[MBTI General] How alike are NTs and SPs?

[RaptorWizard]

This thread isn't about me, but [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] used to think I was an NT, and now he thinks I'm an SP; I need to figure out the similarities and the differences between the 2 temperaments.

This is how I see the Rationalists (NTs) and the Artisans (SPs) in relation to each other (these points are very open to any changes):

Similarities:
1. Use all the tools at their disposal and will apply a variety of methods or whatever works regardless of past precedents.
2. Are very good at adapting to all kinds of contexts and shaping their surroundings in accordance with their vision.
3. Have good intuitive abilities and are adept at forseeing immanent transformations along with likely effects.
4. Like to think about things and consider a wide range of possibilities before coming to conclusions.

Differences:
1. SPs prefer things that are oriented towards action and have applications; NTs are okay with purely theoretical subjects.
2. SPs trust their intuitions like an instinct and act on them fast; NTs are more questioning and hypothesizing with their intuitions.
3. SPs are very observant of their surroundings and attentive to external stimuli; NTs live life much more in their heads.
4. SPs tend to be more realistic and have good common sense; NTs can be very metaphysical and shoot off onto crazy theories.

I'm mentioning some SPs and NTs on my friends list to get some good input, and anyone else of any type is also welcome to comment!
NTs: [MENTION=6643]Fluffywolf[/MENTION] [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] [MENTION=14676]Ism[/MENTION] [MENTION=5857]LunaLuminosity[/MENTION] [MENTION=13589]Mal+[/MENTION] [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] [MENTION=9883]Redbone[/MENTION] [MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION]
SPs: [MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION] [MENTION=15886]superunknown[/MENTION] [MENTION=9913]wheelchairdoug[/MENTION]

 

[greenfairy]

Interesting thread! I think your observations are correct.

My ISTP friend likes to read a lot about economics, which one might think is the property of an NT; but he does it I think with a mindset of how the economic state will affect his and others' lives rather than simply analyzing the system. He is interested in the state of the world in general. I think this is an S trait as much as an N trait; an N would likely abstract things more, connecting their observations to other ideas and systems. Tertiary Ni allows them to analyze a system in a more holistic way, to get a general picture of the world by seeing little underlying trends and connections; whereas an Ni dominant would build whole systems of thought around these, with Se dom/aux they are subservient to the Se focus on concrete facts and a present snapshot of the real world. As well as action, I think SP's are focused on the current moment and the immediate future. They are very steady in their energy. With their tertiary Ni they can be good at predicting the future. An NT will think about future possibilities a lot more, though, and sometimes live in them more than the present.

Edit: Oh and one more thing: I don't know if I can make a generalization based on this, but all three of the ISP's I know are interested in conspiracy theories.

 

[highlander]

This thread isn't about me, but [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] used to think I was an NT, and now he thinks I'm an SP; I need to figure out the similarities and the differences between the 2 temperaments.

This is how I see the Rationalists (NTs) and the Artisans (SPs) in relation to each other (these points are very open to any changes):

Similarities:
1. Use all the tools at their disposal and will apply a variety of methods or whatever works regardless of past precedents.
2. Are very good at adapting to all kinds of contexts and shaping their surroundings in accordance with their vision.
3. Have good intuitive abilities and are adept at forseeing immanent transformations along with likely effects.
4. Like to think about things and consider a wide range of possibilities before coming to conclusions.

Differences:
1. SPs prefer things that are oriented towards action and have applications; NTs are okay with purely theoretical subjects.
2. SPs trust their intuitions like an instinct and act on them fast; NTs are more questioning and hypothesizing with their intuitions.
3. SPs are very observant of their surroundings and attentive to external stimuli; NTs live life much more in their heads.
4. SPs tend to be more realistic and have good common sense; NTs can be very metaphysical and shoot off onto crazy theories.

I'm mentioning some SPs and NTs on my friends list to get some good input, and anyone else of any type is also welcome to comment!
NTs: [MENTION=6643]Fluffywolf[/MENTION] [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] [MENTION=14676]Ism[/MENTION] [MENTION=5857]LunaLuminosity[/MENTION] [MENTION=13589]Mal+[/MENTION] [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] [MENTION=9883]Redbone[/MENTION] [MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION]
SPs: [MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION] [MENTION=15886]superunknown[/MENTION] [MENTION=9913]wheelchairdoug[/MENTION]

SPs all have Se as either their dominant or auxiliary function. They are heavily focused in the present and engaging in their surroundings immediately or spontaneously. The "intuition" is highly based on that sensing of the current moment. An example would be that your ESFP/ISFP girlfriend would always know when you're looking at another girl because they are so observant of or engaged in the current moment. An Si type might not notice as easily.

