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[MBTI General] INTJ/INFJ relationships

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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I heard a theory about INTJ's extroverted thinking that I thought was interesting (however, I'm not sure how accurate). It said that because INTJs project thinking, what they are thinking or strong opinions or emotions tend to show, whether they are happy or otherwise. Thoughts?
By "project" do you mean "show to the outside world"? As our highest extraverted function, thinking is what we show externally most of the time. Extraverted thinking, in simplest terms, is objective judgment oriented to external facts and criteria. This is the essence of our critical nature, though Ni certainly fuels our understanding of what could happen, both good and bad, and how. It means we must have an opinion on things so we feel they are decided, however temporary or open to revision that opinion may be. I suppose this can make us seem opinionated or even judgmental. Most people don't realize how open to revising these opinions we remain, though revision requires reliable evidence or at least sound logic, not simply an unsupported sentiment that we are wrong.

Emotions are an entirely different matter, however. They are not objective, and most INTJs distrust them. At best we learn to incorporate them as valuable input to our logical decision making processes. We thus tend to keep emotions to ourselves, especially in "public". Of course we are not perfect at this (the INTJ robot stereotype has little accuracy), being subject to the same range of human emotions as everyone else. If an INTJ is being open to you with his/her emotions, however, it is a sure sign that he/she trusts you, values your relationship, and considers you a close friend/relation/etc.
 

autumnandtherain

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By "project" do you mean "show to the outside world"? As our highest extraverted function, thinking is what we show externally most of the time. Extraverted thinking, in simplest terms, is objective judgment oriented to external facts and criteria. This is the essence of our critical nature, though Ni certainly fuels our understanding of what could happen, both good and bad, and how. It means we must have an opinion on things so we feel they are decided, however temporary or open to revision that opinion may be. I suppose this can make us seem opinionated or even judgmental. Most people don't realize how open to revising these opinions we remain, though revision requires reliable evidence or at least sound logic, not simply an unsupported sentiment that we are wrong.

Emotions are an entirely different matter, however. They are not objective, and most INTJs distrust them. At best we learn to incorporate them as valuable input to our logical decision making processes. We thus tend to keep emotions to ourselves, especially in "public". Of course we are not perfect at this (the INTJ robot stereotype has little accuracy), being subject to the same range of human emotions as everyone else. If an INTJ is being open to you with his/her emotions, however, it is a sure sign that he/she trusts you, values your relationship, and considers you a close friend/relation/etc.

Yes, that's what I mean by project.

That's interesting, thanks for your insight. I find that especially intriguing since my INTJ has pretty much always been open with me, even when we were first getting to know each other. I hear that's kind of rare with INTJs. Being an INFJ myself, I found the immediate "realness" and honesty very refreshing.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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That's interesting, thanks for your insight. I find that especially intriguing since my INTJ has pretty much always been open with me, even when we were first getting to know each other. I hear that's kind of rare with INTJs. Being an INFJ myself, I found the immediate "realness" and honesty very refreshing.
I should qualify the general statements I have been making here by pointing out that I can really only speak for myself, though I do know more INTJs than most people, and their examples are mostly consistent with this. Yes, emotional openness tends to be rare in our type, but if your INTJ is more balanced on T/F, that may account for his greater openness from the start. I will be very open with certain people about certain things, while saying nothing about other topics or areas of my life. What most people see, then, is real and honest but just a small part of the whole picture.
 

autumnandtherain

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I should qualify the general statements I have been making here by pointing out that I can really only speak for myself, though I do know more INTJs than most people, and their examples are mostly consistent with this. Yes, emotional openness tends to be rare in our type, but if your INTJ is more balanced on T/F, that may account for his greater openness from the start. I will be very open with certain people about certain things, while saying nothing about other topics or areas of my life. What most people see, then, is real and honest but just a small part of the whole picture.

He may very well be more balanced on T/F... If I recall correctly, that was the case. An INTJ with a few F tendencies, I suppose. That makes sense though.

