[Fe] ENTP/INTP...Feeling'' Invaded'' By Fe?

[ummm]

So l talk with a few INFJ's and am fully aware of how great the pairing is supposed to be.

l think the reaction to Fe will vary greatly, personally. l like an INFJ as a casual friend but find l am VERY quickly drained by the Fe.

For a few reasons that could be situation specific but most likely somewhat common-

The Fe user tries to tell you what your own feelings are, when you haven't even been thinking about them yourself.

The Fe user may have an exaggerated reaction to any emotion you do display or analyse your emotions too much. Maybe this most importantly:

l feel like the Fe user thinks about my emotions while we don't speak and it makes me feel like my inner privacy is being compromised...this is confirmed by their tendency to share things with me that suggest they've been thinking about me while we don't speak.

The Fe user requires more consistent display of Fe from you than you can give.

For the record, l'm not an NT who shuns emotions at all and l find by doing so, we only draw people in who think we're emotionally crippled and need to be nurtured. l don't seem to benefit from nurturing, l am a woman which doesn't mean that l am the nurturing one necessarily...but something about being nurtured feels off to me.

l'd rather be independent and l actually don't mind displaying moderate levels of Fe to a partner.
l simply don't feel right at all on the receiving end of Fe.

Wondering how this varies.

 

[Such Irony]

I relate to this. I dislike having others trying to psychoanalyze my emotions. Or when people want me to be more emotionally expressive than I am comfortable.

I also want to add that some dominant Fe types are more gushy with emotions than I'm comfortable with. For instance, they will over dramatize things, make things sound way better or worse than they actually are just for effect. Some will also be overly affectionate physically when I just want my own space.

 

[ummm]

I relate to this. I dislike having others trying to psychoanalyze my emotions. Or when people want me to be more emotionally expressive than I am comfortable.

I also want to add that some dominant Fe types are more gushy with emotions than I'm comfortable with. For instance, they will over dramatize things, make things sound way better or worse than they actually are just for effect. Some will also be overly affectionate physically when I just want my own space.

Yea, l just feel like the Fe relation to my lower order Fe misses the mark. The idea is that, they want to ''draw Fe out of me''...it's not something l'm going to have a majorly adverse reaction to, but it seems to miss the entire point of how l function.

Which is primarily in Ti or Ne, compromising that, l think compromises my mental state lol. l see other INTPs and especially ENTPs seem to enjoy it but l wonder how much is for show.

oh, and definitely like you mentioned, the exaggerated emotions. l start to feel like the entire dynamic is more for show than anything else.

l wouldn't really say my own emotions need ''developing'' though so maybe NTPs who need to develop their's will feel a benefit from this dynamic.

 

[sulfit]

Wondering how this varies.

This is more common among INTPs than ENTPs. There is nothing in MBTI to suggest so but the socionics functional model sheds some light on what is happening here. In INTPs the inferior Fe function is a contact one which means that INTPs prefer to deal with the emotional stuff themselves, rather than have somebody explicitly point out their emotions for them. For IxFJs Fe is also contact function, and when two contact functions meet it results in a kind of overheating of the same parameter. If you haven't studied socionics model A then none of this would make any sense, of course, it was only after careful study of the subject that it became clear to me why IxFJs and IxTPs cause emotional overheating in each other.

In case of ENTPs here the situation is different. ENTPs are in mirage relations with INFJs. One of the qualities of mirage relations is that partners cannot take each other very seriously and will sometimes invade each other's space and interests. Some INFJs have commented in NF forum feeling too overly criticized by ENTP's Ti. It goes both ways.

 

[INTP]

I kinda have a fetish for this kind of stuff as long as it doesent come before i grant them the permission to go that far.

 

[Lexicon]

I relate to this. I dislike having others trying to psychoanalyze my emotions. Or when people want me to be more emotionally expressive than I am comfortable.

I also want to add that some dominant Fe types are more gushy with emotions than I'm comfortable with. For instance, they will over dramatize things, make things sound way better or worse than they actually are just for effect. Some will also be overly affectionate physically when I just want my own space.

^^ this sort of resonates with me, oddly enough.