NTs don't always have functions in common. For example, INTP/ENTP share no common functions with ENTJ/ INTJ. INTJs, who have inferior Se, would use that function, though less often and less effectively than an SP. It would come in a "burst" and then it's gone vs. consistent highly functioning use. It's interesting in that Nardi says amongst his older subjects, INTJs brain scans look very similar to ISFPs. They seem to converge. They both have the same functions but in a different order. As the lesser functions develop, it could cause them to look more similar. The intuition of an Ni dom is based on a vast storehouse of information that has been gathered over a long period of time. It's not especially connected to the current moment. Ne types are more intuiting emerging patterns vs. focusing on the here and now The key thing is that the NTs are oriented towards the future and SPs the present.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Interesting thread! I think your observations are correct.

Well, I guess that's good, so maybe we're getting somewhere!

My ISTP friend likes to read a lot about economics, which one might think is the property of an NT; but he does it I think with a mindset of how the economic state will affect his and others' lives rather than simply analyzing the system. He is interested in the state of the world in general. I think this is an S trait as much as an N trait; an N would likely abstract things more, connecting their observations to other ideas and systems. Tertiary Ni allows them to analyze a system in a more holistic way, to get a general picture of the world by seeing little underlying trends and connections; whereas an Ni dominant would build whole systems of thought around these, with Se dom/aux they are subservient to the Se focus on concrete facts and a present snapshot of the real world. As well as action, I think SP's are focused on the current moment and the immediate future. They are very steady in their energy. With their tertiary Ni they can be good at predicting the future. An NT will think about future possibilities a lot more, though, and sometimes live in them more than the present.

Okay, so your SP friends are more into applications, like I originally said, and the world we can interact with at large. They both can see the connections between things and the possibilities, but the NTs will build integral models out of these pieces, whereas the SPs immerse themselves more into the act.

Edit: Oh and one more thing: I don't know if I can make a generalization based on this, but all three of the ISP's I know are interested in conspiracy theories.

Hm, that's interesting, so they can dig funny holes here and there, dive into the unknown.

SPs all have Se as either their dominant or auxiliary function. They are heavily focused in the present and engaging in their surroundings immediately or spontaneously. The "intuition" is highly based on that sensing of the current moment. An example would be that your ESFP/ISFP girlfriend would always know when you're looking at another girl because they are so observant of or engaged in the current moment. An Si type might not notice as easily.

Okay, so the SPs can catch onto details in the present situation and make inferences from them quite adeptly, but like your SFP example, maybe the type of SP influences what they're looking for.

NTs don't always have functions in common. For example, INTP/ENTP share no common functions with ENTJ/ INTJ. INTJs, who have inferior Se, would use that function, though less often and less effectively than an SP. It would come in a "burst" and then it's gone vs. consistent highly functioning use.

Ya, I thought about this as well, how SPs all have Se, but NTs can have different functions altogether. Still though, like you mentioned, the S function won't be quite as strong in NTs.

It's interesting in that Nardi says amongst his older subjects, INTJs brain scans look very similar to ISFPs. They seem to converge. They both have the same functions but in a different order. As the lesser functions develop, it could cause them to look more similar.

I read in Nardi's research that we each have some of our opposite type within us, since they share the same functions. Maybe NiFi or FiNi are more individualized and into inner states of being, perhaps even having visionary or artistic inclinations.

The intuition of an Ni dom is based on a vast storehouse of information that has been gathered over a long period of time. It's not especially connected to the current moment. Ne types are more intuiting emerging patterns vs. focusing on the here and now The key thing is that the NTs are oriented towards the future and SPs the present.

Ni's it sounds like will stack up things up, put experiential results together, or as Newton says (who I often see listed as an INTJ), "stand on the shoulders of giants". Ne's must be better at seeing connections across contexts, maybe thinking in terms of definitions or categories. I guess this might make Ne more 'static' and Ni more 'dynamic', at least in NTs.

 

[Jaguar]

As the lesser functions develop, it could cause them to look more similar.