Just curious, are there any types you get along with/connect with particularly well?
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Just curious, are there any types you get along with/connect with particularly well?
I have been able to get along with at least some representatives of most all types. I have noticed more the types that I tend not to get along with. These are primarily SFs, also ENFJs. I seem to get along best with other NTs, some STJs, NFPs and INFJs (not sure why the E/I makes such a difference). I get along with STPs professionally, but don't interact with many socially.
 

greenfairy

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I have been able to get along with at least some representatives of most all types. I have noticed more the types that I tend not to get along with. These are primarily SFs, also ENFJs. I seem to get along best with other NTs, some STJs, NFPs and INFJs (not sure why the E/I makes such a difference). I get along with STPs professionally, but don't interact with many socially.
I think the shared Ni dominance contributes an understanding and common outlook, whereas ENFJs' dominant Fe clashes with both Te and Fi, and must be subservient to Ni to understand. Inferior Ti would also be sensitive to Te criticism.
 

Ene

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I heard a theory about INTJ's extroverted thinking that I thought was interesting (however, I'm not sure how accurate). It said that because INTJs project thinking, what they are thinking or strong opinions or emotions tend to show, whether they are happy or otherwise. Thoughts?


I have been working closely with an INTJ on a writing project. Actually, I have TWO INTJ writer friends. One writes historical pieces for history buff magazines and the other writes articles for martial arts magazines and is composing a manual on knife fighting [for which he actually uses me in several of the photos].Currently, he is also working on a small book about spirituality, which is the project I'm helping him on, which means he calls me often and that we have become good friends, not only that, he's my grand master, so we have an ongoing teacher-student relationship. At any rate, although on the surface he doesn't seem to "feel" the guy is committed to those people and ideas that he values and he's loyal to them. How can I not admire that? He's a man after my own heart. The other fellow is the same way. I saw the man grieve over the death of an ox.

I am trying to establish that I am well acquainted with two INTJ males and find that they both share some things in common. Both are thorough, meticulous and methodical. Both are decisive and cunning. Both are highly intelligent. Both have an off-beat and witty sense of humor. Neither of them are very good at laughing, [but I can make an INTJ laugh. It comes from hanging out with them and learning which buttons to push.]. Neither of them get their feathers ruffled easily. So, I'm thinking INTJs are like any other type in that there are some who are healthy and balanced and awesome and there are some who are imbalanced and unkind and capable of global annihilation. They're like blackberries. You just have to pick the good ones and leave the sour ones on the vine a little longer.

Both are positive people for the most part [if you put aside the whole ex-assassin thing for one of them, and the whole being an x-member of special forces for the other]. Anyway, my point is that for the most part, they are just peaceful people and they tend to get excited mostly about their ideas, their thinking. One of them [knife fighter expert] even records messages on his answering machine designed to let people know what he's thinking and to challenge the listener to think. I have noticed that NTJs do tend to have a confrontational side and they don't mind a good debate. In fact, I think they kind of get a high off a debate.

So, yes, I do think an INTJ/INFJ relationship could be a beautiful thing, provided both partners were objective, unselfish and mature. But then again, maybe that's the key to any good relationship, between any two types?
 

autumnandtherain

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I think the shared Ni dominance contributes an understanding and common outlook, whereas ENFJs' dominant Fe clashes with both Te and Fi, and must be subservient to Ni to understand. Inferior Ti would also be sensitive to Te criticism.
Hmm, that's true.

I have been working closely with an INTJ on a writing project. Actually, I have TWO INTJ writer friends. One writes historical pieces for history buff magazines and the other writes articles for martial arts magazines and is composing a manual on knife fighting [for which he actually uses me in several of the photos].Currently, he is also working on a small book about spirituality, which is the project I'm helping him on, which means he calls me often and that we have become good friends, not only that, he's my grand master, so we have an ongoing teacher-student relationship. At any rate, although on the surface he doesn't seem to "feel" the guy is committed to those people and ideas that he values and he's loyal to them. How can I not admire that? He's a man after my own heart. The other fellow is the same way. I saw the man grieve over the death of an ox.

I am trying to establish that I am well acquainted with two INTJ males and find that they both share some things in common. Both are thorough, meticulous and methodical. Both are decisive and cunning. Both are highly intelligent. Both have an off-beat and witty sense of humor. Neither of them are very good at laughing, [but I can make an INTJ laugh. It comes from hanging out with them and learning which buttons to push.]. Neither of them get their feathers ruffled easily. So, I'm thinking INTJs are like any other type in that there are some who are healthy and balanced and awesome and there are some who are imbalanced and unkind and capable of global annihilation. They're like blackberries. You just have to pick the good ones and leave the sour ones on the vine a little longer.