What's funny is that I've felt similar things about some ENTPs, actually. They have a very "prove me wrong!" manner of approaching topics they're analyzing. It can become quite invasive when the topic is your feelings, trying to understand/get close to you. It feels more like dissection/pushing me into a corner. But then, I'm a bit more emotionally walled off than some NF's, so maybe that in of itself makes some people more inquisitive, or somesuch. It feels like boundaries are stepped upon when they make guesses about how they think I feel/process things, & assert these things as fact- at least in terms of their approach, semantically. It can be draining.

I think to some extent it's reasonable for anyone who gives a damn about you to think about/analyze how a person operates, what motivates them- whether it's while you're around them, or later on, reflecting. There are different languages, roads we take in grasping these things, is all. However, communicating these things, and recognizing how it can impact the other person, vs projecting expectations & soforth on them, is the tricky part, a common pitfall I notice people fall into. And of course, this goes beyond ENTP/INFJ dynamics, as well. It always comes down to being able to sit down and really compare notes, openly. If & when both parties are in a frame of mind to do so.

 

[Society]

What's funny is that I've felt similar things about some ENTPs, actually. They have a very "prove me wrong!" manner of approaching topics they're analyzing.

one of the misconceptions i've noticed is that people think that means demanding to prove a negative - and usually that's not the case - if i am making a demand of someone to do something it means i have already figured out ways they could do it (if the assertion is wrong), so the only thing that's left is putting them in a situation where they would do it. I.E. if someone is on a wheelchair and i theorize they are using it because they can't walk and they claim that they can run, i might challenge them to get off their asses.
an interesting result is a very repetitive misunderstanding of intents, which i've seen with more than my own TP/FJ interaction. for me, its rather obvious - if i am challenging someone to prove me wrong, obviously - i am asking to be proven wrong, i WANT to be wrong. what's not clear about that? should i say please prove me wrong? pretty please? if i was just making assertions to be right then i wouldn't be giving them opportunities to prove me wrong in the first place.
but again and again i've seen NFJs take the challenge as assertions. somehow this doesn't compute easily with the NFJ mindset, for some reason the whole notion of it is very counter intuitive, so all too often the assertion is taken as the intent instead, no questions asked.

which goes back to the whole OP dynamic of feeling like NFJs are deciding what you feel prior to you knowing what you feel. the irony is that this to some extent is how long-standing NFJ/NTP couples end up prospering: the NTP simply empowers the NFJ to decide what they feel for them so that they don't have to explore the more repressed sides of themselves in the first place.

 

[Redbone]

which goes back to the whole OP dynamic of feeling like NFJs are deciding what you feel prior to you knowing what you feel. the irony is that this to some extent is how long-standing NFJ/NTP couples end up prospering: the NTP simply empowers the NFJ to decide what they feel for them so that they don't have to explore the more repressed sides of themselves in the first place.

This sounds so scary to me. Do you really think that's how this dynamic works?

 

[Society]

This sounds so scary to me. Do you really think that's how this dynamic works?

i'm not saying its the only one, but its certainly a variation of it i've observed more than other.

the scary part is that as ugly as it looks, it.. works - and it does so for both parties amazingly well, that neither side experience it as what it is - there's no maliciousness involved, nobody is trying to use anyone as a pawn or manipulate anyone, it just happens:
the NFJ experiences it as genuinely being insightful and trying to get at what the NTP is attempting to get at, the NTP experiences it as a relief when the mystery of those odd things which drive them gets unfolded, and nobody has any complaints.

have you ever tried copycatting the verbal role of an NFJ in a conversation with other NTPs? i have recently tried that a few times in real life, and i've noticed repeatedly that other NTPs (mostly INTPs but at least one other ENTP) are incredibly susceptible to being told what it is that they feel.

have you ever experienced a cathartic sense of resolution from resolving the paradox entailed complete fiction? the mystery in the end of a book or a movie? behind a quest in a game? i think that's the answer right there - this susceptibility results from the Ti's induced ability to get a cathartic experience when something previously mysterious makes sense (regardless if it's actually true), without Se demanding that the answer would be visible in plain sight. while NFJs have constructed a sociological idea of themselves to filter such notions by - crafted out of intents - the equivalent in NTPs isn't quite as sturdy, its something we attempt to figure out, we break and reshape information constructs all the time, and the ego just gets lost as another information construct.

 

[Ism]

Sometimes I play therapist with people and try and tell them how they feel.

There are shades of 'I know what you're feeling more than you do,' though, so I try and avoid it. It's easy to see how that would be a problem with people, and how it kind of undermines a sense of trust.