I'm surprised after all these years more people don't think about other factors, especially age. I believe it was Naomi L. Quenk in the book Essentials of Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Assessment who mentioned that as a person develops, it becomes increasingly difficult for someone to be typed. When my car is running smoothly, it's not as if all the parts are rattling. In fact, I don't notice a thing. It's only when something is not working well on my car that I notice it.

The same could be said of people. Just because you notice something about someone doesn't mean it's their dominant function.
Case in point: For several years I have tested people with some quotes from this forum. 100% guessed NTJs and yet all the quotes are from INFPs. I recall my favorite answer: "Definitely INTJ!"

I'm on a different computer, so I have to go on memory, but I think one of the INFP quotes was: "I have to have sourced Te information backing things up, I don't just believe what someone says."
That's how that person got typed: "Definitely INTJ."

 

[greenfairy]

I'm surprised after all these years more people don't think about other factors, especially age. I believe it was Naomi L. Quenk in the book Essentials of Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Assessment who mentioned that as a person develops, it becomes increasingly difficult for someone to be typed. When my car is running smoothly, it's not as if all the parts are rattling. In fact, I don't notice a thing. It's only when something is not working well on my car that I notice it.

The same could be said of people. Just because you notice something about someone doesn't mean it's their dominant function.
Case in point: For several years I have tested people with some quotes from this forum. 100% guessed NTJs and yet all the quotes are from INFPs. I recall my favorite answer: "Definitely INTJ!"

I'm on a different computer, so I have to go on memory, but I think one of the INFP quotes was: "I have to have sourced Te information backing things up, I don't just believe what someone says."
That's how that person got typed: "Definitely INTJ."

Yes, I've been thinking and pointing this out as well. Good experiment.

 

[Society]

I've noticed so many (presumably Ni-heavy) ISTPs that fit more in the general description of NTs then they do for SPs...

 

[RaptorWizard]

I've noticed so many (presumably Ni-heavy) ISTPs that fit more in the general description of NTs then they do for SPs...

What about ISFPs? Could they look more like NFs if their Ni is strong enough?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Tertiary Ni allows them to analyze a system in a more holistic way, to get a general picture of the world by seeing little underlying trends and connections; whereas an Ni dominant would build whole systems of thought around these, with Se dom/aux they are subservient to the Se focus on concrete facts and a present snapshot of the real world.

You mean Ni chain links vs. Ni foundations? Interesting.

 

[greenfairy]

You mean Ni chain links vs. Ni foundations? Interesting.

Yeah, that's how it appears to me; Se puts a picture together of a lot of concrete data, like a photo collage- and then Ni fills in hidden details like painting over the photos based on their meaning and interconnections. The focus is still on Se though; Ni-Se would do the opposite. They experience the world and form an abstract picture in their minds, with concrete data to support it, of which they are never fully aware. The details are there, but you would have to "zoom in" like on a photograph, one section at a time.

 

[Redbone]

What about ISFPs? Could they look more like NFs if their Ni is strong enough?

Yeah. INFP or ISTP because ISFPs never look like ISFPs.

List looks good to me.

 

[Society]

What about ISFPs? Could they look more like NFs if their Ni is strong enough?

possibly - maybe we should do an exchange program where each group adopts an affiliated member from another group

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yeah, that's how it appears to me; Se puts a picture together of a lot of concrete data, like a photo collage- and then Ni fills in hidden details like painting over the photos based on their meaning and interconnections. The focus is still on Se though; Ni-Se would do the opposite. They experience the world and form an abstract picture in their minds, with concrete data to support it, of which they are never fully aware. The details are there, but you would have to "zoom in" like on a photograph, one section at a time.

That makes a lot of sense, actually. That explains how INTJs can take such a detailed view of things at times, and then come up with things that make me go "I don't know where that came from."

Ne-si seems like it exists less harmoniously, at least within myself.

 

[greenfairy]

That makes a lot of sense, actually. That explains how INTJs can take such a detailed view of things at times, and then come up with things that make me go "I don't know where that came from."

Ne-si seems like it exists less harmoniously, at least within myself.

Maybe Ne-Si is like the internet, and Si-Ne is like a card catalog in a library?

And I wonder what function/s I'm using when I make these comparisons...

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Maybe Ne-Si is like the internet, and Si-Ne is like a card catalog in a library?

And I wonder what function/s I'm using when I make these comparisons...

So, in my case, an exhaustive, limitless sense of connections linkages and compisitions between detailed records? Unlike with Se-Ni.... the links predominate.