Both are positive people for the most part [if you put aside the whole ex-assassin thing for one of them, and the whole being an x-member of special forces for the other]. Anyway, my point is that for the most part, they are just peaceful people and they tend to get excited mostly about their ideas, their thinking. One of them [knife fighter expert] even records messages on his answering machine designed to let people know what he's thinking and to challenge the listener to think. I have noticed that NTJs do tend to have a confrontational side and they don't mind a good debate. In fact, I think they kind of get a high off a debate.

So, yes, I do think an INTJ/INFJ relationship could be a beautiful thing, provided both partners were objective, unselfish and mature. But then again, maybe that's the key to any good relationship, between any two types?

It's a beautiful thing to make an INTJ laugh. :)

That's really very interesting. I suppose if they are a "healthy" INTJ, their T/F functions are more balanced, they're mature, etc, then they're pretty easy to get along with for the most part.

My INTJ definitely loves a good debate about almost anything. I don't really debate with him because I don't find it particularly enjoyable and I'm not very good at it, but we do talk in depth on those kinds of subjects which seems to satisfy him. On any other subject, he seems to be careful not to ruffle too many feathers, but he can be blunt, and he definitely says what he means (one of the things I admire about him).

Very true!
 

CuriousFeeling

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From my personal experiences, the intimacy factor between INFJ and INTJ is quite ferocious and deviant. Inferior Se definitely influences a hedonistic and animalistic dynamic. The thing that I found lacking in the relationship was the emotional support, especially when I was having emotional ups and downs. INTJs focus on solving problems, whereas INFJs focus on tending to their partner's heart. In discussions, INTJs often get involved in debates, so otherwise peaceful INFJs that seek consensus might not feel 100% comfortable in this situation. Sometimes I would have heated arguments about caring for people involved in a situation, as well as showing support for theories for theory sake. INTJs will dismantle this, even if they are romantically involved with you. So be prepared to have your values challenged. It may rile you up a bit. Compromise is seldom in their vocabulary. :p

INTJs are very very selective as to who they show their affections to. They can be sweet when they really care about you. But it isn't soft and squishy warm Fe love, though. INTJ Fi based affection feels different to me than Fe. The affections will be focused on you and your INTJ partner, with very little regard to anyone else. INTJs focus on you and them in the relationship, rather than taking in the rest of the family and friends. Fe looks to harmonize and get everyone to get along, whereas INTJ Fi is perfectly okay being alone in their personal pursuits. If you're looking for someone who will help you to deviate from being bound to pleasing others, which can be an issue with us INFJs and the infamous martyr complex, then an INTJ would help you develop even more individualism. But if you're searching for consensus, then an INTJ would challenge that. Potential issue with regards to aux Fe vs. tert. Fi dynamic.

But, even with these challenges, the connection with INTJs are rewarding. Getting involved in Ni-based meta discussions can be liberating. INTJs are helpful in pointing out steps to realize your goals. There may be factors irl that you as an INFJ may have missed out. INTJs come up with strategies to get there. Be prepared for them to bluntly tell you if something will not work, though. Even when they love you, they will still offer constructive criticism. But the meta-discussions are well worth it. It usually helps when you two have a common passion to build off of.

There's overall a good dynamic, but be prepared for bluntness.
 

autumnandtherain

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Something I thought of, and I wonder if this could be why my INTJ doesn't seem to have that cold or sarcastic exterior that most people tend to associate with INTJs (however true or not). Would instinctual variants have any affect on that? I think he might be sx dominant, probably sx/sp.
 

Coriolis

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Something I thought of, and I wonder if this could be why my INTJ doesn't seem to have that cold or sarcastic exterior that most people tend to associate with INTJs (however true or not). Would instinctual variants have any affect on that? I think he might be sx dominant, probably sx/sp.
A reasonable speculation. Cold and sarcastic is fairly common for INTJs, but few seem to be SX first. I'm not that familiar with enneagram, though; others will have more reliable insight.
 

five sounds

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Something I thought of, and I wonder if this could be why my INTJ doesn't seem to have that cold or sarcastic exterior that most people tend to associate with INTJs (however true or not). Would instinctual variants have any affect on that? I think he might be sx dominant, probably sx/sp.