 

[ummm]

This is more common among INTPs than ENTPs. There is nothing in MBTI to suggest so but the socionics functional model sheds some light on what is happening here. In INTPs the inferior Fe function is a contact one which means that INTPs prefer to deal with the emotional stuff themselves, rather than have somebody explicitly point out their emotions for them. For IxFJs Fe is also contact function, and when two contact functions meet it results in a kind of overheating of the same parameter. If you haven't studied socionics model A then none of this would make any sense, of course, it was only after careful study of the subject that it became clear to me why IxFJs and IxTPs cause emotional overheating in each other.

In case of ENTPs here the situation is different. ENTPs are in mirage relations with INFJs. One of the qualities of mirage relations is that partners cannot take each other very seriously and will sometimes invade each other's space and interests. Some INFJs have commented in NF forum feeling too overly criticized by ENTP's Ti. It goes both ways.

Yeah, l don't know. l don't get this pairing. Weirdly (or maybe not?) l don't have a clash with ENFPs. l don't find the Fi to be an energy vampire and l don't find it to be too irrational either, in the aux position.

At first l thought, maybe l just wasn't using Fe the way an ENTP should be but that model explains me perfectly.

 

[Istbkleta]

If you haven't studied socionics model A ...

Where can I read more in depth (than the usual socionics sites and wikisocio...) about MODEL A only?
Preferably stuff by Augusta or approved by her.

 

[21%]

I'm INFJ and even I sometimes feel invaded by Fe by people who are more Fe than I am. Just saying.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

So l talk with a few INFJ's and am fully aware of how great the pairing is supposed to be.

l think the reaction to Fe will vary greatly, personally. l like an INFJ as a casual friend but find l am VERY quickly drained by the Fe.

I think you identify a number of possible pitfalls in this as an intimate pairing, and it makes sense to keep the INFJ at arms length whenever those are the feelings.

Depending on experience and other factors, some INTPs don't want to process as much emotion and subjectivity as INFJs do, even in detached conversation as a topic. In past relationships I approached this by taking my INTP partner at his word and letting him know that I would limit it to that. After enough time and empathy, some INFJs can adapt to the actuality of their INTP partner rather than blending projection or other expectation into the mix, or even deeper aspects of the INTP that are not welcomed to explore.

When either partner adapts too much it can end up draining to both people. Strangely enough, even if there is no fighting, no conflict, but just too much adapting required, the dynamic can play out subconsciously as conflict that is impossible to describe because it isn't even what most people call passive-aggression. My first relationship of 15 years ended in this manner. I felt it was 100% successful as a friendship, but the more intimate pairing drained both people too much. When two people can't just relax and be their authentic selves, then the pairing simply doesn't work and there is no "fixing it". It's very much like trying to change how tall you are. Friendships can connect the pieces you have in common, but intimate pairing where you co-habitate require more overlap because there is no recovering from being with the person.

 

[sulfit]

Where can I read more in depth (than the usual socionics sites and wikisocio...) about MODEL A only?
Preferably stuff by Augusta or approved by her.

Socionics.us is a good source, these are Augusta's descriptions of information elements translated from Russian:
http://www.socionics.us/works/socion2.shtml#1

Not sure where she wrote about Model A itself, but these have been translated from Russian pages:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Functions-of-the-Socionic-Model-of-the-Psyche
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/6

 

[totent]

I don't think its the expression of emotions that find me out of my comfort zone as much as the desire of the other person to get to "figure me out". There are always complaints about how I am "mysterious" from such people and it is when they try to get into my head and tell me that I ought to be feeling something at a certain time that I feel "choked". Even so, I am told that I can be very helpful in making people feel better and that I can figure things out for them quite accurately..

 

[Synarch]

What's funny is that I've felt similar things about some ENTPs, actually. They have a very "prove me wrong!" manner of approaching topics they're analyzing. It can become quite invasive when the topic is your feelings, trying to understand/get close to you. It feels more like dissection/pushing me into a corner. But then, I'm a bit more emotionally walled off than some NF's, so maybe that in of itself makes some people more inquisitive, or somesuch. It feels like boundaries are stepped upon when they make guesses about how they think I feel/process things, & assert these things as fact- at least in terms of their approach, semantically. It can be draining.