I wonder if that's Ni.... I struggle to come up with these metaphors... It's very, very difficult for me. Even digesting them takes work.

 

[greenfairy]

So, in my case, an exhaustive, limitless sense of connections linkages and compisitions between detailed records? Unlike with Se-Ni.... the links predominate.

I wonder if that's Ni.... I struggle to come up with these metaphors... It's very, very difficult for me. Even digesting them takes work.

Oh maybe so. I used to think that was Ne, but it probably is Ni if you have trouble with it. I guess to find out we'd have to study Ni and Ne users and see if they use metaphors a lot. I find it hard to describe things without using comparisons. Like if someone asks me what the Japanese curry is like, I don't know what to say; I just know how it tastes. I say it's like Indian curry but tastes more like beef stew. My coworker (who I suspect is ISFJ) comes up with all these nice adjectives. I think so much in comparisons that my vocabulary for adjectives is rather small compared to some people, I think. I'll have to ask my ENTP coworker how she describes things, or just pay attention.

 

[Stansmith]

Yeah. INFP or ISTP because ISFPs never look like ISFPs.

List looks good to me.

ISFPs tend to blend in better than INFPs and are more sensual. They're also usually too colorful and Fi-ish to be ISTP.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Oh maybe so. I used to think that was Ne, but it probably is Ni if you have trouble with it. I guess to find out we'd have to study Ni and Ne users and see if they use metaphors a lot. I find it hard to describe things without using comparisons. Like if someone asks me what the Japanese curry is like, I don't know what to say; I just know how it tastes. I say it's like Indian curry but tastes more like beef stew. .

I think I can do better at coming up with metaphors if it's something concrete and external (an object).. When it's something that only exists as a mental construct, it's harder to paint a picture.

I can come up with novel metaphors to describe a taste... that's not difficult. Trying to explain something in my head, though.... I always feel like whatever metaphors I use distort it too much.

 

[Evil Otter]

Differences:
1. SPs prefer things that are oriented towards action and have applications; NTs are okay with purely theoretical subjects.
2. SPs trust their intuitions like an instinct and act on them fast; NTs are more questioning and hypothesizing with their intuitions.
3. SPs are very observant of their surroundings and attentive to external stimuli; NTs live life much more in their heads.
4. SPs tend to be more realistic and have good common sense; NTs can be very metaphysical and shoot off onto crazy theories.

Well 1, 3, and 4 absolutely spot on. Dad and older brother are both ESTPs and those three observations could not be more true. 2 however while I think it's true in the context of general inventions and how we go about trivial things it can seem like NTs go the other way and blend in very much with their SP counterparts on practical matter. After all, we live in an S world, and sometime we just have to shut up and color.

 

[The Great One]

This thread isn't about me, but [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] used to think I was an NT, and now he thinks I'm an SP; I need to figure out the similarities and the differences between the 2 temperaments.

This is how I see the Rationalists (NTs) and the Artisans (SPs) in relation to each other (these points are very open to any changes):

Similarities:
1. Use all the tools at their disposal and will apply a variety of methods or whatever works regardless of past precedents.
2. Are very good at adapting to all kinds of contexts and shaping their surroundings in accordance with their vision.
3. Have good intuitive abilities and are adept at forseeing immanent transformations along with likely effects.
4. Like to think about things and consider a wide range of possibilities before coming to conclusions.

Differences:
1. SPs prefer things that are oriented towards action and have applications; NTs are okay with purely theoretical subjects.
2. SPs trust their intuitions like an instinct and act on them fast; NTs are more questioning and hypothesizing with their intuitions.
3. SPs are very observant of their surroundings and attentive to external stimuli; NTs live life much more in their heads.
4. SPs tend to be more realistic and have good common sense; NTs can be very metaphysical and shoot off onto crazy theories.

I'm mentioning some SPs and NTs on my friends list to get some good input, and anyone else of any type is also welcome to comment!
NTs: [MENTION=6643]Fluffywolf[/MENTION] [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] [MENTION=14676]Ism[/MENTION] [MENTION=5857]LunaLuminosity[/MENTION] [MENTION=13589]Mal+[/MENTION] [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] [MENTION=9883]Redbone[/MENTION] [MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION]
SPs: [MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION] [MENTION=15886]superunknown[/MENTION] [MENTION=9913]wheelchairdoug[/MENTION]

No I'm still not sure about you. You are either an ISTP in an Ni<TI loop or you're an INTP.