My INTJ is an sx-dom. He's got a little sarcasm and coldness, but it's usually overshadowed by his genuine concern for his relationships. He's really worked to keep those things in check through past girlfriends, dealing with family, etc. For him, it usually comes off in a joking way, but you can tell there's some truth in there. He says that when he was younger, he had a hard time socially and sometimes pissed off teachers because he was a little more raw INTJ sarcastic and cold. The sx comes into play because his priorities lie in his relationships, so he's been internally motivated to adjust his behavior to foster strong bonds with the people he cares about. He's not SO though, so he still lets the sarcasm fly when the stakes are purely social, and will have little effect on his inner circle.
 

Zarathustra

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Something I thought of, and I wonder if this could be why my INTJ doesn't seem to have that cold or sarcastic exterior that most people tend to associate with INTJs (however true or not). Would instinctual variants have any affect on that? I think he might be sx dominant, probably sx/sp.

Yeah, I'm sx dom, and, well, I dunno, people perceive me in all kinds of fucking ways, often projecting their issues onto me, but there are definitely people who probably think I am a cold, hard robot (generally, coworkers who don't know me well), and then there are the people who know me. I can be extremely expressive, extremely loud, extremely friendly, anything, really - the one quality that is pretty unanimously used to describe me is "intense" - I just am very selective about how I let that stuff out.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Yeah, I'm sx dom, and, well, I dunno, people perceive me in all kinds of fucking ways, often projecting their issues onto me, but there are definitely people who probably think I am a cold, hard robot (generally, coworkers who don't know me well), and then there are the people who know me. I can be extremely expressive, extremely loud, extremely friendly, anything, really - the one quality that is pretty unanimously used to describe me is "intense" - I just am very selective about how I let that stuff out.
The extremes of expression I see even here through barebones text make you seem more "hot", quite the opposite of cold and robotic. It is part of what can make you seem more ENTJ, or even 8-ish, though those may not be your actual/core types.
 

Zarathustra

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The extremes of expression I see even here through barebones text make you seem more "hot", quite the opposite of cold and robotic. It is part of what can make you seem more ENTJ, or even 8-ish, though those may not be your actual/core types.

Yeah, understandable.

But the two people here who know me best would both say I'm an introvert.

In addition to sx/so being a factor:

Sun conjunct Pluto

There is a distinct intensity to people born under a Sun-Pluto conjunction. Self-knowledge and psychological transformation are their goals. Because the ego is attached to the transformative Pluto, these people undergo many periods of self-renewal. They submit themselves to frequent periods of intense self-analysis.

Perhaps even more obvious than Sun-Pluto people's intensity is their distaste for superficiality, and their ability to "read" others almost instantly, tapping into their motivations effortlessly. They quickly read between the lines, and although this helps them to experience a deeper dimension of existence, the focus may be a little too dark or negative. They are determined to uncover the truth, but when this aspect is challenged by other planets, this "truth" may be biased on the side of negativity. They can be so obsessed to prove that something is wrong, and that things are not as they appear, that it becomes an obsession. In fact, they can be very self-destructive. This is largely due to a fear that they are being taken advantage of or being lied to. Refusing to accept things at face value and mistrusting others' motivations can lead these people to work hard at proving these fears! The result can be self-fulfilling prophecies, and the natives can feel very much alone. People born under the Sun-Pluto conjunction need to consciously work on this tendency to search for the negative. It is quite an experience to watch a person with Sun-Pluto in their charts finally uncover a wrongdoing. It's almost as if they are reborn and entirely relieved! Take for an example a Sun-Pluto person who is married and suspects his spouse is having an affair. The suspicion can be all-encompassing, and uncovering the truth takes on a life of its own. When the truth is finally uncovered, there is a huge sense of release. This is not to say that the truth isn't painful to these people. It is. But the period of "not knowing" (but suspecting) was even more painful!