On reflection, in thinking about what you describe as this manner of interaction where the ENTP makes you feel pushed into a corner...maybe it's that ENTPs are particularly clumsy when it comes to establishing intimacy. Once they become interested, they sort of heedlessly stampede all over the object of their interest... lasering with the full blast of jangly "too much at once" energy. Rushing in their typical fashion they can be abrupt, insensitive, and rough... mainly because I suspect they feel uncomfortable. Ironically, I think ENTPs act more aggressive when they feel uncomfortable...particularly when they want someone to like them... not when they're in sales mode, but when they REALLY want someone to like them. Since that need renders them vulnerable they can become really sloppy and intrusive.

TLDR; ENTPs can be awful at taking time with anything, especially getting to know someone they like / being close.

 

[Synarch]

When either partner adapts too much it can end up draining to both people. Strangely enough, even if there is no fighting, no conflict, but just too much adapting required, the dynamic can play out subconsciously as conflict that is impossible to describe because it isn't even what most people call passive-aggression. My first relationship of 15 years ended in this manner. I felt it was 100% successful as a friendship, but the more intimate pairing drained both people too much. When two people can't just relax and be their authentic selves, then the pairing simply doesn't work and there is no "fixing it". It's very much like trying to change how tall you are. Friendships can connect the pieces you have in common, but intimate pairing where you co-habitate require more overlap because there is no recovering from being with the person.

If you have to adapt to get what you need from the other person, it's probably not a good fit, because you can never keep it up.

Many relationships begin like this: you present the best version of yourself while slowing getting comfortable being yourself. If during this process, you cannot become comfortable, it won't work.

 

[Synarch]

which goes back to the whole OP dynamic of feeling like NFJs are deciding what you feel prior to you knowing what you feel. the irony is that this to some extent is how long-standing NFJ/NTP couples end up prospering: the NTP simply empowers the NFJ to decide what they feel for them so that they don't have to explore the more repressed sides of themselves in the first place.

xNFJ types do seem to have this amazing sense of certainty when it comes to identifying another person's feelings. They will tell you in great confidence exactly how you are, despite your arguments to the contrary. They often have great sounding reasons for why they know better than you do. Often they are right, but somehow this makes them neither more tolerant nor more circumspect / respectful of judgment boundaries. They seem to need to form a conclusion about what you feel, especially if it impacts them, which can make their judgments intolerable, given this self-serving dimension.

I find it helpful to simply call them on it with a hearty "back off and let me decide what I feel".

 

[Z Buck McFate]

On reflection, in thinking about what you describe as this manner of interaction where the ENTP makes you feel pushed into a corner...maybe it's that ENTPs are particularly clumsy when it comes to establishing intimacy. Once they become interested, they sort of heedlessly stampede all over the object of their interest... lasering with the full blast of jangly "too much at once" energy. Rushing in their typical fashion they can be abrupt, insensitive, and rough... mainly because I suspect they feel uncomfortable. Ironically, I think ENTPs act more aggressive when they feel uncomfortable...particularly when they want someone to like them... not when they're in sales mode, but when they REALLY want someone to like them. Since that need renders them vulnerable they can become really sloppy and intrusive.

TLDR; ENTPs can be awful at taking time with anything, especially getting to know someone they like / being close.

It isn’t necessarily the tenacity per se, imo. Where that high energy is applied to some argument but still contained within certain boundaries (e.g. not trying to control or influence someone else’s feelings or experience) it can be enthralling.

I dated an ENTP for many years- I always said he could talk circles around me so fast that he could be wrong, be asleep and still ‘win’ arguments. It’s easy enough to shrug off and feel absolutely no ill will when the topic being argued has no bearing on the relationship. It was actually fun when there was no personal investment and I could just sit back in awe. Because once that motor is warmed up there’s no stopping it. But holy hell- when the topic was ‘why something should be done my way’ or ‘why you should feel a certain way about something’ then it’s just suffocating and invasive. It’s about boundaries and entitlement.

And I guess that goes for Fe in FJs as well, really- that it’s about clumsiness with boundaries and entitlement. That clumsiness can reveal how entitled an individual feels to direct others’ feelings or experience. But it can actually be fun to go up against a trained ninja (and get pummeled with Ne) with nothing more than a little plastic cocktail sword- so long as it’s about exploring each other’s experience instead of trying to control it, there can be a lot to learn from it. That distinction is largely intuitive I think (not in an mbti way, but in a more traditional sense of the word).