferred solution. Once that is on the table, the conversation should improve unless they are being a total jerk about it.

 

[Galena]

I understand what you are describing. I can often feel what is probably the Fi judgment when I hear certain things. The difference is that I know better than to say anything about it - yet. I try to figure out why I have that feeling, and also examine the other person's statements as objectively as possible. It is the upshot of all this analysis that I will eventually share, if it seems some good might come of it.

This is familiar as per how I treat Fi. I don't know about others, but I myself cannot separate the feeling from the compulsion to examine and question it alongside contradicting statements. Imagine the maintenance alert lights on a car dashboard, but instead of oil, the light in question represents a particular inner value. When it is triggered, a red light comes on that means "check this" to me. I've been known to, after feeling a strong Fi reaction to something I read or hear, go plumb the internet for the best arguments against my reaction. I want not just to check out the other side's rationale but to test the integrity of my own, see how well it holds up.

 

[danseen]

Yeah- that's about the size of it. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
NFs are stuck with people that think that rationality is the end all be all (and we don't) and NTs are stuck with us feelers who put weight to the feelings and values of other human beings. So that's the world we live in. We're all different colors, religions, political affiliations and prefer different cognitive functions too. Such is life.

and NFs are never judgmental? haha!

I'm an NT and I don't generally give a crap about rationality.

 

[chubber]

What seems to happen is that the Fe, mimics me as to what they perceive I am giving off... ice cold feelings. Which isn't the case, really. When this happens, it is usually to late and they cut me off before I even get a chance to understand as to what just happened.

 

[Lark]

In your eyes, what would that better place look like? What do you see as balanced treatment of feeling? This is interesting.

 

[AzulEyes]

and NFs are never judgmental? haha!

I'm an NT and I don't generally give a crap about rationality.

See- when I try to defend myself (or "my type") labels are thrown my way by NTs. Not just here- in multiple places online where I interact with MBTI enthusiasts. I'm used to it.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I think being a perceiver surviving in a judging dominant culture would be way harder.

As well as a feeler surviving in a thinking dominant culture.

But I don't have many issues with being a thinker surviving in dominant feeler cultures. But that may also be do to my perceiver nature as well as enneagram 9 I guess.

 

[Evo]

Why do you attribute this behavior to Fi? It sounds more like Ti or even Si - nitpicking over details.

I thought the same thing...I am, and 4 other people, are 100% positive that he is an ISFP, E9.

*shrugs* I don't get why he shuts down and blows up at the same time...but I'm pretty sure he's not healthy...I mean..his mom still does his laundry...

I think he is nitpicky about emotions and sensations...I'm not allowed to talk to him about death, the excretion system, people that he doesn't like, I was never allowed to interrupt "the moment" in bed, etc...or he gets pissy or shuts down....or even both...shit like that seems more emotional than Ti I think.

What seems to happen is that the Fe, mimics me as to what they perceive I am giving off... ice cold feelings. Which isn't the case, really. When this happens, it is usually to late and they cut me off before I even get a chance to understand as to what just happened.

Yea, my friend said that Fe works like a mirror.

Which I still find useful

If Fe works like a mirror then I can talk about the type of atomosphere I'd like to have with the Fe user.

But with Fi... they feel the way they feel, because it's the way they feel...it's just fog to me.

I think what [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] had to say about the expectations of certian cues and rules was right.

If you just abide by the "rules" you're good to go.

The real problem comes in when you don't want to abide by the "rules".

If that's the case...I would get a job where I didn't have to say "Hi" to anyone. But I have grown accustomed to the "rules." *shrugs*

I think being a perceiver surviving in a judging dominant culture would be way harder.

As well as a feeler surviving in a thinking dominant culture.

But I don't have many issues with being a thinker surviving in dominant feeler cultures. But that may also be do to my perceiver nature as well as enneagram 9 I guess.

I think it would be way harder for me as a judger to survive in a perciever world. I'm grateful it's not a perciever world everywhere I go.

I don't know about feelers...i think they could get accustomed...i think that my Te values effiiciency...but I have incorporated the thought that "If you aren't happy at the end of the day...then it's not worth it, it's also lonely" I think Te can compromise.

I think it would be hard for me as an extravert if it were an introverted world.

This stuffs fun