On the same lines, there is an expression, "What you don't know can't hurt you". Sun-Pluto people don't agree. For them, what they don't know (but suspect)*can*hurt them--to the point of obsession. It hurts to need to know the truth, and to be suspicious just because things seem to be "too good to be true" or too happy.

It is important for Sun-Pluto people to recognize their self-destructive behaviors. With the conjunction, these people live and breathe Pluto. With any conjunction to the Sun, the planet is so instinctive that it can be hard to even identify with it. It can easily be one's "blind spot". But identifying the qualities of that planet is the first step to mindful living. With Sun-Pluto, the first step is to identify the Pluto energy in one's life, and then to channel it into positive avenues. There is a strong desire for an added dimension of experience in the life. Ordinary and accepting is boring to Sun-Pluto people. They need more, and they can attract challenges in their lives--life-changing ones--because of this hunger for another layer of experience. They need to learn to let go of things in their lives that are preventing them from moving forward. Positive channels for Pluto energy can be such things as research (where their skills as "detectives" can be put to good use) or counseling (where their ability to understand people is appreciated).

These people attach meaning to even the most ordinary of experiences. They often have much sexual vitality and passion. In fact, the orgasm itself has the qualities of emotional intensity and concentration, as well as a death/rebirth experience (sometimes referred to as the "little death"), that is very Plutonic. These people are capable of profound insights, and they usually possess healing powers. They're talented at getting to the heart of the matter, or finding the "bottom line", and their lives are likely to be fascinating. These people are learning to be fearless. They may struggle with this at times, but they might find that conquering their fear of their own power, or their own "dark side" is most of the battle.
 

Coriolis

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Yeah, understandable.

But the two people here who know me best would both say I'm an introvert.
I never doubted this, just pointing out how obvious the distinction is, even to people like me who don't know you well. We often paint everyone in a given type with the same brush, which may be reasonable to a point, but it is worthwhile to consider the distinctions.
 

autumnandtherain

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My INTJ is an sx-dom. He's got a little sarcasm and coldness, but it's usually overshadowed by his genuine concern for his relationships. He's really worked to keep those things in check through past girlfriends, dealing with family, etc. For him, it usually comes off in a joking way, but you can tell there's some truth in there. He says that when he was younger, he had a hard time socially and sometimes pissed off teachers because he was a little more raw INTJ sarcastic and cold. The sx comes into play because his priorities lie in his relationships, so he's been internally motivated to adjust his behavior to foster strong bonds with the people he cares about. He's not SO though, so he still lets the sarcasm fly when the stakes are purely social, and will have little effect on his inner circle.

Yeah, I'm sx dom, and, well, I dunno, people perceive me in all kinds of fucking ways, often projecting their issues onto me, but there are definitely people who probably think I am a cold, hard robot (generally, coworkers who don't know me well), and then there are the people who know me. I can be extremely expressive, extremely loud, extremely friendly, anything, really - the one quality that is pretty unanimously used to describe me is "intense" - I just am very selective about how I let that stuff out.

Yeah, I can see how other people who aren't close to him could maybe see him as more cold, but all of that disappears when you start talking to him. He can be a little blunt/brutally honest at times, but I value that, so it's not really something that bothers me. As for INTJs appearing cold before you get to know them, I'm an INFJ, and even with Fe I can come across that way. I've had co-workers tell me that they thought I was a jerk at first even though I'm really nice, because I don't really talk to people much at first. I think it's mostly because I'm a little shy, and more in-my-head, and I feel the need to suppress my Fe at work sometimes since I'm in a more Thinker-driven work environment.

I'd also be interested to hear if there's anyone on here who is an SO INTJ... I imagine that doesn't happen often.
 

a1668852

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From the INTJ side I can assure you that all of this is true. We are just highly selective, and obviously not for everyone. If you cannot deal with snarkiness, sarcasm, cynicism, or bluntness, you probably won't do well with an INTJ. If that doesn't drive you away however, you may stay around long enough to find that mutual understanding and connection. We do make an effort to rein those qualities in around people we really care about, and it is often said that those close to us see an entirely different side from everyone else.

Yes, if we decide that we want to let you in, then as long as you don't betray our loyalty, you have a friend/lover for life. The public INTJ may appear silent, judgemental amd sarcastic, but the private one, that few people see can be very different.
 
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